Doublebase

I love hearing your perspective on marketing, because I can picture it being just like the way you describe it. I think when dealing with oil it's best to take everything with a grain of salt....find what works for you (probably more on a mental level than mechanical)...and be consistent with the maintenance.

And oil "level", might be the real key. So many people drive around on these extended drains and don't check the oil level. It doesn't make it any easier that car manufacturers are taking away the dipsticks and not giving you an accurate reading.

Doublebase

I'm 7k miles into an oil interval using the Mobil 1 EP, so far so good. I know the color or "cleanliness" of the oil doesn't mean anything, but I'm surprised at how clean it still looks after 7k miles. Devh has told me that it can be corrosive for our engine - something that has to do with what they put into the add pack - so I'm probably not going to buy it again, but I might send a sample in to blackstone because this will be the first time I intend to go 10k on any oil change, so I'm curious.

But I have seen side by side comparison/tests of the major oils and Mobil 1 EP does look like it doesn't do so well (it was an Amsoil test). Of course in the "study", Amsoil came out looking like their stuff was made from ground up unicorn horns, so I wouldn't put a ton of stock in it, but the EP did look like the worst oil there.

swfla

iTrader: (1)

If you ever have an opportunity to speak with a professional researcher, you'll find that data can be manipulated easily towards the desired outcome in many situations. Kinda disheartening, can't trust anything you read...but at least you can believe in it

Devh

Amsoil is marketing however there tests are conducted by certified independent labs using standardized tests. Redline oils went after them based on the rational behind the test data but not the actual numbers or ranking. These companies are subjected to defamation if the tests are factitious and that is why certified labs are used. Bottom line is there is truth to the advertising if there wasn't Mobil 1 wouldn't have taken Castrol to court in the past for advertising claims.

Take it for what it's worth, both Castrol and Pennzoil claim to reduce more wear then Mobil 1 in their advertising. If it's not true Mobil can have them remove the false advertising with an immediate injunction pending review and if they win the case they are entitled to damages. Mobil had no problems taking other oil companies to trial but in this regard their silence speaks volumes.

Devh

That's true however ASTM tests conducted by a certified lab is conclusive. Oil companies have every right to refute the test facility and invalidate their certification. But it's more then likely they know their own numbers and their only option is to improve them.

satiger

iTrader: (1)

My take is that all these lab tests are conducted in a control environment. It may or may not represent all variables that a real life presents. Can one consider lab test as base line - sure. I do that often. At least that represents benefits of using a product at an ideal condition/environment compare to another that has never been tested/validated.

I have the opportunity to work for a Japanese global company - not an auto industry, and work directly with their marketing and Legal teams. No matter what marketing wants to say, Legal always challenges and asks for validation/proof. Legal has the final say on the marketing content, at least in my company. Simple reason - as many pointed - to avoid potential law suits. I assume all major companies follows the same procedure.

My company soon be releasing a new product in the market for consumers. It's already available in Japan. In Japan its marketed by saying certain health benefits. Here (in US), Legal objected to that statement even though the same product is being sold in Japan with same exact statement and validated by their local Govt body. Marketing in US had to remove that statement in the US. My point being as many said, if marketing/commercial states something better be prepared to prove that in the court.

All being said, I am not partial to one oil vs other. My GX seems to like PP Ultra Platinum more than M1, Castrol, Toyota oil (reg Pennzoil?) etc. I don't see the same on my ES. Need more driving on LS to determine on LS oil. When I used Lexus of Portland long back, they used to stick Pennzoil oil change stickers on the windshield. When asked, service personal told me Lexus/Toyota uses Pennzoil that comes in drums. It was reg 5w-30 if that matters.

swfla

iTrader: (1)

I think it's a good point that other competing companies are needed/able to bring the truth out. But until they're challenged, many will bend the truth. Kind of like being sorry because you got caught. I don't want to call it human nature, maybe business nature.

Devh

Competition brings out the truth and so does forums like Bobistheoilguy which is made up of enthusiasts and people in the field of lubrication. Because people take the time to perform virgin oil analysis as well as used oil analysis we are getting a better picture of what is hidden from the consumer. Otherwise what do you have to go on except marketing.
The popularity of Pennzoil Platinum and German Castrol was quite obvious because of the good work enthusiasts have done by providing used oil analysis.

swfla

iTrader: (1)

Good point. All of us enthusiasts contribute in ways we don't even realize!

gemigniani

Bobistheoilguy is owned and moderated by specialty lube salesmen. It exists to make money on sales of specialty lube products and from sponsorships. Pennzoil is their sponsor so they push Pennzoil. Blackstone labs is also a sponsor so they push oil analysis. These lube salesmen laugh all the way to the bank as they watch thousands of groupies faithfully accept their extended oil change intervals using synthetics and oil analysis religion.

The truth is thousands of members of the Toyota 400,000 mile club used conventional dino oils and never spent a nickel on oil analysis or specialty additives and cleaners. Conventional oil reduces wear so well that a Toyota engine can still have like new compression on all cylinders after 400,000 miles.

Fleet managers are well aware that conventional oil reduces wear to negligible levels and that's why UPS and FedEx managers save even more money using the lowest priced oils available - the recycled conventional oils.

Doublebase

I agree with some of what you wrote - the part about conventional/cheap oil - I do believe that as long as you change your oil regularly, you can get away with most any oil. I believe this because I've don't it myself....seen others do it...and worked for a fleet where every car got 5w30 Dino, and did 7,500 oil change intervals on it...without one single problem. And this fleet did this throughout the entire U.S.

