SW17LS

Exactly. And yes a big part of what makes Genesis attractive is their value proposition, but the same was true in a significant way for Lexus, and really still is. A Lexus has always been and remains a value player in every segment they compete in. When the first LS400 came out it was the butt of late night comedy monologues.

Hyundai and Kia have been removed from making junk by 10-15 years. I don't see how anybody could say that wasn't the case once they had experience with the product.

In any event competition is good, it moves the industry forward. An excellent Genesis will push Lexus to make a better LS.

superdenso

Hyundai-Kia can't get Lexus to do anything better in the Lux market if they can't move the budget market where they currently reside. Two business partners of mine have the cars, and that's as close as I want to get to them. The Elantra owner picks out a new one every other year/little to no resale value. A car loses value every year, and a Hyundai-KIA is an accelerated loss. Now if Samsung were to build a car, that might get my attention.

*Besides, why build a car with the Audi grille and headlights...buy this G90 if you can't afford that A8L

http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/lat...icle-1.2760784
"Still, premium luxury-car buyers are a loyal lot and not easily swayed, as Hyundai discovered with fairly weak sales of its previous Equus sedan. As lovely, well crafted, up-to-date, and road-worthy as the G90 is, the Genesis flagship doesn’t raise the bar in the premium segment."

CRowe14

Hey, with the way technology/money moves and deals can/may have the potential to be struck, hey! You never know...

SW17LS

I think Hyundai/Kia has moved the mainstream/budget market...mainstream cars have gotten a lot more upscale, and Hyundai & Kia were the ones who started that trend.

CRowe14

Agreed. Taking a look at the more secular brands such as Chevrolet and Ford, they have made significant aesthetic strides regarding the exterior and interior appearance of their vehicles. Even the aforementioned Mazda, specifically the new CX9. I haven't driven one but sitting in one and looking around, the fit and finish had a surprisingly luxury feel.
However, I do find it humorous in the Chevy commercials when they have 3 "unpaid" civilians to look at un-badged Malibu's and Traverse's and the people liken the interior of Chevy products to that of a BMW or Lexus. That is comical.

AL13NV8D3R

Whatever it takes to get the sheep into dealer lots. Chevy must think people are that dumb or blind. LoL.

1WILLY1

iTrader: (9)

You seem to be one of the few who "gets it"

Its not all about "the badge" , but what does the badge stand for.

Hyundai is a nothing brand, that is trying to build itself up in recent years, and I think they've done a hell of a good job with that , but not enough to create any sort of presence or prestige.

They are creating good quality , decent cars ( im taking peoples word on it) , but to go from a top model like the LS to a Hyundai shows a real lack of knowledge and passion in my opinion.

jainla

Knowledge and passion for what exactly?

I haven't seen the new G90 so I can only go by what's in reviews and publications. It seems like a nice car. The stats are competitive. The only thing I can't discern from the information I have is will it be as reliable, bulletproof and as enjoyable to drive in 16 years as my 16 year old LS430? I don't know (honestly I can't even say that about my other, newer LS). I hope Genesis makes a reliable car their consumers love, but I'm not sure anybody can definitively speak to that right now. Time will tell.

But, were I in the market for a new car I'm not sure why I would consider one.

As you'll remember Toyota was a marginal brand in the mid 1980s. The cars were considered reliable; but it did not have the brand equity that it enjoys today. People didn't take it seriously. So Toyota knew that in order to enter the luxury market they needed an brand offering that was distinct and entirely separate from the mother company; in addition to a great product.

When Lexus launched it had a winning formula composed of a truly superior product that cleared every benchmark in its segment, combined with a buying and ownership experience that led the industry. Value was only a part of the equation, and honestly not the most important as LS sales remained strong even as the price of the quickly outstripped inflation in the mid 90's. Even the LS430, which topped out at nearly twice the orignal LS400's cost was a strong seller.

The G90, while seemingly a nice car in many respects, doesn't really seem to break any new ground. Even Mercedes Benz, the established worldwide sales leader in the segment for almost 40 years, stuffs everything it possibly can into each new S Class design (sometimes to the determent of their quality rankings). You could hold the LS400 of it's day (and the current LS460) against the 7 series and S class of the time and find things they didn't offer; be it features or quality or styling. I don't see a single defining feature of the G90 to distinguish it from the 7, S or A8. Or even the comparatively ancient (but still very nice) current LS design. Those who have seen the car please articulate exactly what these seem to be; because nobody in the press has done so to my knowledge. The only advantage I can see right now is price; and this may be a false economy as resale values for the whole Genesis line are a big question mark right now.

The Genesis brand itself seems relatively anonymous right now. I'm not sure what it stands for or why I would be excited to own one.

