Using Regular gas in an 08 LS460
11-12-15, 08:50 PM
#91
Driver
contrary to popular (myth) belief, 93 is not "Cleaner" and doesn't make your engine run better or any of that crap. it's all the same stuff
cbc did a great documentary on this and it's only 15 minutes, in summary, any "premium" gas is a scam
cbc did a great documentary on this and it's only 15 minutes, in summary, any "premium" gas is a scam
11-12-15, 09:15 PM
#92
It is a myth that it's cleaner which I agree with however it's not a scam for engines that are designed around premium fuel. Try running regular unleaded in a turbocharged car and see what happens.
See what happens when you take modern high compression four-cylinder engine and Rev it to 8300 RPMs.
See what happens when you have a tired carbonized motor that starts pinging while going up a hill.
I agree that you should not run a car on premium for engines are designed for regular unleaded however publications like Consumer Reports are very misleading and almost out of touch on trying to educate the consumer on the thriftiness of using lower octane fuel in a car that requires premium.
If it was so simple why don't they offer all cars with high compression motors and let the consumer choose what fuel they would like to run. They could do this and save money by streamlining their product but it's not possible that's why they may make the same engine and design it with a lower compression so it can be economical and reduce ownership costs.
See what happens when you take modern high compression four-cylinder engine and Rev it to 8300 RPMs.
See what happens when you have a tired carbonized motor that starts pinging while going up a hill.
I agree that you should not run a car on premium for engines are designed for regular unleaded however publications like Consumer Reports are very misleading and almost out of touch on trying to educate the consumer on the thriftiness of using lower octane fuel in a car that requires premium.
If it was so simple why don't they offer all cars with high compression motors and let the consumer choose what fuel they would like to run. They could do this and save money by streamlining their product but it's not possible that's why they may make the same engine and design it with a lower compression so it can be economical and reduce ownership costs.
Last edited by Devh; 11-13-15 at 10:23 AM.
11-12-15, 11:04 PM
#93
Driver
It is a myth that it's cleaner which I agree with however it's not a scam for engines that are designed around premium fuel. Try running regular unleaded in a turbocharged car and see what happens.
See what happens when you take modern high compression four-cylinder engine and Rev it to 8300 RPMs.
See what happens when you have a tired carbonized motor that starts pinging while going up a hill.
I agree that you should not run a car on premium were engines are designed for regular unleaded however publications like Consumer Reports are very misleading and almost out of touch on trying to educate the consumer on the thriftiness of using lower octane fuel in a car that requires premium.
If it was so simple why why don't they offer all cars with high compression motors and let the consumer choose what fuel they would like to run. They could do this and save money by streamlining their product but it's not possible that's why they may make the same engine and design it with a lower compression so it can be economical and reduce ownership costs.
See what happens when you take modern high compression four-cylinder engine and Rev it to 8300 RPMs.
See what happens when you have a tired carbonized motor that starts pinging while going up a hill.
I agree that you should not run a car on premium were engines are designed for regular unleaded however publications like Consumer Reports are very misleading and almost out of touch on trying to educate the consumer on the thriftiness of using lower octane fuel in a car that requires premium.
If it was so simple why why don't they offer all cars with high compression motors and let the consumer choose what fuel they would like to run. They could do this and save money by streamlining their product but it's not possible that's why they may make the same engine and design it with a lower compression so it can be economical and reduce ownership costs.
11-13-15, 07:20 AM
#94
Lexus Fanatic
Yeah I gotta agree with Nick, I appreciate the agreement Oldfart, but you clearly don't understand what "octane" is and its role in how the fuel combusts. Higher octane fuel does not create more power. You don't need "all the octane you can get" to get moving from a stop. Higher octane fuels resist compression better, which is why higher performance higher compression engines require them. Using lower octane fuel in these engines can cause the fuel to ignite before it reaches the combustion chamber of the engine, which causes knocking.
The reason using lower octane fuel in a car like the Lexus robs power is not because the fuel itself "has more power", its because the engine computer retards the timing of the engine to compensate for the lower detonation resistance of the fuel.
So I agree, lower octane will not hurt the engine...it just keeps your premium Lexus that you paid for from performing at its best. "You don't need that power"...well no, but you don't NEED an $80,000 LS460 either.
The reason using lower octane fuel in a car like the Lexus robs power is not because the fuel itself "has more power", its because the engine computer retards the timing of the engine to compensate for the lower detonation resistance of the fuel.
