PatsSoxfan

jmcraney, please pardon my ignorance here. But I need to clarify something before I attempt to do the triangular fix by myself based on your photos. What exactly do you mean by .040 for that verticle gap? I imagine that is a measurement of some sort.

As you know, the dealer did my triangle fix based on your photos. However, I am wondering if they followed the exact instructions with the gaps, etc. From the statements I am reading from those that had the fix done themselves, it appears that the car is now quieter than mine is after the dealer fix (by the way that window sealing kit had no effect at all). I did have some improvement from exterior noise after the dealer did the triangle fix. I just have this feeling, that it can be better if done exactly as instructed by your photos.

Now, my concern is this. Will I have any trouble taking the cover off after the dealer supposed fix? They used some sort of a black sealant. Once I do take it off, do I need to remove any of their sealant before I apply the new sealant. I think you stated you took the triangle cover off a couple times. I really do want to try this by myself. I hope I don't make things worse.

jmcraney

Sorry for the confusion. The .040 refers to a gap that is 40 thousandths of an inch (about 1 mm) - that is about 1/24th of an inch. It is not very large and it may not be consequential - it is sort of an unknown. It could be important because of its shape, sort of like an organ pipe - I still can not explain what exactly yields the great improvement. The best thing is to just squirt some stuff into it and roll on.

As far as whether your dealer did an adequate job: I am very trusting of others and I expect that whoever did it for you made a best effort. When people do stuff like that for you they try to do exactly what they think you want and sometimes they put their brain on standby, so if the instructions are lacking you don't get a good job. I have some indications that dealers have been instructed to not do any fixes like I described and that may have come into play.

Then we get around to whether your expectations are reasonable. Sometimes our assessment of the degree of improvement has a lot to do with how far we have come. In my case things were very bad, so I feel like I have perfection. In your case your situation may not have been very bad initially and now you are at the same place I am. So, I really don't know what to tell you.

If the sealant applied at the dealership has dried into something with the texture of a rubber-band, you should be able to get the trim piece off, scrape off the residue (it doesn't have to be residue free, just get the biggest part of it off) using a wooden tool and redo it as many times as you need to. But, if the sealant is sort of gummy then that is a different sort of problem.

There is little chance that you will do anything that can't be fixed easily. You have to keep in mind that if your car is leased you might get cross with the leasing company.

PatsSoxfan

Thanks again jmcraney! My car is not leased so I am not concerned about that aspect. I am not sure if I'm going to attempt it this weekend or wait until next weekend. I have several graduation parties to go to this weekend, so it may have to wait.

Mike_TX

Here's an idea:

Someone who is doing the triangle fix - please remove your triangles and then drive the car (ideally up to highway speeds) and see how much wind noise is attributable to the openings behind this trim under completely exposed conditions.

That might be a good way to establish the extent to which the openings are noise makers!

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jmcraney

Mike_TX,

I like your idea. We may have to do it a little differently to get something meaningful. Here is why. I expect that anyone who is pulling their trim off suspects that they have a problem. So, if they drive down the highway with the trim off and the problem is no worse then can we deduce that that area is not a contributor to wind noise (can awful be made worse). If the problem is much worse then would we think that nothing was wrong until we removed the trim? It is kind of like saying "If your phone isn't ringing, it's me that's not calling."

A better test would be for someone with a perfect car - yours and mine are two that I know of that have that condition - and have them take their trim off, do a test run and give us a report. Since I have already done this, sort of in reverse, any input that I could provide would be dubious.

If you are not up to doing that then maybe someone else could volunteer. Or someone that is trying the sealing thing could do the test run with the trim off, then properly seal the trim, do another test run and tell us if it is better. Again, it sounds like something I have already done. And, it sounds like something that several other people have done.

Mike_TX

Well, the idea was that with the trim off, we could maybe really zero in on the trim area as the source. In other words, if a run without trim produced the same noise - but magnified tenfold - it would clearly point to that area as the probable source.

THEN, if the fix eliminated (or even materially reduced) the noise, it would be a slam-dunk.

I have little doubt the noise level would be worse with the trim removed ... I'd be surprised if it weren't. But if the trim being removed somehow introduced a whole different noise in someone's car, that person could start looking for other sources.

This is not to impeach your findings at all ... it's just that there could be more than one source for some people and this might help them refine their search.

Just a thought.

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WhitBaby

Damn, sounds like a country and western song...

Before I did the triangle fix myself (and after the dealer did his 'noise kit' fix...which didn't improve anything) I did the blue masking tape thing to see if it made any difference. It didn't seem to make any difference, one way or the other. This kind of surprised me as I thought it would accomplish pretty much the same thing as the silicone ... sealing everything (presumeably) from outside influence.

I don't know if a test drive without the triangle would be conclusive or not as it would seem to introduce a whole new dynamic into the mix.

There is something else going on here and I'm not sure what it is. Maybe the turbulance is coming into the door through the door seam or some other entry point and the silicone is just changing the resonant frequency to something we can no longer hear like blowing over an empty bottle. Anyone have a degree in Random Theory?

Back in the fifties the better shops would put a high-pitched noise generator inside the car then run a microphone around all the most likely seals to find a wind noise culprit.
I mentioned this to the lead tech and service manager when we were doing the comparo drive around with another LS460. They had no idea what I was talking about and the concept completely escaped them. It was obvious they had absolutely no interest in anything that didn't come directly from the Lexus Land of the Rising Sun, as Jeff can attest.

