imherenow

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/10/2...-review-video/

the black colour is awsome!!

dfkd

On the matter of power, I think everyone forgets the Lexus' most popular cars are the pedestrian types (ES & RX). The average customer just wants comfort and reliability to make it down Main St within the speed limit and without worry.

The average guy who can afford the LS wont notice the difference between 380HP and 480 because he never pushes the pedal hard enough for it to matter.

Not to imply that our preference don't count but in the end, most purchasers won't care that much.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

you should read up on mb board where a lot of people compare the 07-11 s550 (380hp) to 12 s550 (430hp), commenting how much more torquey / powerful / smoother the car is

and same thing when lexus changed the ls430 (300hp) to ls460 (380hp), how many people commented the new one is a lot faster.

i agree, not everyone would use the peak power, but i am pretty sure most people would notice the increased power across the whole power band

patgilm

Couldn't you say the same about the F-Sport if the average customer just wants comfort and reliability. I'm not sure if they will sell a lot of F-Sports but I think if they are going to throw in better handling for the small minority that will buy the F-Sport, why not at least bump the hp to be competitive for just this model.

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

I also think the power output is fine.
Here in south Florida there are a jillion mercedes owners. The base car is over 400hp and the AMG over 500hp. Yet, I see all these geezers driving them like they have no where to go. People are on their cellphones or talking with a rider or just plain scared of all the other jillion cars on our busy streets. These people buy those powerful machines just to tool around town going slow.
They are buying the AMG model because its the most expensive. A status symbol. They are clearly not using the power. I know, I weave traffic constantly trying to get away from them.

rogers2

In essence you just answered the question why the new LS should have more power. It doesn't matter if a person use it or not people purchase cars for a number of reasons. But I definitely wouldn't purchase a car with 380hp and everybody else in the segment has at least 400 hp. Ok your handling is better but you were the worse handler and road feel in the segment. For example; people rarely get to use that beast under the S class AMG but I bet when they pull up to the light you recognize they're in a different league. Status "mean I want it all and more". I really don't understand why Lexus do such things. For example: The GS, the car handles great but why on earth bring an v6 out with less than 350hp when you know people are looking for more from you in that segment. True people buy plenty of BMW 528 but you’re going up against the 528/535/550. Make a splash not a wave.. Most of the stuff Lexus is raving about that's new on this car other cars in the segment basiscally already have it.

But I don't want be harsh. The car is a step in the right direction for Lexus. Lexus is starting to step up in the kit/sport department for it's vehicles.

PatsSoxfan

I respectfully disagree. The horsepower on the LS is more than enough for 99% of the population. If you want to race the car against the AMG then fine, don't buy an LS or a GS. Only a small minority care whether or not a vehicle has 380 or 450 HP in my opinion.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

read post #63 again, i am just stating what i see on mb board, where there are a lot of s class owners.

again, why people associate power with racing, that's beyond me. it's not like you have to red line to get the extra power. the extra power and torque is across the whole rpm range. and i don't think any of us is saying the power in the ls is not enough. but in the mean time it's noticeably different

if you want to talk about enough, then as i have mentioned 2 times before in this thread, 300hp 4.3 engine in the ls430 was definitely more than enough. try to put that in the current ls share and see how it would do?

PatsSoxfan

OK Romin, I read your comments above. So what? This means very little to people like myself. I don't need more tourque or for the car to be more powerful than the present LS. It is smooth enough and powerful enough for me and I'm sure the great majority of the population.

As fas as the difference between the LS430 and LS460 is concerned, even the LS430 was powerful enough for me. Besides, didn't the LS460 add some weight over the LS430? If so, the extra HP was needed to maintain or exceed the acceleration of the LS430. My main argument is that there comes a point when enough is enough in terms of power and acceleration.

One other comment: I like the looks of the new LS better than the MB S550. Additionally, why pay an extra $10-20K for an MB when I can own a new LS that I think is better value and is more reliable?

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

The Equus now got the 429 hp 5.0L now also. The car is way less refined then the LS though.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

You took the words out of my mouth

I always find it hilarious when people say 300 hp is enough, no one ever need 500 hp bacause you can't drive 180 mph on the street

The reality is, even the 268 hp from a V6 Camry is planty enough for daily driving, even for spirited driving. The 300 hp in my LS430 is way more then enough, it is actually pretty fast for daily driving needs. But everytime I drive a 500 hp+ cars on the street in a daily driving situration without racing anyone, even though I don't speed much now a days, when the 500 hp hit from 20-70 mph, it is OH SOOOO satisfying

EVERYONE, including all the anti-hp naysayers, enjoys acceleration. Acceleration is like sugar, salt, fat, music, air conditioning on a hot day...............no human dislikes it.

LexFather

Wait a minute here.