So I agree, lower octane will not hurt the engine...it just keeps your premium Lexus that you paid for from performing at its best. "You don't need that power"...well no, but you don't NEED an $80,000 LS460 either.
11-13-15, 08:35 AM
#95
You state that "there is no reason why any Lexus can't take regular 87" " .
Let me give you an example where this is explicitly not true.
2013 Lexus RX 450h
"Use of unleaded gasoline with an octane rating lower than 91 may result in engine knocking and significantly reduced performance. Persistent knocking can lead to engine damage and should be corrected by refueling with higher octane unleaded gasoline."
Although it says "may" it doesn't mean that it wont knock and it wont knock where you can hear it.
If you hear knock it's already too late you have irreversibly damaged your engine. It will still run but you have shortened it's life. Why would anyone take a gamble on their engine when the manufacture cannot assure you will not have knock is beyond me.
This is the same kind of idiocy where some people think an illuminated oil light means that you are a little low on oil.
11-13-15, 09:36 AM
#96
Cobalt, Malibu, and Saturn Vue, 11.4:1 do not require premium
Equinox 11.7:1 doesn't require premium
11-13-15, 09:44 AM
#97
Porsche, for example, acknowledges that any of its modern production cars can be run on regular fuel without the risk of damage.
A spokesman for Porsche North America, Tony Fouladpour, added a caveat. “If you want the car to perform at its maximum capability, the best choice would not be 87,” he said. “But we do not forbid it.”
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed air into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
A spokesman for Porsche North America, Tony Fouladpour, added a caveat. “If you want the car to perform at its maximum capability, the best choice would not be 87,” he said. “But we do not forbid it.”
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed air into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
11-13-15, 02:04 PM
#98
This link is for those that think knock occur all the time.
https://www.bpworkshops.com.au/about...ock-explained/
When does knock occur?
Knock normally occurs at high throttle settings or when accelerating a manual at low engine speed
Full engine power – easing up on the accelerator can reduce engine knock
https://www.bpworkshops.com.au/about...ock-explained/
When does knock occur?
Knock normally occurs at high throttle settings or when accelerating a manual at low engine speed
Full engine power – easing up on the accelerator can reduce engine knock
11-13-15, 02:36 PM
#99
This link is for those that think knock occur all the time.
https://www.bpworkshops.com.au/about...ock-explained/
When does knock occur?
Knock normally occurs at high throttle settings or when accelerating a manual at low engine speed
Full engine power – easing up on the accelerator can reduce engine knock
https://www.bpworkshops.com.au/about...ock-explained/
When does knock occur?
Knock normally occurs at high throttle settings or when accelerating a manual at low engine speed
Full engine power – easing up on the accelerator can reduce engine knock
High throttle settings is misleading and unless you are ginger footing the car around so you don't harm the engine is down right dangerous. Using power when it's needed is something everyone uses every day and not necessarily racing the car. Given enough time, repeated detonation will accelerate the wear of the engines internals. You may get 100k from your engine but the life of the engine will be shortened and the engine will become noisy as a best case scenario.
I can see how you may use 87 in a pinch but I think Toyota wouldn't have published a warning if they didn't think it wasn't a big deal.
Apart from running the car low on oil detonation is the next big killers of engines. Why risk it to save a few pennies. it's far better to give your car a margin of safety.
11-13-15, 06:07 PM
#100
https://static.cobbtuning.com/cobbtu...20FAQ%20v2.pdf
I thought I should throw this up here because it's a good read. Engine management is not accurate especially when the car gets older. Maybe when they come out with a newer ODB3 engine management system that uses better processors and can monitor cylinder temperature things will be a lot more accurate. Most engine tuners can advance timing of an engine to take advantage of some power left on the table because the manufacture generally keeps the car in a "safe space" especially if you get a bad tank of gas. When these horsepower freaks decide to tune to the limits just before knock they have essentially placed their engine in a precarious position where the timing may not be able to retard fast enough depending on various factors they never thought of when the car was on the dyno. They will generally shorten the life of an engine but it's not really important because a rebuild is right around the corner.
When we decide to use lower octane we are essentially doing the same thing by increasing the threshold to create knock where you can be one bad tank of gas away from a catastrophe or if your engines thermostat decides to stop functioning. Simply put running premium fuel is insurance to make sure your engine has a margin of safety.
