2017 Genesis G90, who's buying it?
10-25-16, 08:43 PM
#31
Instructor
I would like to give a brief input about my past purchase of a Toyota Camry since someone mentioned it. A few years back after owing cars like Lexus LS 430, Chevy Corvette, Bmw 550i and Nissan 300zx. And before that driven 2001 Honda Accord V6 and 1992 Toyota Camry. I decided to be economical and buy a car that is in a sense to save money for other investments. It was not a great idea. The Camry i bought was a 2012 Camry XLE V6. Keep in mind every car i have own was purchased new.
I felt that the Camry was bland and had alot of little teething problems that bothered me. The main problem was the transmission. It shifted very rough. I feel every bit of the car shifting each gear, I can feel what gear i am in just by feeling my head bobble back and forth between shifts. The dealer told me this was normal. I had a ground wire that connects to engine bay rust and fall off causing check engine light to come on. The suspension was horibbly rough and would make me car sick everytime i take a long road trip. Poor lumbar support causing pain in my back. In contrast my 1996 300zx with sport suspension rode beter than that Camry. I felt the previous generation Camrys (the one that was still made in Japan) were much better built than the newer ones.
I travel alot for business and I rent alot of cars and crossovers. And many times i get into a Hyundai and Kia rentals. I feel that these newer 2014+ Korean cars are well built and feel just as good in ride, power, and refinement as its Japanese compeditors and would not hesitate buying one if I want to be economical again. They no longer make second class cars. They are approaching First class status. Or at lease this is how I felt having driven alot of them. I particularly like how the Hyundai Santa Fe, the Hyundai Genesis and Kia Sedona felt and rode. They all felt quite luxurious, refined and comfortable.
I felt that the Camry was bland and had alot of little teething problems that bothered me. The main problem was the transmission. It shifted very rough. I feel every bit of the car shifting each gear, I can feel what gear i am in just by feeling my head bobble back and forth between shifts. The dealer told me this was normal. I had a ground wire that connects to engine bay rust and fall off causing check engine light to come on. The suspension was horibbly rough and would make me car sick everytime i take a long road trip. Poor lumbar support causing pain in my back. In contrast my 1996 300zx with sport suspension rode beter than that Camry. I felt the previous generation Camrys (the one that was still made in Japan) were much better built than the newer ones.
I travel alot for business and I rent alot of cars and crossovers. And many times i get into a Hyundai and Kia rentals. I feel that these newer 2014+ Korean cars are well built and feel just as good in ride, power, and refinement as its Japanese compeditors and would not hesitate buying one if I want to be economical again. They no longer make second class cars. They are approaching First class status. Or at lease this is how I felt having driven alot of them. I particularly like how the Hyundai Santa Fe, the Hyundai Genesis and Kia Sedona felt and rode. They all felt quite luxurious, refined and comfortable.
10-26-16, 04:40 PM
#32
I feel that these newer 2014+ Korean cars are well built and feel just as good in ride, power, and refinement as its Japanese compeditors and would not hesitate buying one if I want to be economical again. They no longer make second class cars. They are approaching First class status. Or at lease this is how I felt having driven alot of them. I particularly like how the Hyundai Santa Fe, the Hyundai Genesis and Kia Sedona felt and rode. They all felt quite luxurious, refined and comfortable.
10-26-16, 08:01 PM
#33
Pole Position
Thread Starter
I just picked up another 2014 Equus yesterday. 24K miles for $31,000. Vehicle is in mint condition.
Great value at that price. I'll likely hold out for a clean lease return V8 model G90.
Great value at that price. I'll likely hold out for a clean lease return V8 model G90.
10-27-16, 03:31 PM
#34
The G90 only options are AWD and engine size. Every electronic aides available like BSM, LKA, radar cruise, etc are standard. I've seen articles and pictures in car magazines and it looks impressive.
