Unintended acceleration
11-01-16, 05:24 PM
#16
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Your LS460 been to the dealer at all since 2011? If so it has a brake override too. It was an ECU refresh that Toyota/Lexus did to ALL models. They did it to every vehicle that they came contact with. My 2010 ES got the refresh and the gas pedal replaced when it was in for an oil change, they didn't even inform me.
Regardless, even so if you stand on the brakes and the gas, the car will stop. The accelerator cannot overcome the power of the brakes. Think about it, the force required to stop a 5,000lb car from 80MPH in 120 feet is huge...The force required to do that is much greater than the force to move that vehicle from a stop.
Everybody always swears they didn't do that, but in reality they did and just didn't realize it. It happens.
Regardless, even so if you stand on the brakes and the gas, the car will stop. The accelerator cannot overcome the power of the brakes. Think about it, the force required to stop a 5,000lb car from 80MPH in 120 feet is huge...The force required to do that is much greater than the force to move that vehicle from a stop.
Everybody always swears they didn't do that, but in reality they did and just didn't realize it. It happens.
Lexus is "leading me to believe" that there is no ECU refresh available for my LS 2008 - per their engineers. Are you aware of any 2008 LS460's being refreshed? I feel like they are giving me the run around. I'm asking that they state this in writing, as it seems hard to believe there is no such refresh. Any ideas?
11-01-16, 06:53 PM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by lexier
SW15LS
Lexus is "leading me to believe" that there is no ECU refresh available for my LS 2008 - per their engineers. Are you aware of any 2008 LS460's being refreshed? I feel like they are giving me the run around. I'm asking that they state this in writing, as it seems hard to believe there is no such refresh. Any ideas?
Lexus is "leading me to believe" that there is no ECU refresh available for my LS 2008 - per their engineers. Are you aware of any 2008 LS460's being refreshed? I feel like they are giving me the run around. I'm asking that they state this in writing, as it seems hard to believe there is no such refresh. Any ideas?
Bottom line is though, it doesn't matter. If you put your foot on the brake it will stop the car whether the throttle is also wide open or not.
11-23-16, 03:34 PM
#18
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Well I finally heard back from Lexus Corporate in regards to being able to upgrade my 2008 with a brake over ride system. Here is their response:
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to address your concern regarding your 2008 Lexus LS460. We understand that you have inquired about the installation of a brake override system on your vehicle.
As discussed, your vehicle was not equipped with a brake override system at the time it was manufactured. While Lexus has retrofitted some vehicles not originally equipped with brake override, there are feasibility and equipment issues limiting the retrofitting of the brake override on all past models. Because of the required design of some features (such as anti-lock brake system limitations), retrofitting is not possible. Unfortunately, the 2008 Lexus LS460 is not equipped with the necessary design features which would allow retrofitting with a brake override system.
Any additional thoughts from anyone?
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to address your concern regarding your 2008 Lexus LS460. We understand that you have inquired about the installation of a brake override system on your vehicle.
As discussed, your vehicle was not equipped with a brake override system at the time it was manufactured. While Lexus has retrofitted some vehicles not originally equipped with brake override, there are feasibility and equipment issues limiting the retrofitting of the brake override on all past models. Because of the required design of some features (such as anti-lock brake system limitations), retrofitting is not possible. Unfortunately, the 2008 Lexus LS460 is not equipped with the necessary design features which would allow retrofitting with a brake override system.
Any additional thoughts from anyone?
11-23-16, 09:07 PM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
Seems pretty cut and dried to me. Remember, you cannot override the brakes by flooring the accelerator. Really nothing to worry about.
11-24-16, 08:42 AM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
I think I can feel the same thing in my Solara V6, but it feels like the transmission is downshifting at the time - which increases the torque multiplication.
After examining 10,000 reports of "unintended acceleration", the results are in.
Actual mechanical problem 1%
Drunk male driver 9%
Senile male driver 13%
Female driver 77%
After examining 10,000 reports of "unintended acceleration", the results are in.
