LS460L Trunk Latch Disaster
05-11-09, 03:33 PM
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LS460L Trunk Latch Disaster
This incident happened a few months ago, but telling about it may hopefully prevent others from suffering the same fate. I was two days into a 5,000-mile, three-week trip, repacking the trunk prior to an early morning start. I pressed the trunk lid button to close the (fairly full) trunk while I went back to my motel room to pick up a last load. When I came back out, the trunk wouldn't open. Neither the lid button, the driver's seat button, nor the manual key in the key card would open it. Yes, I checked the glove box valet defeat button, and it was not activated. I called the nearest dealer, who told me to bring it in and they could open it.
When I got to the dealer in Tampa, they assured me it would only take a moment to open the trunk. A half-hour later they came back and informed me there was a problem. They took me back to the garage, and there were three of their most experienced mechanics performing all sorts of contortions to try to open the latch. They even tried reaching through the rear seat hatch with a long rod, to no avail.
Another two hours later, the mechanics figured out what the problem was. The plastic carrying strap on a styrofoam cooler had fallen across the trunk latch opening as the trunk lid closed, and the automatic latch mechanism had sucked the strap down into the latch opening, firmly jamming it shut. Not only that, but the latch had continued to try to complete the closure, eventually burning out the entire rear-end electronic junction box.
At this point the mechanics said the only way to open the trunk was with a crowbar, which would certainly ruin the latch and do cosmetic damage to the trunk lid. Since I had numerous schedule commitments to keep on this trip, I had no choice but to authorize the operation. It only took a second to pop the trunk, and it certainly did break the latch mechanism. The dealer was able to replace the mechanism, but did not have a spare junction box. I was forced to continue the trip with a trunk that opened only with the manual key.
So at this point you're saying, Ouch! Bad day at Black Rock! But wait until I tell the worst part: Lexus refused to pay for any of the parts and labor for this whole fiasco! I protested to my local dealer and regional Lexus management when I got home, but at no point did any of them offer to refund any of the more than $1,000 this cost me, and at no point did anyone even suggest that any design fault had played a part in my troubles. Suffice to say, I'm still happy with the car, but will be eternally wary of Lexus' lack of inclination to back up their product.
When I got to the dealer in Tampa, they assured me it would only take a moment to open the trunk. A half-hour later they came back and informed me there was a problem. They took me back to the garage, and there were three of their most experienced mechanics performing all sorts of contortions to try to open the latch. They even tried reaching through the rear seat hatch with a long rod, to no avail.
Another two hours later, the mechanics figured out what the problem was. The plastic carrying strap on a styrofoam cooler had fallen across the trunk latch opening as the trunk lid closed, and the automatic latch mechanism had sucked the strap down into the latch opening, firmly jamming it shut. Not only that, but the latch had continued to try to complete the closure, eventually burning out the entire rear-end electronic junction box.
At this point the mechanics said the only way to open the trunk was with a crowbar, which would certainly ruin the latch and do cosmetic damage to the trunk lid. Since I had numerous schedule commitments to keep on this trip, I had no choice but to authorize the operation. It only took a second to pop the trunk, and it certainly did break the latch mechanism. The dealer was able to replace the mechanism, but did not have a spare junction box. I was forced to continue the trip with a trunk that opened only with the manual key.
So at this point you're saying, Ouch! Bad day at Black Rock! But wait until I tell the worst part: Lexus refused to pay for any of the parts and labor for this whole fiasco! I protested to my local dealer and regional Lexus management when I got home, but at no point did any of them offer to refund any of the more than $1,000 this cost me, and at no point did anyone even suggest that any design fault had played a part in my troubles. Suffice to say, I'm still happy with the car, but will be eternally wary of Lexus' lack of inclination to back up their product.
05-11-09, 04:28 PM
#2
Wow, welcome to the forums, bobnxena, and thanks for sharing your experiences. Bummer that it cost $1,000 to break open the trunk and that Lexus wasn't willing to pay for it. Was the damage fully repaired? The latch was broken and replaced but was there any further cosmetic damage as alluded to before the crowbar use? Hopefully that hefty cost at least brought things back to full functionality.
Now it is rather something to have the plastic strap of a styrofoam box get sucked in to the trunk latch mechanism, I'm guessing these were the wraparound straps, and that they were cut open and hanging out, so that the end of one strap got sucked in? It may seem unrelated but this reminds me of having to call the repairman in for an incident with our new refrigerator a while back, where when closing the door, somehow a food container inside the refrigerator got lodged with the door, making it impossible for the door to be opened more than a crack. In the end they had to use a special tool to dislodge the item.