10-28-16, 06:25 AM
#35
Pole Position
Saw one in-person for the first time yesterday in Orlando - it was the G90, 5.0, black with lightly tinted windows. I was one car behind it and one lane over- the lines on the car from that particular angle (back and diagonal- where you can see the entire back and side of the car) are really nice. It looks like a high-end luxury vehicle. I ended up getting even with him and then in front of him as we turned- while I love the headlights, I still can't quite get over the front end (only the grille) as it reminds me of a Ford or Chrysler and IMHO loses a little of the high-end prestigious look. Overall, very impressive looking car in-person. Looks every bit as good as the photos- I can't wait to see the interior in-person because the interior pics look beautiful. Certainly a contender and likely offers the best value in the entire segment.
10-28-16, 06:57 AM
#36
Former Sponsor
There are a lot of ways that I could reply to this. But to say there is a wide margin of quality between a Camry and best in class quality in my opinion, is laughable. We're all entitled our opinions. So I don't have any issue with you having yours. I could sit back, pop some popcorn and spend all day talking about differences that I saw everyday, first hand. And the resulting (efforts to) solve said issues. But I'll limit it to just a few examples. You have your opinion, I have mine, there's nothing wrong with that. But here is a few examples. At the TMMK plant at Toyota, when the vehicles reach the end of the assembly line, probably 24 out of 25 vehicles would be driven off the end of the assembly line by a employee of a different company. The employee that drove it away was an employee of TMS (Toyota Motor Sales), and it was driven into a neighboring lot, and straight up into train cars, or parked to be loaded onto a hauler. TMMK and TTC employees (as I remember) were only allowed on that lot with a TMS escort because there were safety concerns because the cars had to be moved to get loaded and shipped out, or the whole lot would turn into a cluster. So, pedestrians were in jeopardy or in the way causing delays. Maybe 1 out of 25 vehicles were taken off the end of the assembly line, to the test track to audit. Maybe 1 in 500 had some small issue to be addressed.
At Hyundai, every single car left the end of the production line and was driven by a plant employee out on the test track, and I'm not even joking 80% (in that neighborhood) required some repair. The brand new vehicles had a storage lot just outside the plant because the repair area was a complete disaster / cluster of cars parked everywhere. The most common repair event was a paint issue. So many paint issues that a local body shop was making HUGE money doing so many repairs that the plant repair shop didn't have time for. Frequent rattle of dropped fasteners left in the vehicles that required teardown and pull up of the carpet to find and remove these dropped and forgot about fasteners. The plant would run 11 to 13 hour production shifts but the repair area ran 24 hours a day, so that the plant could function. But regardless of the repair area running 24 hours, that area always was a cluster, and at least a couple cars a day would be damaged by backing into poles inside the plant (and these poles had foam wrapped around them and canvas wrapped & velcro'd to hold the foam in place to prevent / reduce damage). Other vehicles would receive damage from being bumped by another car in the plant because the repair area was such a cluster. I worked at the Kia plant and Hyundai plant both, it was the same story at both places. Just prior to the dyno cells (where transmission function was checked, wheel & headlight alignment took place) was a set of off-set "speed bumps." These off set speed-bumps or rumble strips were placed before the dyno cells so that the vehicles could be driven across these off-set rumble strips at 15 - 25 mph. It would shock the suspension and loosen it up so that any stresses built up during assembly in the suspension would be relieved PRIOR to the alignment in the dyno cells. There were 4 lanes / 4 dyno cells. We had umpteen complaints and warranty about new owners complaining about their cars pulling and dealers having to do alignments within a week or two after purchase. I was tasked to try to come to some understanding of why the high warranty claims.
Guess what? Those 4 lanes were NOT used to drive the vehicles across at speed. They were used as a parking lot leading to the dyno cells because production would get backed up, and there was no place to hold the vehicles in the plant because the repair area had vehicles parked from one end of the plant inside to the other! My sister bought a Sorento while I was there. It recently had to have a transmission replaced. But I won't knock it. It seems to have been pretty good to her to date. The transmission was replaced at like 97k miles because she had the 100k mile powertrain warranty. They honored it of course no question asked, and her dealer treated her nicely. No money out of her pocket for anything and they were courteous. Not many dealers (of any OEM) are so decent. Anyway, as far as the high repairs and plant clustering at Hyundai / Kia, that crap would NEVER happen in the Toyota plant because they would have a fit and heads would roll.