Whit

cocoon

About to order '09 LS460, is the wind noise fixed by Lexus?? Have '03, it is like a tomb.
COCOON

daryll40

I use a leaf blower to dry my car. What about using that same tool to try to find an air leak? The problem, of course, is that it's so darn loud that you can't hear any air leaking into the car. But maybe there is some way??

jmcraney

As for Mike_TX’s suggestion for narrowing down the problem: I think driving down the road at 60 MPH with the trim off to evaluate the trim contribution would be like driving down the road with the window down to evaluate the glass contribution. Neither of those are realistic conditions. But I do think his idea has some merit and it would be nice if someone would provide us with those results. I would not be surprised if, with the trim off, the noise problem is no worse, improved or eliminated.

In my mind I am convinced that sealing under the trim helps and we have an input from a responder who tells us that replacing the glass helps. We have also had inputs form responders who tell us that sealing under their trim helps. To my way of thinking it is a “Slam Dunk” that there is a problem with those trim pieces because I have done nothing else besides the sealing and my problem is eliminated.

In my response #130 I tried to explain how I thought people with this problem, or those who think they have this problem, should go about sorting it out. I know that my explanation was sort of long and hokey but I am going to head down that path again.

I believe that sealing under the trim has two benefits. One is noise isolation and the other stops some air leakage.

The biggest improvement comes from improving the noise isolation. I want to give you a different sort of example to help you understand that this has nothing to do with driving down the road at 60 MPH or air flow for that matter.

A couple of days ago I was stopped in a left-turn-lane waiting for a traffic signal to change. While I was waiting, a diesel pickup truck – one of those clattering behemoths that are abundant here in TX – stopped beside me with the engine right beside my front passenger door. The light changed and he pulled away while I remained stationary. These trucks emit a very broad spectrum of loud audible noises when they are accelerating. As he pulled away I could barely hear him. Before I did the sealing under the trim it would have seemed like the window was down.

Whit tells us that he put the blue masking tape on as I suggested and that didn’t make any difference. I am not sure that he used 5 or 6 layers (to help with noise isolation) as I suggested but I can tell that he thought he stopped all the air flow. So, I think we can say that the problem is probably not caused by air flow, but something else. Whit says that his problem is better now that he applied the sealant under the trim. While we may not be able to explain exactly how sealing under the trim provides the improvement, we have Whit’s input and we have inputs from CEOENG, bc07, Daryll40 and Sulls that lead us to believe that we are on to something that will provide improvement for some.

If you will notice Whit’s words above “There is something else going on here and I'm not sure what it is” and then read this string from the beginning you will see that I have expressed similar thoughts several times. I have also expressed several ideas as to what might be happening, some of them pretty far out, and Whit has too. But it is not really important what causes this problem as long as we know how to mitigate its effects. For those of you who have to have an explanation to feel better about this, you need to look back at my post #39. In that response one possible explanation that I offered was a “diaphragm effect.” That is why I would not be surprised if Mike_TX’s test with the trim off might make things better instead of worse. Or it might just be as simple as there are multiple paths for sound to enter in the area of the trim and sealing all of them gets us there.

One possible explanation for those who got their sealing done at the dealer and did not get any improvement might be that the dealer did not remove the trim, but instead applied a sealant around the outer edge with the expectation that all air infiltration routes were eliminated/ problem solved – and, they may have had some very strong direction from Lexus to not remove the trim.

Something else that Whit said is also noteworthy. He said “I used plenty of silicon adhesive, about a third of the 3 oz tube.” It might be a very good idea to fill all of the void under the trim with something. It can get kind of messy if you are not careful. Also keep in mind that multiple responders have reported satisfactory results using the recommendations described in responses #9 and 10 of this discussion string.

CEOEngr

I concur.

Dynamics of air and or fluid flows and resultants thereof is extremely complex. To do a study and analyze the exact source will require extensive number of manhours and the use of resources that are only available at some universities and a very few major research labs in the country.

For now, I am very happy with the results of Jeff's solution.

kbinfl

I have a stupid question. Did any of you notice the whistling around the mirror with the window OPEN? I have an '08 LS460 and when the window is lowered I have a definite whistling beginning around 40 mph. With the window up it is much fainter, but still there. I am planning on using Jim's fix, but was curious about the open window noise. Does this go away with the sealant fix?

WhitBaby

I hadn't noticed that on mine. Does it change with the mirrors folded in?

Whit

WhitBaby

Just for grins I taped some yarn around a few places up front to see what the wind flow was doing.

A five-inch length on the inboard side of the mirror showed very smooth, laminar air flow. The yarn clung to the inside surface like it was glued there.

An eight-inch piece on the leading edge of the "A" pillar, at same elevation as, and allowed to flow along, the Triangle piece, was very turbulent and violent...must be a message there somewhere, Grasshopper.

Also, as far as using lots of sealer behind the triangle piece. I used so much that it oozed out along the forward and bottom perimeters too. I suspect it's probably solid silicone back there now. It cleaned up readily using a paper towel while still fresh.

If anyone in the Denver area wants their's done I'd be happy to do it for them for just the price of the sealer...no guarantees.

Whit

kbinfl

Whit,

Yes, when the mirrors are folded in the whistling does subside. It also goes away when I put my hand in between the mirror and the trim piece. I don't find it that annoying, but I do notice the noise of cars going by when the windows are raised. So I'm hoping the sealant will remedy this condition. Going out tonight to get the "stuff". How did you remove the trim? Putty knife?

KB