Now it is rather something to have the plastic strap of a styrofoam box get sucked in to the trunk latch mechanism, I'm guessing these were the wraparound straps, and that they were cut open and hanging out, so that the end of one strap got sucked in? It may seem unrelated but this reminds me of having to call the repairman in for an incident with our new refrigerator a while back, where when closing the door, somehow a food container inside the refrigerator got lodged with the door, making it impossible for the door to be opened more than a crack. In the end they had to use a special tool to dislodge the item.
05-11-09, 11:57 PM
#3
Lexus Champion
LOL, that happened to my wife last year, she put one of the kids bags in the trunk and the bags strape fell across the latch. Suffice to say Lexus had the car for two days as they tried to open it. I also had to pay about $1000 for a new latch.
But this is where I don't get your complaint. As with my wifes situation you let the strap fall over the latch, so there for you are responsible and should pay. How could you say this is a design fault?
But this is where I don't get your complaint. As with my wifes situation you let the strap fall over the latch, so there for you are responsible and should pay. How could you say this is a design fault?
Last edited by Dave600hL; 05-12-09 at 12:49 AM.
05-12-09, 09:00 AM
#5
Why would you expect Lexus to pay for any of this? The parts did not fail due to a design error, they failed due to your error. It was an accident just like backing into a post. Lexus would not pay for that either. I'm sorry for your problem, but I just don't see where Lexus is responsible.
Steve
Steve
05-12-09, 02:50 PM
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Too bad you had to go through the same thing, Dave, but in a way I'm relieved I'm not the only victim! Kind of proves there is a problem.
The plastic carrying strap was not damaged or detached from the cooler before it got sucked into the latch. Yes, the paint on the underside of the trunk lid was marred when they popped the trunk, and there are a few dents beside the latch, but none are visible when the lid is closed unless you bend down and look under the edge of the lid.
I agree that Lexus was probably within their legal rights to deny any responsibility for reimbursement. However, I still maintain the whole design concept is not up to the company's usual standard. These are the flaws I listed when discussing the matter with regional representatives (who, not surprisingly, never gave me any response except that they would "pass the information along").
1. The trunk latch entrance lies open and accessible, so that anything in or on the trunk can cover it or fall into it. A spring-loaded cover plate should be provided to deflect any objects which can potentially interfere with the latch procedure.
2. The trunk latch mechanism can jam if a foreign object falls into the latch entrance or lies across it so that the latch draws it in when the trunk closes automatically. The trunk latch mechanism is supposed to have a “jam protection function” (Owner’s Manual, page 56), but if this function indeed exists, it failed to prevent the trunk latch from jamming in this case.
3. The fuse protecting the latch closure circuitry does not blow when the latch jams and continues to try to close.
4. The junction box containing the latch mechanism circuitry overheats and fails when the latch jams and the fuse does not blow.
5. There is no method of opening the trunk when the latch jams, except for forcing the trunk open and thereby destroying the latch and causing cosmetic damage.
The existence of these flaws permitted the incident I experienced. Did I contribute by placing the styrofoam cooler too close to the latch? Yes, but many other potential owner-caused situations are subjects of the company's design features in this car. My favorite peeve is the alarm that sounds when the driver's door opens while the engine is still running. This alarm continues to sound after the engine is then shut off. Why, I don't have any idea, but apparently Lexus engineers thought up some bizarre scenario to justify it. If they had spent as much time on the trunk latch's hazards, I wouldn't be writing this.
The plastic carrying strap was not damaged or detached from the cooler before it got sucked into the latch. Yes, the paint on the underside of the trunk lid was marred when they popped the trunk, and there are a few dents beside the latch, but none are visible when the lid is closed unless you bend down and look under the edge of the lid.
I agree that Lexus was probably within their legal rights to deny any responsibility for reimbursement. However, I still maintain the whole design concept is not up to the company's usual standard. These are the flaws I listed when discussing the matter with regional representatives (who, not surprisingly, never gave me any response except that they would "pass the information along").
1. The trunk latch entrance lies open and accessible, so that anything in or on the trunk can cover it or fall into it. A spring-loaded cover plate should be provided to deflect any objects which can potentially interfere with the latch procedure.
2. The trunk latch mechanism can jam if a foreign object falls into the latch entrance or lies across it so that the latch draws it in when the trunk closes automatically. The trunk latch mechanism is supposed to have a “jam protection function” (Owner’s Manual, page 56), but if this function indeed exists, it failed to prevent the trunk latch from jamming in this case.
3. The fuse protecting the latch closure circuitry does not blow when the latch jams and continues to try to close.
4. The junction box containing the latch mechanism circuitry overheats and fails when the latch jams and the fuse does not blow.
5. There is no method of opening the trunk when the latch jams, except for forcing the trunk open and thereby destroying the latch and causing cosmetic damage.
