clemgrad85

Well....I had scheduled to take my LS in this week but called them to cancel if they weren't going to fix it with the "triangle" fix that Jeff discovered. Well, after going back and forth between my service rep and the tech, he said that he had heard of the triangle fix but if my noise was due to the wind issue involving the window being let down a "hair", he had the fix for that issue. They seemed very confident that it would work so I kept my appt today for them to do this fix.

After picking it up, I gotta say, my car sounds much better and maybe my issue was not the triangle issue but rather really something related to the window. They described what they would be fixing inside the door, but I'm not very good at this stuff so can't recall the exact description. Anyway, I'll be seeing if this in fact satisfies me and if not, will attempt the triangle fix. I will add, they seemed aware of the issue involving the triangle area by the side view mirror. They didn't confirm whether they could fix it, but at least they acknowledged this being an issue with some models. (for what that is worth, lol)

Hopefully this has fixed things for me and I won't need to tackle the triangle fix....but I'll be listening quite carefully.

jmcraney

That's good news indeed. One thing to keep in mind is if they are replacing the triangle trim to facilitate some other repair that they are doing, then you may be getting a sort of triangle trim fix and not know it. But it may separate again at a later time.

I was about to suggest that those of you who are not DYIers should just get your dealer to replace the triangle trim to see if that would give you some relief until they come along with a fix.

JTS09

Well, there may be light at the end of the tunnel folks.
I have been in constant dialog with my local Lexus Dealer, and have developed a friendship with their Technical/Diagnostic Specialist.
We have done all the previous fixes that have been proposed, i.e. the front glass has been replaced, we dissasembled the front doors and reinforced the lower window sill seal, and did the mirror base foam fill, all to no avail. Jeff (jmcraney) and I have been in contact and had several personal discussions off line, on the Triangle Fix. He was kind enough to send me a supplemental file,complete with the original photo archive and a repair summation. I took this package personally to my contact at the dealer, and he in turn has made contact with the Regional Technical Specialist from Lexus Corporate, here in Irvine California. Turns out he has a great relationship with this fellow, and amazingly, they are going to work the Triangle Fix together next week at the dealership. This is potentially,a huge break! If all goes well, and they like the results, this may translate to a corporate level acknowledgement of the issue and fix, and we may all soon have a sanctioned repair TSIB. Keep your fingers crossed, and I'll advise on the outcome next week. Jim

PatsSoxfan

Wish me luck folks! Well, I just performed the first part (with sheet metal) of the new and improved jmcraney fix on my car this afternoon. The most difficult part is to remove the old black sealant from the metal and gaps inside the cover. I think I have found a tool (believe it or not) that works better than Jeff's sharpened edge paint stick. It is a good old fashioned screw driver. Also, a single edge razor blade works great for the flat surfaces.

Tomorrow, after the sealant cures well enough, I will do the second and very easy part of the fix....apply the cover. I will keep you posted.

clemgrad85

Further update on the window fix that Lexus did for me, is that all is really good. I am amazed at how much better the wind noise is for me. I honestly don't think it can be any more quiet so perhaps my issue wasn't related to the triangle issue.

jmcraney

clemgrad85,

Congratulations on getting your car fixed. I know your are pleased and relieved and I am happy for you. Did it "meet all specifications and the noise was normal" before it was repaired?

I am sure many owners would like to have more details about how your car was repaired so that they can go to their dealer and ask for the same thing. It would be helpful if you could post a copy of your repair order of you could cite the parts and any TSIBs that were used to effect this miracle.

I have sent you two Private Messages - did you get those?

Again, "good on you" for not giving up.

Jeff

jmcraney

JTS09 has graciously agreed to try to help get our concerns about the triangle trim defect to Lexus. I don't want to tell Lexus how to fix their cars because that would probably not be well received. So I have tried to do a brief summary of some of the wisdom that has been shared in this discussion to help them understand what is going on.

Here is a message that I have asked JTS09 to pass on to Lexus. If anyone has anything to add to this then please help us out.


Dear Lexus Technical Representative,

Thank you for taking time to look at this. There is a trove of very useful feedback regarding the wind noise problem that affects many of the 07-08-09 LSs on the Club Lexus Forums, currently 37 pages long and spanning about a year.