Except in Europe and around the world most of the D-class flagships sold are 6 cylinder models, even 4 cylinders! The A8 can be had in FWD! The LS only offers a V-8 hybrid in Europe lol! So clearly it depends on the market b/c there power isn't the main concern. I do agree this is not Europe though

Even here BMW now offers a 6 cylinder 740 and the Sclass hybrid offers a V-6. So a lot of sales are going to those models and they have what 300hp? The A8 now has a V-6, 333hp which the vast majority will be sold as. They still have the 500hp W-12 and now 520hp S8 option but those will be very small sellers.

Now I agree that a 400hp rating would be swell or even put the 416hp 5.0 V-8 in the F-sport (the 6hp/2hp bump is really lol).

But now that I write it out, Lexus should offer a V-6 like the Germans before a 500hp V-8

The LS was always a V-8 only car. The 600h L added a bigger V-8 and a hybrid. It never offered anything below that. 386hp isn't sexy but it is fine especially since you get a 386hp V-8 for the price of a 6 cylinder German competitor.

Lexus hopefully offers smaller and larger engines to the LS in the future. Not sure what route they will take.

On a sidenote I chuckled when I saw the S8 had a 4.0 liter 520hp engine doing 0-60 in 3.9 seconds hot damn!!!!!

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i am not doubting anyone's purchase decision, no one needs to be defensive about their choices. as long as you are happy that's great and i am sure no one here spending 80k on a car without making sure it's their "best" choice. fwiw i also had a msrp 86k ls460l before, so there is a reason and it's stupid to say i don't like the car.

all i am trying to say is, what is enough? you can say about your enough all day long, but one can also argue things can always be better. you think the ls460 is fast and smooth enough? i can assure you more power and torque will make it quieter and smoother because of lower rpm. and even downgrading to 430 engine i am sure it's still far quieter and smoother than a corolla, so what's your point there of ls460 being the "enough"?

i am sure the 2013 ls will sell just fine. how fine? we will have to say. but i am also saying this, when you are in the same segment and the others are outrunning you by good 70hp, you are at a disadvantage. again i am not saying it makes the ls pointless, but it most definitely hurts

you could most definitely be one of those back in 2007 that would purchase a ls430 (new shell old engine) no problem over s550, but i would also say if they debut back in 2007 as ls430, it's going to be disastrous

rominl

iTrader: (4)

for the longest time you fought how wrong it is to have v6 flagship here in the US market, now you say it's ok and lexus should have one too? come on now mike. i laugh at my neighbor's 740 every time i see it

LexFather

Oh, I sure said that Hasn't luxury changed? Clearly the Germans feel so as they are down-sizing engines here. It is NOT hurting image and only helping sales. LS trolls still want to say the LS is cheaper than the Germans yet in Europe its more expensive by far. We both know these new V-6's are mighty good and have the power of old V-8s In America

740-6 cylinder-12 cylinder
S hybrid-6 cylinder-12 cylinder
A8- 6 cylinder-12 cylinder
Panamera-6 cylinder-TT V-8
LS-8 cylinder- 8 cylinder hybrid
(Jaguar is gaining a 6 cylinder too fyi)

The fact of the matter is Lexus offering a V-8 only here and V-8 hybrid only in Europe has not made people think Lexus is higher level than BMW/Benz. We had that argument, Andrew and I were big supporters of it. That Lexus (at the time, the CT was not here) didn't offer any I-4s, V-8s only in the LS compared to the German competition yet Lexus still was not seen on par or better b/c of their larger engines.

To me even as a big supporter of Lexus and a big past supporter of V-8s in this class times have changed and even with this latest update a V-8 only won't cut it. People now want a flagship with better fuel economy. There is a niche for those that want a big sedan and could care less about speed. Contrarily there is a market for those that want a big sedan and want that big V-10/V-12. Why is there in LS 450h getting say 28 MPG average?

Lexus sadly offers neither with the LS today.

So it is of my opinion that if Lexus hopes to grow LS sales back to 2k a month levels, they will need to offer far more engine choices then just the V-8, even if the V-8 is priced like the 6 cylinder Germans.

Templin just said he expects sales of around 1k a month for the refresh, a far from from the 3K-2k + in the past. Things have changed and Lexus still is slow to change with them.

The final part is that the LS is the only major player from Japan. Acura and INfiniti not competing/failing in this class hurts Lexus.The A8 is now very relevant where in the past it was an after-thought. We have the Panamera. The Jag XJ is much better. Hell Hyundai has the Equus. This is no longer the LS/S/7 party like it was for the last 20 years. Lexus is the only Japanese brand offering supreme luxury whereas Europe is offering tons of competition even indirect cars like the A7, CLS, 6 series GT. Perception has really shifted to Europe in the higher scale class.

They have eaten the LS pie and Lexus simply cannot respond with the same old methods. The F-sport is a great start to something truly different for the LS and they need to revise their LS hybrid strategy.