The people at Blackstone don't even bother using synthetic oil - at least that's what I've read on Bobs the oil guy.

As for Bob's The Oil Guy...I don't get the feeling they push Penzoil or any other oil/additives. In fact I find the entire site to be totally unbiased. And Blackstone labs is just one of the labs people use over there...are they credible? I have no idea, but it's probably more credible than some guy with grease all over him, telling you when you should change your oil (although I also believe that a lot of those guys know what they're talking about too, because they've actually done it).

As for my LS, I put high quality synthetic in it because it makes me feel better - that's the only reason I do it. As for my 1999 Honda Accord...I've put 5w30, 10w30, 5w20, diesel oil, mystery oil, synthetic..some of them all at the same time...whatever I had laying around the shop. I even put lawnmower oil in it one summer (the type that would freeze in the winter). I also ran Walmrt Supertech pretty regularly. I never bought a name brand for it, not even once and I never had one single issue...no vtec screens clogged...no rings got gummed up...nothing. The car is still running at 284,000 miles. I still drive it to take my bike, mountain biking (only because I won't put a bike rack on the back of the LS).

satiger

iTrader: (1)

Can you please find and share which "specialty lube" owns BITOG?. And BITOG pushes Pennzoil?. Have you ever used that forum?. 10 years back, when I posted in that forum asking for best high mileage oil, overwhelming majority sided with Mobile1 HM. Based on that info and other readings, I went with M1 HM and never ever regretted that decision. Not a single drop of oil I need to add in between oil changes and no leaks whatsoever. I attribute that to quality oil.

Again, BITOG or specialty lube company didn't pushed me to use synthetic. Blackstone pushes for oil analysis?. Seriously????. Do you ever realize that are many other places available should one decides to do oil analysis?.

Interesting fact is even this CL forum has sponsor vendors. Can one say CL is pushing for these vendors????????

As long as oil changes are done by manufactures spec, these engines will last longer. Can you please find out from your 'sources' about those cars that have driven 400,000 miles or so with conventional oils whether they ever need to add oil in between oil changes?. How many times gaskets and seals have been replaced?. Just for the records, my ES (15 years - 247k miles), is still with original gasket and seals. No leaks. Doesn't require 'refills' between oil changes.

Also you might want to know - fleet vehicles don't even last 200,000 miles forget about 400,000.

Devh

Satiger covered a lot of my response.

I think a lot of what I have to say is cherry picked out of context.

When you come down to it you have two choices. Anecdotal evidence from those on the internet or actual data derived from tests that you can draw inferences from. Not just one test but trends and confirmed from more then one independent lab.

Then you have actual peer reviewed white papers that are far better then advertising or a hunch.

I also believe if brand A oil is better then brand B but it costs significantly more it's not worth the expense unless it can be demonstrated that it's superior at reducing ownership costs over the period used.

The case with Synthetic is overwhelmingly true in that it will reduce ownership costs over the life period of the car in the form of increased efficiency, resistance to evaporation which means that it's least likely to use make up oil then conventional oil and labor costs from frequent oil changes. That's savings over conventional oil.

Then you are further benefited by synthetic oil because it has been proven to produce less wear and tear which is demonstrated clearly by oil analysis not anecdotal folklore of a one of vehicle with shotty sampling vudu methodology.
Through tests they have demonstrated that frequent oil changes create more wear not less as some people like to think. This data is actually proven on fleet vehicles where cost benefit analysis is taken a lot more seriously then your typical owner.

What I would like to see are actual links to articles or white papers that back up ones opinion or rational based in science then calling foul by forms that have advertising unless it can be demonstrated that there is a bias in the form of censorship.

roadfrog

I'll play devil's advocate (as I do believe synthetics are superior).

I recall a comprehensive test done by CR many years ago. It was conducted on a fleet of NY taxi cabs. The test involved using various oils including synthetics on countless cabs and then conducting teardowns of the engines after a hundred thousand or so miles. They concluded no wear differences in any of the engines, nor were there any noticeable differences in the reliability of these various engines. Keep in mind that NY cabs encounter some of the harshest conditions known to the automotive world.

Devh

I remember reading the same test long ago. Back then synthetics were not the same synthetic oils and formulation like we have today. Notably the multi viscosity additives were subjected to breaking down just as badly as conventional oil and it had to be changed out at the same interval as conventional oil as a result. Some racers back then ran straight weight oil just because multi viscosity oil additives sheared the oil under high heat.
Conventional oil has also changed considerably too and if you pared up a modern conventional oil with yesteryear synthetic it would beat it on virgin and used oil analysis.
You also have to consider engine design back then was probably not hard on oil at the expense of inefficiency, weight and loose tolerances.

As the technology got better the gap between synthetic oil and conventional oil widened and it's mostly due to the formulations which are ever changing and the quality of the base stock. These newer synthetics do not shear easy and have better wear additives which allows them to go longer between changes.
As a result the industry has adopted these newer oils including newer conventional oil to take advantage of engine design where they require higher spec oils as in the case of many European cars that require their own approved specification. The demands of motor oil to meet these newer engine designs is more important then ever.

I would like to see CR do a test on a modern BMW. Conventional non BMW spec vs the approved synthetic oil . There has been anecdotal evidence of some running non approved oil in their BMWs and seizing up the engine as a result.
Eventually what you will see is a phasing out of conventional oil just as we have seen the disappearance of 10w-30 from the store shelves.