The G90 seems like a big nice car at a great price; that's their value proposition. That can be a winning business formula (just ask Ford how much they made on the Lincoln Town Car over it's lifespan). And for some people that's the deciding factor. That's fine. We are each entitled to our own opinion; and in mine I prefer a car with a different value proposition. One that has tried to pull the industry forward; even if that progress has been surpassed by the time I own it. its what makes it worth it for me, and that's fine too.

But grandstanding one's own opinion as superior to another's isn't effective, nor does it constitute (or condone) righteousness. Just look at our current presidential election and you'll see where that leads.

Relax people. It's just a car.

superdenso

Just going to address a facet of "passion" and "just a car".
I'm going to post the names of four cars from the 80's that are revered to today:

Corolla
Celica
Supra (Especially the turbo; it gave the corvette a fit because it could match it's 0 to 60 time with a v6)
Camry
Cressida (rear wheel drive luxury car)
4Runner
Land Cruiser (high end SUV)

The passion to create fine pieces that their customers will enjoy is evident in these pieces. Honda, Nissan, and Toyota marketed reliability as the most important luxury feature you can buy. There is not one car that Hyundai-KIA made from 1986 that I would drive today. In can be said Americans have a love affair with cars. We have them, nearly endless places to take them, and the basic freedoms to do so. So what may be considered "just a car" is a product that allows us to physically express a dimension of what makes us American or "free".

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/1987-toyota-supra-turbo-road-test-review
http://fortune.com/2013/07/03/americas-love-affair-with-its-cars-is-far-from-over/

CRowe14

Very interesting take, and a way of thinking that I cant say I ever considered. Or perhaps just never considered consciously in such a literal sense.
Great food for thought here.

2v1g

I think S class sells more than LS is because Mercedes still has more prestige than Lexus. Even in Japan, all Yakuza bosses sit in S class.

Even if the new G90 is as good as the latest generation of LS, few people will buy it. For now, Genesis brand has little prestige. As good as LS is not good enough for G90. To entice buyers, they need to be either much better in performance or much lower in price($4000 is not enough)

The front looks of the G90 totally turn me off and usually car makers won’t change the looks for at least several years.

SW17LS

Its easy to look back on these models from the 80s and say they've become "iconic" and "revered" today. Personally, I have a hard time seeing models they don't make any more like the Cressida, or Celica as being those things (Supra is different), but I digress. The point is...were those products "iconic" and "revered" in 1989 when Lexus was introduced? There isn't a Hyundai/Kia from 1986 I would drive either (none from Toyota either by the way), but the question is, what will that look like 30 years from now? 30 years from now will the "Sonata" be an American staple? Will the "Santa Fe" be an American staple? Thats the question.

No doubt Toyota and Lexus are much further along in terms of brand quality than Hyundai and Genesis...but that doesn't mean that Hyundai and Genesis will not eventually get there.

Lots of people took a chance on Lexus and the LS400 in 1989...people called them silly and said they "lacked passion" and "lacked knowledge" too...and now today we sit here on a Lexus forum and look down our noses at Genesis when people did exactly the same thing to the early Lexus adopters in 1989...and still do. Go to an MB or BMW forum and see what they think about Lexus and Lexus owners....they think the brand is worthless and the cars are crap. A member in this thread who sees fit to build Lexus and the LS up here because its contrary runs it down every other opportunity they have.

I think this is pretty unfair. Not saying I'm going to the G90, I'm just saying that its an excellent car and a great value, and had it been around when I bought my LS I very seriously may have chosen it. I think I've demonstrated on here that I have a deep knowledge about Lexus, cars and the car industry in general. Passion? I spend several hours a day posting on a Lexus forum, over the past 10 years I have spent nearly $200,000 on Lexus vehicles. Yet, I lack passion? What have you done or spent that demonstrates you have more passion than I do? LOL. I dust my Lexus off every night...I have passion thank you very much.

If all you cared about was brand, then a Lexus isn't the right car for you in the first place.

Just to be clear, the G90 is not $4,000 cheaper than a comparable LS...its $20,000 cheaper. $20,000 is a lot of money, thats 22% cheaper.

The G90 is not going to be a huge sales car, they don't have the dealer network or availability for that, but it is an excellent car and anybody looking for a car in this segment really should drive one.

2v1g

I think few people want to spend their own money to help Genesis to build their prestige. They will buy it when Genesis has the prestige already.

I think they have to offer a deal that is too good to resist like one third of price cheaper than LS. $4000 cheaper is not enough.

2v1g

Maybe you need to pay extra on LS for some G90 standard feature, but The base price is $4000 difference.

SW17LS

People said the same thing about Lexus lol

Read very carefully: ITS $20,000 CHEAPER. Not $4,000 cheaper. 22% cheaper.

The base LS460 is not comparable to the G90, the G90 is LWB only, there are no options, only engine. a $72k AWD G90 is optioned like a $92k LS460. My LS460 is lightly optioned and SWB, it was $80, a loaded G90 V8 is $8,000 less and 5 inches longer with MUCH more equipment.