This next example, is part of the difference in the way things are done between the 2 companies, and is a large reason why the Hyundai plant's repair department is so busy is: At the Toyota plant, every tool used to apply a fastener is connected to a computer. The computer logs the torque applied, and it tracks the number of torques made. If a torque was not met, or it was missed, the line is stopped at the end of a work station. All the tools and parts are on a cart that follows the line, then advances to the next vehicle automatically. This is done about every 50 seconds. The lines stop infrequently, but if it does, the computer alerts the area to the reason so it is quickly corrected and the line is up and running ASAP. Workers who cause line problems are trained, retrained until they meet a certain productivity and are effective. Or are told to go away. At Hyundai, rare few tools are monitored. The vast majority are not. They carry tools where they need to be, do what they do. If they miss something, it can go undetected. At the Kia plant, there was a Sorrento my group was allowed to use to drive around the plant, and off-plant on an occasion. Why? Because for some reason a major component of the suspension was missed (seems like it was an upper control arm (I'm not a chassis expert)). But this missing upper control arm was NOT detected until the vehicle was driven on the test track. The driver detected something not right with the way it handled. It was found missing in repair. They deemed it too much effort & time to tear it down (whatever exactly was missing) because whatever was missing was determined that it might have stressed the underbody in that area, so it was too risky to sell to a customer. So it became my group's mule, for a while until it was crushed. You could look into the wheel well and see the missing component. But it was missed!
After my sister bought her vehicle, just for giggles, I looked up her VIN to see if it had any repairs done to it prior to leaving the plant. And it did, it had 2 paint repairs done to it. Both in the rear near the rear fender areas. I'm telling you, you can believe this or not, this does not happen at the Toyota plant. The vehicles come right off the assembly line so much closer to perfect that they don't even drive the vehicle off the line. An employee of another company does.
I have LOTS of stories like this, some I will not share. They're downright dangerous, and maybe I could get in trouble. The Hyundai plant guys had a cute little motto they would say, just being humorous. In reality it's what they were thinking, because they were so sick of dealing with problems. "Don't be a squealer, ship it to the dealer." The Korean plant workers would frequently go in and make small changes to fixturing that holds body parts together during a weld process. In order to improve some issue they were concerned about. These changes were supposed to be controlled by documentation. But these guys would just sneak in and change it overnight. The next day, boom some other area of the vehicle would be negatively affected by their actions, and those (American) guys in the body shop who were intimately familiar with all the tools and fixtures would trace it back, find where something had been modified (shimmed or something) in some way, then find their Korean counter-part, and sure enough, the Koreans would spill the beans that they came in last night and screwed with something. It was uncanny. CMM coordinate data for hole locations etc would look like a blood bath had taken place if all the out-of-tolerance data were bolded in red (and not lied about in the data).
That's just a few examples it goes on. There's a vehicle out there on the roads, that I can close a door in a certain way, and a small dent will form. I can cause certain vehicles to pop off plastic fasteners in wheel guard areas just by flexing a bumper in a peculiar way.
Anyway, that's enough of this on this thread. But, even though I don't believe the Hyundai / Kia vehicles to be the worst cars on the road, far from it, I will not be buying one.
- Jason
At Hyundai, every single car left the end of the production line and was driven by a plant employee out on the test track, and I'm not even joking 80% (in that neighborhood) required some repair. The brand new vehicles had a storage lot just outside the plant because the repair area was a complete disaster / cluster of cars parked everywhere. The most common repair event was a paint issue. So many paint issues that a local body shop was making HUGE money doing so many repairs that the plant repair shop didn't have time for. Frequent rattle of dropped fasteners left in the vehicles that required teardown and pull up of the carpet to find and remove these dropped and forgot about fasteners. The plant would run 11 to 13 hour production shifts but the repair area ran 24 hours a day, so that the plant could function. But regardless of the repair area running 24 hours, that area always was a cluster, and at least a couple cars a day would be damaged by backing into poles inside the plant (and these poles had foam wrapped around them and canvas wrapped & velcro'd to hold the foam in place to prevent / reduce damage). Other vehicles would receive damage from being bumped by another car in the plant because the repair area was such a cluster. I worked at the Kia plant and Hyundai plant both, it was the same story at both places. Just prior to the dyno cells (where transmission function was checked, wheel & headlight alignment took place) was a set of off-set "speed bumps." These off set speed-bumps or rumble strips were placed before the dyno cells so that the vehicles could be driven across these off-set rumble strips at 15 - 25 mph. It would shock the suspension and loosen it up so that any stresses built up during assembly in the suspension would be relieved PRIOR to the alignment in the dyno cells. There were 4 lanes / 4 dyno cells. We had umpteen complaints and warranty about new owners complaining about their cars pulling and dealers having to do alignments within a week or two after purchase. I was tasked to try to come to some understanding of why the high warranty claims.
