shinbob

I think this is a key point that some are not getting. In the 80's, Toyota (and others) were only 20-30 years removed from when they were universally referred to as "J*p Crap". They got progressively better, and surely but slowly improved their products to the point where they could start legitimately producing world-class cars, which led to the Lexus LS400 that started it all for us here.

We are now 20-30 years from the Hyundai Excel era (which were indeed supremely crappy cars), but similarly, Hyundai has been steadily improving their cars, and now want to challenge Lexus at their own game. But we here are being exactly as dismissive as the BMW/MB fans were in 1990.

This has all happened before, and it will happen again. Perhaps in another 30 years it will be some Chinese automaker that will challenge the throne (assuming anybody still drives cars by then), and the Hyundai/Genesis fans of the day will look down their noses at those folks.

roadfrog

That commercial makes me laugh every time I see it. They clearly never sat in or been anywhere near a BMW. Credibility shot to hell.

They still do today. Anytime you read a review on Car & Driver, R&T, etc they always make those sorts of comments. Something to the effect of, ..."a car you don't mind being driven in, but not one you really want to drive." And that sort of thing.

You must have been reading different reviews than I. I recall in every test that the Lexus came in last place for the reasons I posted above. Mainly, handling, vague steering, braking, handling, etc.

comotiger

Here's another comparison of similarly equipped G90 and LS460L

Fully loaded 2017 G90 Ultimate AWD $72,200
2017G90.pdf


Fully loaded 2017 LS 460L AWD $101,890
2017LS.pdf

superdenso

Acura and Lexus in the late 80's: I don't know the people that said Acura and Lexus were Jap-crap. Because I would ask them in 1989 to specify. Because a 528 in the 80's was borderline reliable, but the Legend was "other-worldly". Honda and Toyota shuttered Detroit. If you could afford a Olds Ninety Eight, but the Legend is priced the same...what do you do? Reliability of Japan and the Cadillac Deville is 3 seconds slower and can't come near the 140mph or high speed handling. The 89' Legend was at 25mpg and easy to repair. There is a formula for special cars.

Some may not care for Celicas and Civics, but SEMA was built on them. Aftermarket upgrades were built on these cars. So it doesn't matter who likes them. There are a lot of dollar that keeps Supras and Cressidas unavailable. Further, if Hyundai-Kia builds an affordable supercar that sends Ferrari and Lamborghini back to the drawing board then I'll read about them. Until then, not in the least bit interested.

Oliver Enterprises

Lots of experience with the design, manufacturing and use of their products. Here and overseas. I can say the above is not the case. Compared to what I saw in the Toyota plant being built in 2004, to what was being built in the Hyundai & Kia plants in 2011, H-K was building junk. I was in a time capsule in the Hyundai-Kia plant. I was years behind the production & quality level of where the Toyota plant was in 1999, when I left the Hyundai-Kia plant in 2011. I've never been in a European or domestic American auto plant, my guess is, it could be an even scarier situation there versus the H-K plants.

Oliver Enterprises

The Supra was NOT a V6. It was an Inline 6.

And I was, am and always will be in LOVE with my 1984 Toyota Celica GT coupe. It is in a heap somewhere in Tennessee, from when I T-Boned a car that pulled out in front of me.

Front - to - rear inline 4 cylinder, manual transmission, rear wheel drive. Much like the Scion FRS today (with manual transmission available and rear wheel drive). Except the FRS uses the Boxer engine (I think it's called) from Subaru. That engine is a horizontally opposed 4 cylinder. I may get an FRS just to relive my youth...

SW17LS

Like I said before, I drive the product not the manufacturing process of the product. I've owned many Toyota/Lexus vehicles, and I now own a Hyundai/Kia vehicle. My Hyundai/Kia vehicle is built as well or better than any Toyota/Lexus product I've owned built in the last 10 years.

shinbob

Late 80's? Of course the sentiment had changed by then. But just 20 years prior, in the 60's and early 70's, Japanese cars were the source of major derision. It took the oil embargo for people to start giving them a chance. That, plus the rapid decline in the build quality of US-made cars that peaked in the 70's/80's. Anyone drive a K-car or a Vega? Holy cow, they were horrible cars, but they helped "legitimize" Japanese car makers to mainstream American drivers.

Back to the original subject, it is the rapidly increasing price point of the LS that might cause me to consider a G90. If the new LS is indeed in the $90K range, then the G90 suddenly becomes a lot more appealing. Which is exactly the thought process that lot of folks went through in 1989/1990 with the LS400.

superdenso

Thanks for the edit...and it's just the segway to discuss the turbo six in the mid 90's Supra that sells for premium dollars today, and it wasn't even a lexus model. Someone please post the Honda Toyota product that was the definitive model of Jap crap. I think the refferal was to the light weight 4cyl setup and the non-crap was supposed to be the 4,000 lbs american cars that would run for 100k and quit.