The existence of these flaws permitted the incident I experienced. Did I contribute by placing the styrofoam cooler too close to the latch? Yes, but many other potential owner-caused situations are subjects of the company's design features in this car. My favorite peeve is the alarm that sounds when the driver's door opens while the engine is still running. This alarm continues to sound after the engine is then shut off. Why, I don't have any idea, but apparently Lexus engineers thought up some bizarre scenario to justify it. If they had spent as much time on the trunk latch's hazards, I wouldn't be writing this.
05-12-09, 02:52 PM
#7
Hey Bob, I'm sorry it took this incident to get you here, but now that you are here, welcome to CL!
I guess my question though is how could Lexus better design the latch in the event someone stuck something into it? From what you describe the dealer seemed to go all out to help you, but in the end it was your fault that it happened.
If its any consolation, I've had life lessons waaaay more costly to me than $1000!
Don't be a stranger here.
I guess my question though is how could Lexus better design the latch in the event someone stuck something into it? From what you describe the dealer seemed to go all out to help you, but in the end it was your fault that it happened.
If its any consolation, I've had life lessons waaaay more costly to me than $1000!
Don't be a stranger here.
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05-13-09, 04:59 AM
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Thanks for the welcome -- always good to be part of a group with such good taste. . . .
Better design . . . well, for starters, any $200 garage door opener has two safety devices: A photocell to stop the motor if something gets in the way, and a torque limiter to reverse the mechanism if the door hits something on the way down. Seems like an $80,000 vehicle could have something analogous to one or both of these gadgets to stop the automatic trunk lid closure in case of interference. While we're at it, let's put in a timer and thermal overload trip so that closure stops if it doesn't complete in, say, ten seconds, or if the electronics start overheating (something any self-respecting control system includes). We could also design the emergency inside trunk opening mechanism to bypass the automatic latch so that the trunk could still be opened manually (by reaching through the back seat hatch, if necessary) when the latch is jammed. None of these items should add more than a few bucks to the car's cost, and they're not exactly rocket science.
Better design . . . well, for starters, any $200 garage door opener has two safety devices: A photocell to stop the motor if something gets in the way, and a torque limiter to reverse the mechanism if the door hits something on the way down. Seems like an $80,000 vehicle could have something analogous to one or both of these gadgets to stop the automatic trunk lid closure in case of interference. While we're at it, let's put in a timer and thermal overload trip so that closure stops if it doesn't complete in, say, ten seconds, or if the electronics start overheating (something any self-respecting control system includes). We could also design the emergency inside trunk opening mechanism to bypass the automatic latch so that the trunk could still be opened manually (by reaching through the back seat hatch, if necessary) when the latch is jammed. None of these items should add more than a few bucks to the car's cost, and they're not exactly rocket science.
05-13-09, 09:25 AM
#9
Lexus Test Driver
I've got to weigh in with the others who feel sorry for you, but can't see how you expect Lexus to pay for your misfortune.
We live in a society these days that seems to expect everything to be completely idiot-proof (no offense intended by the use of this term), and for manufacturers to make everything in such a way that nothing can ever go wrong with it or happen to it.
Sorry, but that's not possible. And there is also the matter of personal responsibility, which dictates that you make sure there aren't things hanging out there to get snagged in a lock mechanism. It didn't get "sucked in" to the lock - you just didn't make sure it was out of the way. It happens. So just consider it an expensive lesson and go on with life.
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We live in a society these days that seems to expect everything to be completely idiot-proof (no offense intended by the use of this term), and for manufacturers to make everything in such a way that nothing can ever go wrong with it or happen to it.
Sorry, but that's not possible. And there is also the matter of personal responsibility, which dictates that you make sure there aren't things hanging out there to get snagged in a lock mechanism. It didn't get "sucked in" to the lock - you just didn't make sure it was out of the way. It happens. So just consider it an expensive lesson and go on with life.
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05-13-09, 02:59 PM
#10
Bob, you posted your solutions while I was typing my question of what Lexus could have done better. I certainly agree that the fuse should have blown in this circumstance. I wonder why it didn't.
Certainly the photocell solution would work, but my question is at what cost?
Your thread prompted me to go look for the emergency release because up until now I never noticed it. It is a little more difficult to get at than the release they use in my wife's Jag. However, there is a release there but apparently they couldn't get to it through the rear seat hatch to help you.
Certainly the photocell solution would work, but my question is at what cost?
Your thread prompted me to go look for the emergency release because up until now I never noticed it. It is a little more difficult to get at than the release they use in my wife's Jag. However, there is a release there but apparently they couldn't get to it through the rear seat hatch to help you.
05-14-09, 10:10 AM
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Rotating the LS460's mechanical emergency trunk release lever opens the cam inside the male part of the power trunk latch -- but if the cam is jammed by a foreign object, as in my case, the emergency release won't work no matter how much torque is applied to the release lever. You can see how the release works by opening the trunk, taking a pen and pushing the power latch cam toward its closed position. You'll see it come to life and pull itself the rest of the way closed. Then when you pull the emergency release the cam will pop open again.