I thought I should throw this up here because it's a good read. Engine management is not accurate especially when the car gets older. Maybe when they come out with a newer ODB3 engine management system that uses better processors and can monitor cylinder temperature things will be a lot more accurate. Most engine tuners can advance timing of an engine to take advantage of some power left on the table because the manufacture generally keeps the car in a "safe space" especially if you get a bad tank of gas. When these horsepower freaks decide to tune to the limits just before knock they have essentially placed their engine in a precarious position where the timing may not be able to retard fast enough depending on various factors they never thought of when the car was on the dyno. They will generally shorten the life of an engine but it's not really important because a rebuild is right around the corner.
When we decide to use lower octane we are essentially doing the same thing by increasing the threshold to create knock where you can be one bad tank of gas away from a catastrophe or if your engines thermostat decides to stop functioning. Simply put running premium fuel is insurance to make sure your engine has a margin of safety.
11-13-15, 06:33 PM
#101
Lexus Fanatic
Sonata 11.3:1 doesn't require premium
Cobalt, Malibu, and Saturn Vue, 11.4:1 do not require premium
Equinox 11.7:1 doesn't require premium
Cobalt, Malibu, and Saturn Vue, 11.4:1 do not require premium
Equinox 11.7:1 doesn't require premium
This link is for those that think knock occur all the time.
https://www.bpworkshops.com.au/about...ock-explained/
When does knock occur?
Knock normally occurs at high throttle settings or when accelerating a manual at low engine speed
Full engine power – easing up on the accelerator can reduce engine knock
https://www.bpworkshops.com.au/about...ock-explained/
When does knock occur?
Knock normally occurs at high throttle settings or when accelerating a manual at low engine speed
Full engine power – easing up on the accelerator can reduce engine knock
"Just reduce engine power" "reduce throttle"...its an $80,000 luxury car...how about spend $5 more and put the proper fuel in it so you don't have to think about how you drive it?
11-13-15, 06:55 PM
#102
^^^
Why do you keep quoting me if you do not have valid argument?
Where did I say that I need all the power I can get? You just cannot understand that when engine is in vulnerable position I need more octane.
You brought up an argument that this is a DI engine which in fact supports my argument not yours.
Now you are saying that high compression is OK as long as it is main stream?
Would you like to explain how engine dynamics have anything to do with value of the car while you are at it.
Why do you keep quoting me if you do not have valid argument?
Where did I say that I need all the power I can get? You just cannot understand that when engine is in vulnerable position I need more octane.
You brought up an argument that this is a DI engine which in fact supports my argument not yours.
Now you are saying that high compression is OK as long as it is main stream?
Would you like to explain how engine dynamics have anything to do with value of the car while you are at it.
11-13-15, 07:14 PM
#103
Lexus Fanatic
^^^
Why do you keep quoting me if you do not have valid argument?
Where did I say that I need all the power I can get? You just cannot understand that when engine is in vulnerable position I need more octane.
You brought up an argument that this is a DI engine which in fact supports my argument not yours.
Now you are saying that high compression is OK as long as it is main stream?
Would you like to explain how engine dynamics have anything to do with value of the car while you are at it.
Why do you keep quoting me if you do not have valid argument?
Where did I say that I need all the power I can get? You just cannot understand that when engine is in vulnerable position I need more octane.
You brought up an argument that this is a DI engine which in fact supports my argument not yours.
Now you are saying that high compression is OK as long as it is main stream?
Would you like to explain how engine dynamics have anything to do with value of the car while you are at it.
If you don't need or want the attributes and performance of the Lexus LS, why did you pay a premium to buy one?
Are you disputing that the engine will put out less performance with regular fuel? Because thats the only argument I am making. You can't use fuel of one octane rating for acceleration and fuel of another octane rating for cruising...so what exactly is your point?
11-13-15, 08:39 PM
#104
Driver
Porsche, for example, acknowledges that any of its modern production cars can be run on regular fuel without the risk of damage.
A spokesman for Porsche North America, Tony Fouladpour, added a caveat. “If you want the car to perform at its maximum capability, the best choice would not be 87,” he said. “But we do not forbid it.”
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed air into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
A spokesman for Porsche North America, Tony Fouladpour, added a caveat. “If you want the car to perform at its maximum capability, the best choice would not be 87,” he said. “But we do not forbid it.”
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed air into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
LOL even porsche acknowledges that premium gas is a scam.... and porsche is up there with supercars, if porsche can take regular 87. then lexus, benz, bmw, audi, and everything under can take 87 and it'll be just as good as 94
11-13-15, 09:18 PM
#105
Lexus Fanatic
But, it is not the "same stuff" it has a higher octane rating and resists detonation at higher temperatures. If your engine doesn't need that, it doesn't do anything for you.