Rhambler

I read a trade journal article on Samsung industries and Korea's conglamorates in general. It was very interesting and efficiency was high up, but it derided their corporate culture.

They are very heiarchal, and the rank-and-file employees don't question authority or are given room to innovate. The higher ups may decide something and will push it through even if it isn't feasible or just wrong. It allows obvious production problems to perpetuate. I think Samsung's recent issues bring these to light and this type of culture is ubiquitous over there.

I'm not saying their car industry is bad, but it gave an interesting perspective on their corporate culture in general.

2v1g

Same as the company culture in Japan

Rhambler

I'll have to scan the article when I get back to the office as it was in a print magazine, but it did compare it to early Japanese corporate culture. They pointed out some noted differences (and similarities), in particular Japan's effort to move away from the rigid heiarchy in 80s and 90s and allow employees to stop production and encourage employees to give open feedback.

It's not well documented, and definitely falls outside of stereotypes, but removing the rigidity and militaristic hierarchy was one aspect that the Japanese actually copied us. Flatter organizations.

In any case, it was an interesting in depth article and centered mainly in their phone debacle, but painted a broad picture. I thought if this thread when I read it.

Doublebase

I absolutely love the way the new Hyundai Genesis looks, and I would consider buying one, but I'd do that knowing there's a very real chance that long term the reliability and the materials wouldn't hold up. There's a reason why they're cheaper in price, and there's a reason why they depreciate quickly. I'd say it's quality of materials, but that's ok because I think they've improved to the point where they make solid cars...maybe not "legendary"...but solid. Keep in mind that most of us won't be keeping these cars 15 years or 400,000 miles anyway. But I will tell you that I've seen many Sonatas that are ten years old that look like they are a million years old...with door handles falling off, ***** worn away to nothing, rust everywhere, oil leaking all over the place, seats ripped to shreds...but that's true of a lot of cars anyway. I have a fried that only buys high end Hyundai's...he's owned a loaded Sonata and a loaded Azera. The Sonata was sold because his dash and radio would just shut down...he grew tired if it. The Azera is not holding up well on the inside...it looks like Freddy Crouger has been driving it, the steering wheel leather is destroyed...the thing has so many creaks and rattles you'd think it's haunted. And it's terrible in the snow - the weight distribution is way off for winter driving in the Azera and Sonata - ask anyone, probably the worst front wheel drive car for the snow. But still I'd call these cars pretty damn good. I'd commute in a loaded Sonata if I had to...and probably average 35 mpg with minimal problems (and I can live with interiors falling apart at that price range).

Gbp

i loved my 1984 Clica GT-S liftback. It looked awesome, especially with its silver-blue two-tone. Not quite as cool-looking as the Supra that year, but still very nice. It was fun to drive and reliable. The Recaro-style front seats looked sharp and were comfortable. The graphic equalizer that came with the stereo was useful.

I also love my LS460, but for entirely different reasons. It's my first luxury car and exudes comfort and quality. I like its understated, yet streamlined appearance. I'd say that it's generally been reliable over the 1.5 years I've iwned the car, considering the number of things that could go wrong with it, yet when the CPO warranty expires, I'm not sure if I will keep the car. IOW, the CPO warranty has probably more than justified its effect in the price of the car.

i admit that part of my enjoyment of owning the car us the Lexus brand itself, especially as expressed with the LS460/LS600h. I don't see that many of those models on the road. That status and exclusivity is IMO lacking or will be lacking with the Genesis G90. It's purely subjective. Perhaps I'll feel differently when I eventually replace the LS460, although I doubt I will purchase a LWB vehicle.

SW17LS

Its all a question of value. Everybody has a price that they feel is reasonable to spend for a product with a certain set of characteristics. The LS in itself is a value proposition. If money was no consideration for me, I would have an S550 or a 750, those cars are more impressive IMHO, but optioned right they're $100k+ and lease for $1,300-$1,500. So happens that for me, about what I spent for this LS460 ($80,000 purchase price, ~ $1,000/mo lease payment) is the limit of what I really want to pay for a car, in reality I'd like to spend less next time. What I like is a big flagship car, I've had that and gone to cheaper different options in the ES and GS, and now being back in the LS its really clear to me that this is the sort of sedan that I want to drive, and unless I make a move to an SUV or something, which I may, I don't want to go back to a smaller, different sort of sedan.

Thats why the G90 interests me, because its the sort of car that I want to drive, but the price is incredibly appealing. Unlike something like the Cadillac CT6 which I've also driven and liked, theres no compromise in the interior or driving refinement compared to the LS. I like the style of the CT6 and the price point of the car I optioned out ($66k), but sitting in it and driving it I definitely would feel like I downgraded out of the LS. I wouldn't feel that way about the G90.

Flagship cars are getting a lot more expensive than they used to be, and the lease programs aren't as good as they used to be either as they become less and less volume sellers which dramatically increases the cost of acquiring one. The next LS is going to be solidly a $90k proposition I'm sure...