Actual mechanical problem 1%
Drunk male driver 9%
Senile male driver 13%
Female driver 77%
Ok.....probably accurate.
11-24-16, 12:04 PM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
I agree (at the risk of political incorrectness). Add in certain ethnic groups and the issue is compounded. Even Modern Family spoofed an Asian female driver who said, "oh so just because I'm Asian, I cant drive properly?" She then proceeds to back out of the driveway and runs over the neighbor's garbage cans and drives away. LOL.
08-17-17, 07:04 AM
#22
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It appears that some people will not recognize that the LS460, mine a 2013, has some quirckey deceleration characteristics, at least that I have experience. When braking to a stop, ie red light, the car seems to want to keep going, like the engine rpm increase! I had experience 7-8 unintended accelerationsins in the first four months since owing the car (in service date 12/16/16), where I literally had to "stand on the brake". After two trips to the dealer where nothing was found to be wrong, I contacted Lexus directly and filed a complaint. A factory tech appointment was scheduled and again nothing was found! However, it is now over 90 days and I have not experience any unintended acceleration. They told me on one occasion that the transmission was adaptive so they reset it to factory settings and during the last inspection by the factory tech the transmission was again rest!!
So far so good. I drive with love for the car, but some caution for unwanted accelerations. As time goes on, I gain more reassurance that the unwanted acceleration will not happen again.
So far so good. I drive with love for the car, but some caution for unwanted accelerations. As time goes on, I gain more reassurance that the unwanted acceleration will not happen again.
08-17-17, 07:44 AM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
When braking to a stop, ie red light, the car seems to want to keep going, like the engine rpm increase! I had experience 7-8 unintended accelerationsins in the first four months since owing the car (in service date 12/16/16), where I literally had to "stand on the brake". After two trips to the dealer where nothing was found to be wrong, I contacted Lexus directly and filed a complaint. A factory tech appointment was scheduled and again nothing was found! However, it is now over 90 days and I have not experience any unintended acceleration. They told me on one occasion that the transmission was adaptive so they reset it to factory settings and during the last inspection by the factory tech the transmission was again rest!!
08-17-17, 08:47 AM
#24
Pole Position
Anyone who has 45 minutes should listen to Malcolm Gladwell's podcast on the Toyota un-intended acceleration fiasco (part of his "Revisionist History" podcast series). Steve points out lots of valid points in this thread that are echoed in the podcast. Drivers continuously put their foot on the gas pedal instead of the brake and then blame it on the car (and manufacturer). What an expensive PR nightmare for Toyota, only to find out later that all of the data from the cars showed what was really happening...
The following users liked this post:
jmcraney (08-17-17)
08-17-17, 08:47 AM
#25
It appears that some people will not recognize that the LS460, mine a 2013, has some quirckey deceleration characteristics, at least that I have experience. When braking to a stop, ie red light, the car seems to want to keep going, like the engine rpm increase! I had experience 7-8 unintended accelerationsins in the first four months since owing the car (in service date 12/16/16), where I literally had to "stand on the brake". After two trips to the dealer where nothing was found to be wrong, I contacted Lexus directly and filed a complaint. A factory tech appointment was scheduled and again nothing was found! However, it is now over 90 days and I have not experience any unintended acceleration. They told me on one occasion that the transmission was adaptive so they reset it to factory settings and during the last inspection by the factory tech the transmission was again rest!!
So far so good. I drive with love for the car, but some caution for unwanted accelerations. As time goes on, I gain more reassurance that the unwanted acceleration will not happen again.
So far so good. I drive with love for the car, but some caution for unwanted accelerations. As time goes on, I gain more reassurance that the unwanted acceleration will not happen again.
08-17-17, 04:41 PM
#26
I've experienced the lurching when coming to a stop, and realized that it was due to my shoe position on the brake pedal - not sliding the toe over to the left far enough towards the center of the brake pedal. After a certain point in the brake pedal travel, if your toe is towards the right side of the pedal you will catch the left edge of the accelerator. Try it, and you will see that it is very possible to do this if you don't slide your foot over far enough when switching from gas to brake. Sometimes, doing an experiment and seeing exactly how something can happen will be enough to subconsciously prevent recurrence.