Guess what? Those 4 lanes were NOT used to drive the vehicles across at speed. They were used as a parking lot leading to the dyno cells because production would get backed up, and there was no place to hold the vehicles in the plant because the repair area had vehicles parked from one end of the plant inside to the other! My sister bought a Sorento while I was there. It recently had to have a transmission replaced. But I won't knock it. It seems to have been pretty good to her to date. The transmission was replaced at like 97k miles because she had the 100k mile powertrain warranty. They honored it of course no question asked, and her dealer treated her nicely. No money out of her pocket for anything and they were courteous. Not many dealers (of any OEM) are so decent. Anyway, as far as the high repairs and plant clustering at Hyundai / Kia, that crap would NEVER happen in the Toyota plant because they would have a fit and heads would roll.
This next example, is part of the difference in the way things are done between the 2 companies, and is a large reason why the Hyundai plant's repair department is so busy is: At the Toyota plant, every tool used to apply a fastener is connected to a computer. The computer logs the torque applied, and it tracks the number of torques made. If a torque was not met, or it was missed, the line is stopped at the end of a work station. All the tools and parts are on a cart that follows the line, then advances to the next vehicle automatically. This is done about every 50 seconds. The lines stop infrequently, but if it does, the computer alerts the area to the reason so it is quickly corrected and the line is up and running ASAP. Workers who cause line problems are trained, retrained until they meet a certain productivity and are effective. Or are told to go away. At Hyundai, rare few tools are monitored. The vast majority are not. They carry tools where they need to be, do what they do. If they miss something, it can go undetected. At the Kia plant, there was a Sorrento my group was allowed to use to drive around the plant, and off-plant on an occasion. Why? Because for some reason a major component of the suspension was missed (seems like it was an upper control arm (I'm not a chassis expert)). But this missing upper control arm was NOT detected until the vehicle was driven on the test track. The driver detected something not right with the way it handled. It was found missing in repair. They deemed it too much effort & time to tear it down (whatever exactly was missing) because whatever was missing was determined that it might have stressed the underbody in that area, so it was too risky to sell to a customer. So it became my group's mule, for a while until it was crushed. You could look into the wheel well and see the missing component. But it was missed!
After my sister bought her vehicle, just for giggles, I looked up her VIN to see if it had any repairs done to it prior to leaving the plant. And it did, it had 2 paint repairs done to it. Both in the rear near the rear fender areas. I'm telling you, you can believe this or not, this does not happen at the Toyota plant. The vehicles come right off the assembly line so much closer to perfect that they don't even drive the vehicle off the line. An employee of another company does.
I have LOTS of stories like this, some I will not share. They're downright dangerous, and maybe I could get in trouble. The Hyundai plant guys had a cute little motto they would say, just being humorous. In reality it's what they were thinking, because they were so sick of dealing with problems. "Don't be a squealer, ship it to the dealer." The Korean plant workers would frequently go in and make small changes to fixturing that holds body parts together during a weld process. In order to improve some issue they were concerned about. These changes were supposed to be controlled by documentation. But these guys would just sneak in and change it overnight. The next day, boom some other area of the vehicle would be negatively affected by their actions, and those (American) guys in the body shop who were intimately familiar with all the tools and fixtures would trace it back, find where something had been modified (shimmed or something) in some way, then find their Korean counter-part, and sure enough, the Koreans would spill the beans that they came in last night and screwed with something. It was uncanny. CMM coordinate data for hole locations etc would look like a blood bath had taken place if all the out-of-tolerance data were bolded in red (and not lied about in the data).
