awatkins

Oops. I'm sorry, I got lazy and tried to describe it from a combination of memory and referring to Jeff's pictures, and in the process vastly over-simplified things. I should have gone out and looked, which is what I just did. In fact, I just made the supreme sacrifice and took of the RHS triangle off just to make sure. But some idiot had glued it on with clear silicone seal and now I'm going to have to clean all that up and fix it right. (Calm down, just kidding).

So, going from the front of the car to the rear looking down on an imaginary horizontal cross section, the order of objects on the door is:
1. ~1" Chrome triangle
2. ~1/8" gap
3. ~1/2" wide Chrome strip
4. Rubber windows gasket.

On the triangle piece the order is:

Front of thin very sticky gray gasket
~ 1" bare plastic
Rear of gray gasket
~1/8" of bare plastic
thick white sticky gasket of soft foam
thick black not-sticky gasket of soft foam
folded edge of black plastic about the height of both thick gaskets.

Now, walking along the whole cross-section again, the alignment between the two lists is:

Front of gray gasket stuck onto front of chrome triangle
~1" of bare plastic over chrome triangle
Rear of gray gasket stuck onto rear of chrome triangle (maybe it's stuck, maybe not).
1/8" of bare plastic over 1/8" gap
White gasket on front half of chrome strip
black gasket on rear half of chrome strip
folded edge bearing on hard rubber window gasket.

Now, here's where it all gets goosey. Two issues:

1. On my car the rear chrome strip is a good 1/16" "lower" (further inlaterally) than the chrome triangle. And the hard black rubber gasket is about the same height as the chrome triangle, although it varies because it's kinda tapered. I think the white and black foam gaskets being as thick as they are is intended to accomodate that difference, along with some variation in that difference. Otherwise, why are they so thick and so soft?

2. Furthermore, the "height" of the plastic triangle away from the car is determined, I claim, by the folded-edge of the plastic triangle resting on the hard-rubber window gasket. This would be another source of "variable height" that might have motivated the thickness and softness of the two foam gaskets.

It's the second item that I think makes the result so variable, although the first one can contribute. On my car that folded edge is resting on the hard black rubber, and if you push hard on the rear edge of the black triangle it sinks into the black rubber window gasket. If it weren't for the black rubber window gasket on the door, the plastic triangle would easily lay down flat and thus allow the grey triangle gasket to stick down just fine all the way around, even resisting the upward pressure of the two soft (black and white) gaskets and thus providing the sealing action (I believe) they are all supposed to provide.

However (my theory goes) if the installer doesn't shove down hard enough on the rear edge, thus forcing the folded plastic edge of the triangle deep enough into the rubber gasket, the grey triangle won't seal at the rear. Or, even if he does shove down hard enough, when he lets go the outward pressure from the black rubber may be enough to open the grey triangle's seal enough to allow leakage. Then you have a path from those square mounting holes out past the rear vertical side of the grey triangle, to the outside where the air's rushing by at whatever speed you are driving, making a nice little venturi effect and sucking air past these sharp sheet metal eges, and hence making all kinds of racket. Indeed, what I found when I took mine off (and this was true on both sides of the car): the vertical side of the gray triangle was not sealed and there was a nice virigin sticky strip of grey gasket running along the back edge of the black triangle. I suspect it had never made contact with the chrome metal, but was just very close. A recipe for wind noise. In fact a recipe for wind noise that comes and goes.

So, in a nutshell, that's why I think you could trim a 1/16" or so off the folded edge and thus not have the hard rubber window gasket in such a tug-of-war with the grey triangle gasket to keep the black triangle trim piece solidly sealed against the door.

But if you didn't do that, from a "variable tolerance" viewpoint you've got a spring (the black window gasket) trying to unstick the grey tape, connected by about 1/2" lever of black hard plastic. Give that rubber gasket a variance in thickness from car to car. Let the temperature and humidity vary. The black rubber windows gasket will soften with temperature, but will also expand. Now drive the car at various different speeds so there is variable aerodynamic pressure sucking the triangle off the car. Now you've got a recipe for completely unpredictable behavior. Sometimes there's a gap, sometimes there isn't. Thus, some guys have quiet cars, some guys have noise cars depending on what day it is (like mine) that are fixed simply by sticking a new piece down really hard, and other guy's triangle won't stick down at all until somebody comes along and grenades the whole issue with silicone glue.

