satiger

iTrader: (1)

Very informative thread. Form technical stand point, what are the differences between Optima red top vs. Diehard platinum ?.

jmcraney

The Optima batteries are "AGM Batteries" and the Diehards are "Flooded Cell Batteries."

The Lexus LS460, like nearly all US cars and Japanese cars, is designed to use a flooded cell battery and produces a constant 14.4V battery charging voltage. Some of the European cars, notably some BMWs, are designed to use AGM batteries and have "smart charging systems" that support the AGM batteries.

The AGM batteries tolerate a wide range of charging voltages until the core temperature goes above 50degC and then the float voltage must be reduced below 13.8V to prevent damage due to overcharging. This may account for some of the premature AGM battery failures that are being reported in Internet discussion. Automobiles that are designed to use AGM batteries usually have the battery mounted away from the engine compartment, like in the trunk or under the back seat.

If you have some doubt that the charging requirements for AGM batteries are different from flooded cell batteries you can look at the newer battery chargers that are being sold on amazon.com. They have a mode selection switch that selects either Standard or AGM.

One of the advertised advantages of AGM batteries is that they can be mounted in closed areas because they don't produce any corrosive or explosive gasses. Since the LS460 battery is mounted in the engine compartment that doesn't apply.

Another advantage claim is the superior starting power. The LS460s have computer controlled gasoline engines that start very easily, even at extreme temperatures - these are not diesel engines.

A claim that the AGMs have an advantage because they can be "deep cycled" doesn't apply for most of us because we don't sit around with the accessories powered and the engine off. The deep cycle advantage may apply if you don't drive your car for extended periods.

The claim that the AGMs can be charged rapidly is true but no advantage when they are used in the cars that are designed for flooded cell batteries. In cars with fixed 14.4V charging systems the charge rate is limited to support the standard type batteries.

The claim that the AGMs have superior reserve power doesn't help most of us as we only use the battery for starting the car. Those power hogging accessories are only in use when the engine is running and then their power is supplied by the engine driven generator which also produces some power to charge the battery.

As for maintenance, the AGMs are truly maintenance free. Most of the flooded cell batteries that come in new cars are the maintenance free type and require little attention for a 3 or 4 years after which you may need to add some distilled water to keep the plates covered.

As to durability, AGMs and flooded cell batteries are about equal if they are maintained properly and not "deep cycled." The LS460s are designed to prevent deep cycling but many have had doorjamb switch problems that allowed the complete discharge of the batteries due to the headlights staying on and those kinds of events have a detrimental effect on the life of the battery. Seems like the the allowable cycle depth for AGMs is 25% and the flooded cell type is 50% SOC.

The AGMs are more expensive but not prohibitively so.

Will Lexus take warranty exception if you use an AGM as a replacement? I don't know.

What is the best choice? Either type works in many situations.

Shibumi1

these videos only prove my point further... if the yellow an blue are the same battery that means they are both DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES... not designed to be charged by the alternator!!! but rather a battery charger (so every night when u get home you'll need to plug in or your batt or it will prematurely die) .. refer 1:16... the reds are not deep cycle (neither are the oem batts). So my previous statements stand as accurate.. the alternator in the car provides power for the car an it's systems. the batt is designed to start the car only.. all other power "should" be coming from the alternator. but any surplus power draw is supplied by the batt.. because the red can be recharged much faster than the yellow or blue. it's actually the best for automotive use.. and as starting batts are designed to provide high power output for short periods of time they work better for sound systems too.. (again being rapidly recharged by the alternator) thanks for proving my point I couldn't have done it better...

it does however show why a little knowledge is dangerous I'm sure plenty of people watched that video an came up with the wrong conclusion as well.. Deep cycle batteries don't belong in normal passenger vehicles..

Shibumi1

@jmcraney.. well put the only side note I'll add is something I stated earlier.. the internal resistance of an AGM is 1/4 that of a fluid filled batt..ie less strain on the alternator.. so an alternator with 4 red's has the same load as an alternator with 1 fluid filled batt.. so if u can achieve the same power output with less strain why wouldn't u? now the rest of your cars systems can operate at peak efficiency.. again fluid filled batts are cheaper which is why auto manufacturers use them.. $30 savings x 1 million cars.. $30 million dollar savings...duh...

jmcraney

It depends on how you define "alternator strain." If that is relative to the current that might be drawn from an unlimited current source, then the current would be higher if the battery's resistance were lower - it's the old Ohms Law thing I=E/R. The LS460, being a well designed automobile, does not allow the alternator to be strained by high current demand, because it is current limited and protects the alternator and charging electronics from battery faults and other faults.

superdenso

.

Reds are for cars that are difficult to start, and cars that may sit a while. The Yellow is for cars that are hard to start and may be laden with a lot of electronics, it is the best of both. The marketing vids suggest yellow when in doubt of your situation. Whenever conditions are less than ideal the flooded cells will bite the dust. Old Yeller' is a bit more robust than Red. A new battery is better than an old battery. So what's most important: if your battery is weak or on the "go down", get a new 12v battery of some type.

jmcraney

The best indicator of when to replace your battery is not when it is weak or "on the go down" (great expression) although those are strong definite indicators, the best indicator is when the fully charged State Of Charge falls below 75%. If a battery pro or service pro tells you that your battery needs to be replaced it's probably time to replace it, even if you have had no indications. Replacement will save you from inconvenience and you will not leave much money on the table in terms of discarding a functional battery.