That's just a few examples it goes on. There's a vehicle out there on the roads, that I can close a door in a certain way, and a small dent will form. I can cause certain vehicles to pop off plastic fasteners in wheel guard areas just by flexing a bumper in a peculiar way.
Anyway, that's enough of this on this thread. But, even though I don't believe the Hyundai / Kia vehicles to be the worst cars on the road, far from it, I will not be buying one.
- Jason
How long ago was it you worked for Hyundai? I would go so far as to consider myself an expert at assessing the quality of a car, I've done it with passion for so long, and you can see and feel the quality of a vehicle when you sit in it and drive it. You could feel those shortcomings in say a 90s or 80s Ford or GM or Chrysler...or an old Hyundai or Kia, but I feel none of that in my Sedona, or any other modern Hyundai/Kia products I have tried out. The quality is everywhere, from under the hood to the undercarriage, door jambs, firewall, beneath the dash...everything is high quality and well built. There are no rattles or looseness with use, materials stand up to abuse, paint and trim quality is excellent. I just see no evidence of any of what you have described here in the end product...nothing at all.
I have found Hyundai/Kia very accommodating also. For instance, I had warped rotors on both the Sedona and the LS460 about the same mileage in, Lexus told me to pound sand and offered to machine my rotors for $400, Kia replaced my rotors and pads for free and gave me a free tank of gas. Lexus would have done that 30, 20, 15, 10 years ago, not today. And thats Kia, not even the level of service they're going to provide for Genesis.
IMHO Toyota/Lexus are a little overrated nowadays when it comes to "quality" and "service". They rest too much on their name and have let the actual quality and service slip. Hyundai/Kia are on the way up and are working harder to build a better product and provide better service...and its working. Neighbor of mine just traded her Corolla on an Elantra, she's overjoyed and "would never buy another Toyota" because she loves her Sonata so much and liked it so much better than a new Corolla. Give it a few generations here and the landscape will be very different.
I don't think he's comparing the Camry to the LS. You don't need to, the Camry is completely unappealing compared to almost every competitor at its own price point IMHO. The Camry sells because its a "Toyota Camry", not because its the best product in its class because it isn't, not by a WIDE margin. Over time you'll see that wear on their market share, it already has.
Hyundai Sonata, Kia Optima, Mazda 6, Honda Accord, Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu...all of these vehicles are substantially better than a Camry in every way except perceived quality and reliability.
How long ago were you at Toyota?
Because if thats really the case that amount of effort was put in, and this Camry is what they came out with vs the competition with them "half assing it"...then Toyota truly has a problem on their hands because in my opinions and the opinions of a lot of others the end product is really mediocre.
I have found Hyundai/Kia very accommodating also. For instance, I had warped rotors on both the Sedona and the LS460 about the same mileage in, Lexus told me to pound sand and offered to machine my rotors for $400, Kia replaced my rotors and pads for free and gave me a free tank of gas. Lexus would have done that 30, 20, 15, 10 years ago, not today. And thats Kia, not even the level of service they're going to provide for Genesis.
IMHO Toyota/Lexus are a little overrated nowadays when it comes to "quality" and "service". They rest too much on their name and have let the actual quality and service slip. Hyundai/Kia are on the way up and are working harder to build a better product and provide better service...and its working. Neighbor of mine just traded her Corolla on an Elantra, she's overjoyed and "would never buy another Toyota" because she loves her Sonata so much and liked it so much better than a new Corolla. Give it a few generations here and the landscape will be very different.
I don't think he's comparing the Camry to the LS. You don't need to, the Camry is completely unappealing compared to almost every competitor at its own price point IMHO. The Camry sells because its a "Toyota Camry", not because its the best product in its class because it isn't, not by a WIDE margin. Over time you'll see that wear on their market share, it already has.
Hyundai Sonata, Kia Optima, Mazda 6, Honda Accord, Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu...all of these vehicles are substantially better than a Camry in every way except perceived quality and reliability.
How long ago were you at Toyota?
Because if thats really the case that amount of effort was put in, and this Camry is what they came out with vs the competition with them "half assing it"...then Toyota truly has a problem on their hands because in my opinions and the opinions of a lot of others the end product is really mediocre.