So anyway, this is why I would love to have time enough and nothing better to do than to take the door apart and figure out why that area of the car is so #$%^#$ complicated. Why are there two pieces of chrome metal of different heights with a gap between them? Neither one of them moves, so why are they different pieces? Possibly one of them holds a guide for the window, and thus needs to flex a little, while the other (the triangle) is just the to block off the opening.

This gets back to my original observation that the black plastic piece is a sophisticated design. Somebody went to a lot of trouble specifying three different gaskets in three different materials just for a little piece of plastic trim. He must have had some nasty design problem in mind in order to go to all that trouble. That, in part, is why it irks me to simply smother the whole thing in silicone rather than to make the original design work where it's possible to do so. I doubt the designers of that car do anything casually.

Johnny

Makes sense. I'm sure the designer is having fits answering questions from the field, and running back and forth from the assembly line screaming why they didn't follow his strict instructions. We could thus speculate that Lexus has been silent about this because it is an intermittent problem (not every owner suffers it) - and they are trying to deal with it in-house. It also demonstrates that what may in the end have been a complex solution (the use of different foams in a mere a push-on assembly) may have been its undoing, and have led to its random demise.

Murphy's Law?

awatkins

Sorry, I'm back.

It just occurred to me that if my theory is correct (that it's the rear edge of the plastic triangle that's causing all the grief), AND pushing down hard on an originally-installed piece doesn't fix it (by forcing the grey gasket to engage), there's yet another intermediate step to try: using an x-acto knife, slice down along the folded edge, trimming away some of the black rubber that the folded edge is bearing against, and then push on the triangle again. Keep doing that until pushing on the rear third of the black triangle results in no inward motion.

At that point you know the grey triangle is sealed all the way around. And you didn't have to buy a new piece, and you don't have to apply an glue.

jmcraney

I think you have it, Avogadro.

Brilliant analysis, Alan.

The only thing that I see that might be a problem is getting to the black rubber window gasket, that the aft part of the trim sits on, to trim it without tearing the vertical strip of white mounting tape.

PatsSoxfan

All I can say is that there are some brilliant minds on this forum. Nice work gentlemen!

awatkins

I've been thinking about that. I think you could make a horizontal (i.e. parallel to the window) cut about 1/8" deep, and then a, say, 45% cut while lifting up on the triangle piece (maybe putting in wedges at the ends, but don't pull up too hard!) and then pull that strip out with a pair needle-nose pliers. Now you have a kind of over-hanging cliff in the hard rubber gasket. Then, release the folded edge to come down onthe rubber gasket and using a small screwdriver or such, walk along the the cliff tucking it behind the folded edge. This would actually convert the rubber gasket from an enemy into a friend since it would now tend to hold the black triangle against the car.

Alternatively you could go after the black plastic folded edge with a dremel circular saw, being very very careful, obviously. Oh, the paint and finger damage you can do with those things, and they love to grab the work and jump around but with suitably braced fingers, wrists and elbows I think you could do it.

An alternative would be a barrel shaped, ~1/16" dia cutting bit in a dremel tool but then you've got to have very steady hands to make a straight edge. Or, use that same bit but to cut a trench in the hard rubber below the folded edge. Dremel #193 is 5/64", or you could go up to a 1/8" bit i.e. Dremel #194. And you can always work in multiple passes.

Of course I haven't tried any of this, and these jobs always seems easy sitting at your computer.

OTOH, the beauty of this is that, aside from visits to the emergency room, the only thing you're risking is a $12 part.

jmcraney

I think I will use the axiom "Indecision Is The Key To Flexibility" as a guideline and await further developments before I do any cutting on my car.

jmcraney

Here is another "Wind Noise Buyback" on eBay. In case anyone suspects I am quoting the same thing over and over, I am checking the VINs carefully and this is one that I have not previously reported. I have gone back and added the VINs to those I have already reported just to give you that assurance. This is the fourth one I have found on ebay and I have only been looking for a few weeks. If anyone is looking for a "fixer-upper" you might be able to negotiate a deal on one of these buybacks using what you have learned about the wind noise problem in this discussion.