08-17-17, 11:15 PM
#27
Lead Lap
1986, Audi 5000, the original unintended acceleration car. Audi had a huge hit with that sports sedan. Then the tv show 60 minutes basically rigged a car to prove it accelerated by itself. Audi sales crashed in the US. Couple of years later Lexus and Infiniti came along and it took Audi years to recover sales. BTW this is why you must depress the brake to shift out of park first, didn't need to before. NHTSA did a study in the 80's and found misapplication of pedals was almost always the fault. In 1989 NHTSA exonerated Audi, but the damage was done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden...d_acceleration
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ation-debacle/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden...d_acceleration
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ation-debacle/
And good golly did it ruin resale value as well. While not a litigious person (have never sued anyone), folks who had their $40-$50,000 car worth about the same as a Civic after 5 years deserve restitution.
As for the 460 being susceptible to UA, I find that incredibly unlikely and stated above, most likely driver error.
08-18-17, 05:50 AM
#28
It appears that some people will not recognize that the LS460, mine a 2013, has some quirckey deceleration characteristics, at least that I have experience. When braking to a stop, ie red light, the car seems to want to keep going, like the engine rpm increase! I had experience 7-8 unintended accelerationsins in the first four months since owing the car (in service date 12/16/16), where I literally had to "stand on the brake". After two trips to the dealer where nothing was found to be wrong, I contacted Lexus directly and filed a complaint. A factory tech appointment was scheduled and again nothing was found! However, it is now over 90 days and I have not experience any unintended acceleration. They told me on one occasion that the transmission was adaptive so they reset it to factory settings and during the last inspection by the factory tech the transmission was again rest!!
So far so good. I drive with love for the car, but some caution for unwanted accelerations. As time goes on, I gain more reassurance that the unwanted acceleration will not happen again.
So far so good. I drive with love for the car, but some caution for unwanted accelerations. As time goes on, I gain more reassurance that the unwanted acceleration will not happen again.
Thank you for sharing your concerns about your car's "unintended acceleration" problem.
On 2-20-17 you made an off-subject post about what seems to be this same problem in Post #54 of the thread that is titled "Hold / Emergency Brake - Ridiculous!!." https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...idiculous.html
No problem with the off subject post. It is sort of hard for newcomers to understand how to get started in this forum. Our members, for the most part, are understanding and friendly and even off-subject posts get courteous responses. The reason I am pointing this out is so readers who are interested in "unintended acceleration" can see your original post, and my response.
Here's your post from 2-20-17:
With or without this feature engaged, I have now experienced four unwanted accelerations. Each occurrence has happed as the car was braking to a stop for a traffic signal and just about at zero mph, the car surged. On one occurrence, I had to literally stand on the brake and put the car in neutral. The car has not been to the dealer twice and no clue as to what is happening. There were no codes to explain why!!
This is a CPO with 10K miles. The last attempt was to reset the transmission, which was explained to me so that he "intelligent" transmission could learn my driving habits. Three day so far without incident.
Any ideas anyone?
This is a CPO with 10K miles. The last attempt was to reset the transmission, which was explained to me so that he "intelligent" transmission could learn my driving habits. Three day so far without incident.
Any ideas anyone?
I have followed this forum, and several other LS460 Internet forums closely for about 10 years. I also monitor the Lexus LS460 complaints on the NHTSA SaferCar.gov site. Reports of unintended acceleration relating to LS 460s are very rare and there seems to be no verification details.
Personally experiencing one of these events usually causes a complete loss of confidence in the car, and I can understand that. But, since reports like this are rare and verification is even rarer, we have to also consider causes other than defects with the car.
I suggest that you do a visual examination of the brake pedal and accelerator pedal area and the driver's foot-well area. You should check to ensure that the floor mat is not somehow contributing to this. Check to ensure that there isn't some sort of foreign object that can roll around and contribute to this. Be sure to look under the driver's seat for something that can roll out.