You probably don’t have time to read all that stuff so I would like to sort of give you some of the wisdom that I have gained by participating in and closely following the discussion. We have probably more than 20 first person reports from owners who have solved their wind noise problem by repairing the triangle trim by a method that I suggested and what is noteworthy is that they didn’t do any other kind of repair at the same time so there is no confusion as to whether what they did provided real results. And most of the owners who repaired their cars expressed no equivocation about their results – they were certain that what they had done was very effective.

Most of the wind noise problems are caused by the separation of the mounting tape (I realize it is more than tape, perhaps a better description is a “complex gasket with duplex contact adhesive surfaces”) under the triangle trim at the window corners in the front doors.

I suggest that when you take the trim off of the next car you work on that you pay special attention as to where the gasket may not have adhered or separated. This is usually evident by the feel as you pull the trim off and by the tear-off-residue pattern. Usually where the adhesion is adequate there is gasket residue on both the trim and the chrome part of the car after the trim is removed and the residue is very difficult to get off so there is no doubt that where it sticks, it sticks real good.

There are several possible reasons why the gaskets are separating or failing to adhere initially.

(1) Enough pressure may not have been applied when the part was first installed. I did a sort of an inventory walk through at two different dealerships looking at the trim on all the LSs and it was evident that about 60% were going to have wind noise problems – I could tell by tapping on the trim (sounds sort of hollow) - and looking at the margins (upper corner sticking way up) - that the gasket behind the trim was already separated.
(2) For some of the cars the problem may be that the window gasket is too high where the trim saddles it along the rear-vertical edge of the trim. That can prevent the mounting gasket from ever making full contact with the chrome part no matter how much pressure is applied. Another possibility is that the gasket makes contact but is under stress because the window gasket had to be compressed to get full gasket contact – most contact adhesives will separate over time if they are under constant tension. This is tolerance related and varies from car to car – some will fit just right and never be a problem while other will always be a problem without some sort of modification.
(3) On most of the cars there is a sort of small bowing-out effect at the triangle trim when the window tops-out. If the trim is tightly saddled on the window gasket this constant movement when the window is operated will likely cause the gasket to separate eventually. You hear reports of owners getting an improvement in their wind noise problem by bumping the window down after it tops out which probably lets the trim sit a little snugger.
(4) It is possible that some of the trim pieces are defective – they come with the mounting gasket installed, a sort of a zip strip design. I have had occasion to get the gaskets off of three sets of trim pieces – prepping them for installation with the silicone adhesive – two of which were removed from cars and one purchased at the parts department of a local dealership. One of the sets was removed from my car and the gaskets on both sides of the car had separated from the car along the bottom leg of the triangle, the gasket was still in good shape, adhesion to the car and trim was very good where it stuck. The other set that was removed from a car had separated from the car at the upper most corner down about one third of both legs of the triangle, the gasket was badly deteriorated, sort of gummy. The purchased set was different, the gasket came off of the trim easily sort of like pulling Scotch Magic Tape off paper and it certainly would not have held up well if it were applied to a car, probably would have just come off in the wind.


For some of the cars just replacing the triangle trim, with good parts, will solve the extreme wind noise problem, perhaps permanently. For other cars, some sort of modification or adaptation will have to be made because the trim gasket can’t make contact with the chrome part of the car due tolerance-buildup issues.

On most of the cars, even those that don’t have a gasket adhesion problem, sealing the gaps under the rear corners of the triangle trim will eliminate the swooshing sound that occurs from wind gust at certain angles.

JTS09

Morning All: The Dealer/ Lexus Corporate sanctioned repair, utilizing Jeff's Triangle Fix, has been postponed till late next week. The Tech Liason at the Dealer is off on vacation this week, and the Lexus Corporate Rep was off the Memorial Day weekend and thru next Wednesday. We are tentatively targeting Thursday the 28th, or Friday the 29th. The delay for the initial repair date last week, was postponed due a problem in my schedule. They were ready, willing and able so I'm confident it will be done next week. Keep you tuned. Jim

PatsSoxfan

OK, the results of the new jmcraney fix are in. I wish I could tell you that it is tomb-like quiet, but I cannot. There may have been a slight improvement over the original fix. I need to once again emphasize that my wind noise is basically just a "whisper" (swishing sound) at the top of the drivers side window at high speeds. It is more apparent in high cross winds or head winds. A year ago, prior to my doing the original jmcraney fix, the wind noise was more of an issue.