It's very easy to estimate the SOC with an inexpensive voltmeter or inexpensive hydrometer.

superdenso

I have a battery rule, if it's five years old it's out. No testing, my voltmeter is not waking from it's slumber; it's over if I still have the car. JM we can debate good, better, best ways to test batteries and alternators when $300 solves both concerns. There are plenty of youtube videos to watch the battery, voltage regulator, & alternator tests; besides, Advance Auto is good for battery/charging diagnostic purposes. The irony of this thread is there is another cl thread that has turned into plush service department waiting room are worth paying 3x more for services. If anything it can make you giggle It's the internet tale of two cities

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...ake-job-4.html

satiger

iTrader: (1)

Thanks JM, Shibumi1 and others. Learned something new. Five years back was looking into Red for my ES but went with Diehard platinum. Don't remember the exact reason for that.

Shibumi1

I'm glad to help.. fyi the reds an yellows are the same strength the only major difference is the charging cycles of each(an yellows cost more)...yes yellows can be drained lower then a red(many more times) then recharged back to full(but that requires a trickle charge an a long period of time) . but most people won't drain a batt that low in normal use... so decide on your normal usage an purchase accordingly..but it stands to reason why optima's get a bad rep. it's because people are sold yellows without the knowledge that they should charged by a battery charger (as stated in the video) so unless u have a minimum 45mins drive every time u get in the car to bring the batt to 100%(remember it will only take about 10amp of charge) overtime that batt will surely die earlier than expected. as opposed to the red which will recharge to 100% in far less time (15 mins on average).. this has been an interesting debate.. so please inform me of your purchase an how your decision works out.. I'm honestly curious to hear the outcome. as I'm sure others will too..

as for me all 4 of my reds are doing well... the oldest being 6yrs.. the 2 newest comin up on 3yrs... an my wife's which is almost 4yrs.. Zero issues (an all the cars have significantly upgraded audio & lighting on stock alternators)

superdenso

lol can you please post the video that reveals what you're talking about. If this was the stock honda accord forum and your car sits for weeks I would say red top all day long. I had reds in my Acuras until 2004. The reds have their limits and that limit is lower than the yellow. If you don't like my choice don't follow my in my steps. However deciding that a battery will die because someone told you about their unconfirmed experience is insanity not science.

Shibumi1

there's no need for me to post a video the previous video clearly states that the yellow be charged by a charger not an alternator... ea battery has its uses.. an from my personal experience 28 yrs in the car audio industry (24 as a certified master installer) I've seen more yellows fail than reds.. but to ea his own.. take my advice or dont.. it makes me no difference.. I've made my choice.. fyi no deep cycle battery can be "rapid charged" without shortening it's lifespan..

@jmcraney perhaps strain is the wrong term... properly put.. the longer the alternator wastes energy charging a battery the greater the chance of failure due to over taxing a system.. yes most cars are designed to not exceed the alternators max output.. but turn on the headlights, a/c, stereo, a/c seats, charging cell phones, etc.. an alternator can prematurely fail..it was claimed earlier it's an unlimited power source.. this is far from the truth.. alternators fail all the time from "normal use" why is that? because 30 secs after get in we crank EVERYTHING up... plug everything in an drive 5, 10, 15 mins.. whatever.. we don't let the charging system do its job properly..
as habit I let the engine run at least 5mins b4 driving off.. 1st to let the engine properly warm up an circulate oil an fluids (different topic) but to also let the battery recover..

here's a test for all to try.(you'll need a digital multimeter). measure your batts voltage prior to starting, then while cranking ,then while running.. ideal voltage while running with all accessories off is 14.4 (most cars never achieve this) but see how long it takes to get above 13.75 volts(@ idle)... (for giggles try it again with all the accessories on) it'll take longer I promise.. then you'll see my point.. however long it takes to reach 13.75.. that's the absolute minimum you should drive the car everytime u start it up..to have prolonged battery life..

I do cheat however all my cars have remote start (I'm in Florida and it's hot as blazes 10 months out of the year) so I start them at least 5 mins b4 I'm ready to leave... but even if I don't use the remote start I still wait 5 mins b4 driving....

however as I said b4. to each his own.. but this is the same advice an info I give my customers an the ones that listen have few if ever any voltage issues..

to quote my favorite superhero.
"with great power comes great responsibility"

Shibumi1

here's some food for thought.. from optima's own website.(pics in order red/yellow /red/yellow) plus there's a $40 price difference via the website.. $220 v $267
clearly shows red being stronger.. with yellow having slightly more reserve time 800 amp/750 amp , 50mins/55 mins (100 mins/ 120mins).. I could go on like this forever... but it is what it is.(you'll choose to belive what u want).. it's just like the iPhone / Android debate you like what you like regardless what the other side proves or disproves.. hopefully I've at the least given u some food for thought..

to the gentleman with the honda/acuras.. today's cars have a ton more tech in them... all of which goto sleep(power down or low to no current mode) after a period of time.. to preserve batt voltage. if they all stayed active I doubt any car could last the night without needing a jump. . As for the dealership comments...they will always tell why u shouldn't use non oem parts.. but the simple truth is they want your $$$$$ rather than u spending it elsewhere.. period full stop..
in some cases I may agree with them (if it's a vehicle specific dealer only part) but more often than not I do my research an get the best part for the job.. (regardless of price) but I'm a car guy that always want the best...

superdenso

Shibumi - At 1:50 in the link below, the narrator says when in doubt use a yellow. The RED is for starting only! Not the "best" for in the fender hideaway installation.

superdenso

At 2:55 of the attached video this narrator says, "Of the red or yellow the YELLOW is the best battery for automotive applications. Yes he goes on to discuss what charger should be used at home if you intend to park your car for months or you plan on discharging the yellow down to the basement and bringing it back up. Reds or flooded batteries have very few of these recharges in their tanks, maybe 5 or less. But let's not get things out of context. Further, reds are for starting only and not for fender mounting. Sorry to debunk your myth, but this information is to help not hurt. Unless that extra red is in the fender to help the other red start the LS, it's not a recommended course.