10-28-16, 07:08 AM
#37
^^^ Very interesting. Good to know, and this is why I love car forums. You never get this level of insider knowledge from magazines.
10-28-16, 07:19 AM
#38
Lexus Fanatic
You still didn't answer how long ago you worked in these capacities.
My question would be, if all of this is true which I'm not saying it's not...where is the impact in the end result? You say that they need paint work at the factory, well the paint on my Sedona is specifically one area that I'm really impressed with. It's higher quality, glossier and smoother than any paint I've had on a Toyota/Lexus product other than the LS. It resists chipping and scratching and etching FAR better. So, if they roll out of Toyota and there are no issues and they have to tinker with the paint afterwards at Hyundai/Kia, why do I care if the result is I have a vehicle with paint as nice as what I have?
All the obsessively overkill manufacturing procedures in the world don't mean anything if the net result in the product is not superior. Based on my experience, it is not superior. Every Lexus/Toyota I have had save the old ones had some sort of rattles, my Prius was almost undrivable it rattled so badly. My GS at the end I had to hold my leg against the console so it wouldn't rattle at idle in gear (they tried to fix it 3 times). Kia has no rattles. Not one, and it's not cared for or treated in any way as kindly as my Lexus cars have been. I don't drive the assembly process, I drive the assembly product.
With a Genesis with them being extra vigilant to create a product that stands up to super high quality vehicle I have no concerns that they will build a very high quality product, whether they arrive at that product the same way Toyota does is meaningless to me.
My question would be, if all of this is true which I'm not saying it's not...where is the impact in the end result? You say that they need paint work at the factory, well the paint on my Sedona is specifically one area that I'm really impressed with. It's higher quality, glossier and smoother than any paint I've had on a Toyota/Lexus product other than the LS. It resists chipping and scratching and etching FAR better. So, if they roll out of Toyota and there are no issues and they have to tinker with the paint afterwards at Hyundai/Kia, why do I care if the result is I have a vehicle with paint as nice as what I have?
All the obsessively overkill manufacturing procedures in the world don't mean anything if the net result in the product is not superior. Based on my experience, it is not superior. Every Lexus/Toyota I have had save the old ones had some sort of rattles, my Prius was almost undrivable it rattled so badly. My GS at the end I had to hold my leg against the console so it wouldn't rattle at idle in gear (they tried to fix it 3 times). Kia has no rattles. Not one, and it's not cared for or treated in any way as kindly as my Lexus cars have been. I don't drive the assembly process, I drive the assembly product.
With a Genesis with them being extra vigilant to create a product that stands up to super high quality vehicle I have no concerns that they will build a very high quality product, whether they arrive at that product the same way Toyota does is meaningless to me.
10-28-16, 11:51 AM
#39
Wow, you guys really make me want to test drive the Genesis G90.
It is really hard to test drive a G90 in Canada. I called my local Hyundai dealer and they said they won’t have any Genesis dealership in my province in the near future. They will have some Boutique store setup in Toronto and you can order from there.
My local Hyundai dealer don’t even have Hyundai Genesis for me to try. They say they just don’t sell too much of it.
It is really hard to test drive a G90 in Canada. I called my local Hyundai dealer and they said they won’t have any Genesis dealership in my province in the near future. They will have some Boutique store setup in Toronto and you can order from there.
My local Hyundai dealer don’t even have Hyundai Genesis for me to try. They say they just don’t sell too much of it.
10-28-16, 11:54 AM
#40
Lexus Fanatic
Its kind of hard to drive one everywhere...thats one of the big challenges they will have.
10-28-16, 12:41 PM
#41
You need to find the place to build Genesis dealership in rich neighborhood, it take money and time. Good location are hard to find.
I heard material used in Tesla looks cheap comparing to Lexus
I heard material used in Tesla looks cheap comparing to Lexus
10-28-16, 12:56 PM
#43
10-28-16, 03:01 PM
#44
Lexus Fanatic
The argument that "its a $70k Hyundai" is ridiculous coming from a Lexus owner lol
10-28-16, 04:36 PM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
it's still a 70k dollar Hundai