To make a long story short, I think that my wind noise issue is as good as it will get as far as the triangle fix is concerned. As Jeff stated on his remarks, there are other causes for the wind noise as well. I also had the latest Lexus fix done several weeks ago and that did not make any difference. Maybe I no longer have a wind noise problem (after the original jmcraney fix) and that is just the way it is suppose to be.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Jim has the triangle fix done at the dealer later this month.

JTS09

Well, I'm on the way to the Dealer right now, to have Jeff's Triangle Fix officially done by them, with the Lexus Corporate Rep from Irvine California on hand, to observe. Back with the results in a day or two, when I get the car back.. Jim

jimmyo

JTSO9 Jim, How did your visit go at the dealership for the wind noise fix with the lexus corporate rep on hand.

dk0515

iTrader: (6)

Hey JTS09. Are there any updates? My car is having the same issue and I would like it fixed.

JTS09

Sorry for the delay, been on a lot of biz travel lately.
The Corporate Rep apparently did come by and took an initial test drive with the Shop Foreman. Agreed that there was ambient Wind Noise but stated that these issues are "Highly Subjective" quote, unquote. Riiiggghhhhttt. Anyway, I was advised that they did the fix but did not use Jeff's metal cut outs he had so kindly sent me. That really irritated me but nothing I could do as I wasn't there when they did the work. They claimed they did do a complete frame fill along the same guidelines, and then sealed the Tringle Piece along the borders. They also did the Right Side Door the same way they did the original repair attempt on the left side. This entailed dissasembly of the door and back filling the upper guide seams inside the frame cavity's, according to some previous format they had discussed with Lexus. Bottom line, it is somewhat quieter, but I can still hear what I consider to be too much ambient wind noise at speed. Still sounds like you are hearing air seeping inside the cabin, and to me, it appears to be coming from the door frame parallel to your shoulder area and possibly bleeding around the OEM Door Seal at the B Pillar.I am going to take a ride with my Mechanics Stethoscope and continue to try and isolate it. I also have a GS400 and a GS 430, and both are noticeably quieter on the freeway.We have now done everything possible and I'm just trying to tune it out, and move on. It will be very interesting to see what structual changes are made on the 2010 in this area, when that vehicle is released in September/October. Jim

PatsSoxfan

I have a breakthrough on my wind noise issue. My business partner also has an LS460L and had the same type of wind noise issue as I have had (swishing, whispering sound from the top of the driver's side window). Lo and behold he decided to have the latest Lexus TSIB (replacing the windshield molding and also the rubber seal on the driver and front passenger window wells (is that what it's called?). They did this to mine many months ago with no success.

Well guess what? My business partner's wind noise was gone after this fix. Now, I am getting really upset why it did not work for me. A few weeks ago, I decided to go talk to the service manager at the dealer and told him the story. He quickly told me to drive the car in so he can look at it. After a bit of inspection on his part, he found that a piece of the rubber molding on far lower right (looking from the driver's seat) portion of the windshield was not clamped in properly. It was really loose. He clamped it in very easily. Then he inspected my driver's side window area and said "here is another problem". That rubber seal they had installed many months ago, was not properly installed. There were small protruding gaps that could easily be seen. I did notice that the wind noise was not as strong after he clamped down that pice I talked about above. They ordered a new seal and I made an appointment to replace it for earlier this this week. The new seal was installed this past Tuesday and BINGO! I now have no wind noise. It is wonderful.

I do not at all want to mitigate Jeff's triangle fix because that fix made my car quieter from road noise, etc. But as Jeff pointed out, there can be other reasons for wind noise as well. In the cases of wind swishing/whispering noise on top of the driver's side window in particular, the problem does indeed seem to be related to this latest Lexus fix along with a replacement of the rubber seal. I'm sure there are many others out there that have a similar problem. I know that Clemgrad85 had the same problem and he also had the same success. Maybe that is also the same problem you have, jts09.

TexasTex

Hey PatsSoxFan can you elaborate a little more on exactly where the two areas are that you reference? Pics would be great if possible. If in the drivers seat (left of car) where is the "far lower right portion of the windshield" ?? And what did they do and re-do on the drivers side widow seal??

Thanks for any additional info so I can check on mine.

After a bit of inspection on his part, he found that a piece of the rubber molding on far lower right (looking from the driver's seat) portion of the windshield was not clamped in properly. It was really loose. He clamped it in very easily. Then he inspected my driver's side window area and said "here is another problem". That rubber seal they had installed many months ago, was not properly installed.