As it happens, there is indeed a torque sensor (motor amps) that reverses the trunk lid closer, but this protection covers only part of the closing process, as admitted by Lexus in the owner's manual, page 57: "The jam protection function may not work if something gets caught just before the trunk lid fully closes." Incidentally, that same warning applies to the power windows (page 90) -- an obvious hazard for children's fingers and other small objects.
As it happens, there is indeed a torque sensor (motor amps) that reverses the trunk lid closer, but this protection covers only part of the closing process, as admitted by Lexus in the owner's manual, page 57: "The jam protection function may not work if something gets caught just before the trunk lid fully closes." Incidentally, that same warning applies to the power windows (page 90) -- an obvious hazard for children's fingers and other small objects.
06-25-09, 01:43 PM
#12
I just had something similar happen to me yesterday and I agree with Bob that this is an example of bad design.
It's not Lexus' fault when something falls across the latch.
It IS their fault for not providing a better design that can deal with obstructions at least as well as a $200 garage door opener.
In my case, the corner of a rather thin blanket fell across the latch opening during closing. The trunk closed and latched but when my wife got home the trunk would not open with either the driver's button or the button on the remote. However, she was able to reach the emergency release through the pass through and pop the trunk. The latch released but we can't open the trunk more than an inch. I can run my fingers through the opening the whole length of the trunk deck so there isn't anything hung up at the latch or along the bottom.
My guess is that the power closer burned itself out trying to close and is now seized up, preventing us from manually opening the trunk without forcing it.
Anyway, we go to the dealership tomorrow to have it checked out...
I just hope I don't get my jacket caught in the door with the power door closers on the way to the dealership tomorrow morning... I'll probably be out another $1,000!
It's not Lexus' fault when something falls across the latch.
It IS their fault for not providing a better design that can deal with obstructions at least as well as a $200 garage door opener.
In my case, the corner of a rather thin blanket fell across the latch opening during closing. The trunk closed and latched but when my wife got home the trunk would not open with either the driver's button or the button on the remote. However, she was able to reach the emergency release through the pass through and pop the trunk. The latch released but we can't open the trunk more than an inch. I can run my fingers through the opening the whole length of the trunk deck so there isn't anything hung up at the latch or along the bottom.
My guess is that the power closer burned itself out trying to close and is now seized up, preventing us from manually opening the trunk without forcing it.
Anyway, we go to the dealership tomorrow to have it checked out...
I just hope I don't get my jacket caught in the door with the power door closers on the way to the dealership tomorrow morning... I'll probably be out another $1,000!
06-26-09, 09:58 AM
#14
Interesting.
When Lexus addressed my issue (Link), Lexus paid for all of the work, which would seem to imply, then, a tacit admission that that they felt it was their fault (although the dealer still SAID it was me accidentally pressing on the fob)
HBH
When Lexus addressed my issue (Link), Lexus paid for all of the work, which would seem to imply, then, a tacit admission that that they felt it was their fault (although the dealer still SAID it was me accidentally pressing on the fob)
HBH
09-05-10, 08:44 AM
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Thanks for this thread gentlemen,
I am also a member of this unique club. After laughing at that silly automatic trunk closer and having my teenage sons laugh at it, it took its revenge last night at the local Scottish Gathering. I have my wallet, camera, computer, musical instruments and backpacks stuck in the trunk of my car. I ask rhetorically, "What are the chances one of the boys straps being stuck in that unopenable latch?"
I'd be more resigned if it weren't for the fact that we need access to the equipment for a marching band today. I am tempted to use my wonderbar on it. But I want the dealer to do it.
I have had this 2008 460LS for 6 months. Nice car but this should not happen. The service shop is closed until Tues.
I guess I will now see how helpful my dealer is. I am hopeful; but, not expecting anything but sympathy.
I really appreciate your thread. Thanks.
Ken
I am also a member of this unique club. After laughing at that silly automatic trunk closer and having my teenage sons laugh at it, it took its revenge last night at the local Scottish Gathering. I have my wallet, camera, computer, musical instruments and backpacks stuck in the trunk of my car. I ask rhetorically, "What are the chances one of the boys straps being stuck in that unopenable latch?"
I'd be more resigned if it weren't for the fact that we need access to the equipment for a marching band today. I am tempted to use my wonderbar on it. But I want the dealer to do it.
I have had this 2008 460LS for 6 months. Nice car but this should not happen. The service shop is closed until Tues.
I guess I will now see how helpful my dealer is. I am hopeful; but, not expecting anything but sympathy.
I really appreciate your thread. Thanks.
Ken