This one is a 2007 LS460L Ultra VIN JTHGL46F975002186

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-...=p4506.c0.m245

For those of you who don't want to chase the link, here is what it said (just more of the standard boilerplate statement):

Quote:
THIS VEHICLE HAS A BUY BACK TITLE FROM THE LEXUS MANUFACTURER...EVERYTHING HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED...THE REASON FOR ITS BUYBACK IS SIMPLE: THE OWNER REPORTED WIND NOISE...THEREFORE THE VEHICLE WAS REPURCHASED BY THE LEXUS MANUFACTURER BECAUSE IT DID NOT CONFORM TO THE MANUFACTURER'S EXPRESS WARRANTY AND THE NONCONFORMITY WAS NOT CURED WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME...THE REPAIRS WERE MADE BY THE LEXUS MANUFACTURER BY INSTALLING FOAM INSULATION TO THE DOOR PANELS,A-PILLERS, and FRONT FENDERS...EVERYTHING REPORTED and REPAIRED HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED and WILL BE PROVIDED FOR THE NEW OWNER...THERE ARE NO OTHER REASONS OR ISSUES FOR THE BUYBACK, SO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS PHENOMENAL DEAL!
END Quote

jmcraney

Here is another "Wind Noise" buyback on eBay. This is the fifth one I have seen on eBay. How does it make you feel if you are still suffering and they know how to help you and will not? Shame on Lexus!!!

This one is a 2007 LS460 VIN JTHBL46F875008216.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-...=p4506.c0.m245

For those who don't want to chase the link, here is what this one said:

Quote:
This 2007 Lexus LS460 is one gorgeous luxury sedan! It is in immaculate condition. This LS460 will have a manufacturer buyback in the title history, but it has a clean regular Arizona title. It was repurchased by Lexus because of wind noise .The repairs were made by the manufacturer and this vehicle now meets all factory specifications. We have the paperwork from Lexus to verify all repairs. The factory warranty is in effect. We have set the price very low for a quick sale! This LS460 will not last! Don't miss a chance to own this luxurious 2007 Lexus LS460 !!
End Quote

rjm

I couldn't agree more. I think Lexus has dropped the ball in ignoring this problem. Ignoring these problems in the LS series and ignoring the transmission hesitation problems in the ES series, and the well-documented problems existing in other models, and denying that any problems exist in the face of overwhelming evidence that they do exist, is unforgivable for a international luxury car manufacturer. The arrogance of Lexus Corporation is beyond comprehension.

Whipple1

I also agree,and it is a shame they ignore the problem on there flagship vehicle,My wife is going to Japan on Oct 3rd for a couple of weeks,I will have her do some research of this problem and see what the Japanese people have to say.Im wondering if they have the same problem?,Maybe there is a seperate build plant because the steering wheel is on the opposite side? and in 07' they never had the issue,Well,anyway maybe she can dig up something or talk to a couple of owners on there opinions.

awatkins

The part in question:

Whipple1

That looks like a well engineered piece,Installed correctly no wind is going to pass through all that 3M tape!I would say before installing that piece make sure everything is sqeeky clean then rubdown the painted sufaces with rubbing alcohol,let dry,then push in equally and firm all around it for a couple of mins,then let the 3m tape adhere for a day before driveing (to be on the safe side).Do you concur

awatkins

Absolutely. However, I think in some cases that upward pressure provided by the rubber gasket may not allow that to work. So I'm going to do some experimenting today to try to determine how high off the chrome surface the rubber window gasket holds the piece. I'm hoping this will give some idea of some minor surgery to the rubber gasket, or the plastic piece itself, that would essentially guarantee a good bond without introducing any side-effects.

WhitBaby

While she's over there you should have her pickup a suitcase full of the override modules and bring them back. She could probably get them for 70% off.



Whit