While we have trouble realizing or admitting to pedal-application errors, that has to be considered too. If you are large person then you have to consider if you are applying the brake pedal in such a way that your large foot might span the gap between the brake pedal and accelerator. It might be a good idea to look or have someone else look at how you are positioning your feet on the pedals. Foot neuropathy is a condition that causes numbness in the feet and is common in diabetics and seniors and may account for some pedal-application errors - that needs to be considered too.
Bringing this to the attention of your Lexus dealer is definitely the correct thing to do. I don't think this has anything to do with the "intelligent transmission." We have seen reports in this forum, crediting "resetting" the transmission with fixing lots of things. I think that is "snake oil."
Personally experiencing one of these events usually causes a complete loss of confidence in the car, and I can understand that. But, since reports like this are rare and verification is even rarer, we have to also consider causes other than defects with the car.
I suggest that you do a visual examination of the brake pedal and accelerator pedal area and the driver's foot-well area. You should check to ensure that the floor mat is not somehow contributing to this. Check to ensure that there isn't some sort of foreign object that can roll around and contribute to this. Be sure to look under the driver's seat for something that can roll out.
While we have trouble realizing or admitting to pedal-application errors, that has to be considered too. If you are large person then you have to consider if you are applying the brake pedal in such a way that your large foot might span the gap between the brake pedal and accelerator. It might be a good idea to look or have someone else look at how you are positioning your feet on the pedals. Foot neuropathy is a condition that causes numbness in the feet and is common in diabetics and seniors and may account for some pedal-application errors - that needs to be considered too.
Bringing this to the attention of your Lexus dealer is definitely the correct thing to do. I don't think this has anything to do with the "intelligent transmission." We have seen reports in this forum, crediting "resetting" the transmission with fixing lots of things. I think that is "snake oil."
Last edited by jmcraney; 08-19-17 at 06:07 AM. Reason: corrected typos
08-27-17, 09:31 AM
#29
Lexus Test Driver
FWIW, I'm a die-hard gearhead, and I've never bought the whole "unintended acceleration" thing.
I've experienced unexpected acceleration only a few times in my now 35 years of vehicle ownership and driving.
The first was a broken return spring on carburetor linkage. Now THAT was an experience at age 16!
Similar to the above, I was driving a late 80s Corvette and decided to punch it in 1st gear. The accelerator pedal stuck at the floor because of the mat, but jabbing at it with my foot had it free within 1/3 of a second, or so. Still, was more than a bit intense. I was about 19 years old at the time, maybe 20.
With my LS, I've found my workboots, because they're wider, they _very_ occasionally just barely catch the accelerator when I'm on the brake. With other shoes, it never happens.
I'm aware of it, and it never surprised me. You shouldn't really notice the downshift to 1st, in this vehicle because it's super-smooth and quite gentle.
OTOH, my '98 Grand Cherokee 5.9L with the 46RE transmission? Yeah, you're going to notice every single time it shifts into 1st (or any other gear) because the tech inside that housing is from the 60s. Seriously, it's effectively the venerable Torqueflite 727 with a tail bolted on for an overdrive 4th gear. I'm going to make this even harsher by putting tweaking the valve body and springs to it's even more like a sequential automatic.
I've experienced unexpected acceleration only a few times in my now 35 years of vehicle ownership and driving.
The first was a broken return spring on carburetor linkage. Now THAT was an experience at age 16!
Similar to the above, I was driving a late 80s Corvette and decided to punch it in 1st gear. The accelerator pedal stuck at the floor because of the mat, but jabbing at it with my foot had it free within 1/3 of a second, or so. Still, was more than a bit intense. I was about 19 years old at the time, maybe 20.
With my LS, I've found my workboots, because they're wider, they _very_ occasionally just barely catch the accelerator when I'm on the brake. With other shoes, it never happens.
I'm aware of it, and it never surprised me. You shouldn't really notice the downshift to 1st, in this vehicle because it's super-smooth and quite gentle.
OTOH, my '98 Grand Cherokee 5.9L with the 46RE transmission? Yeah, you're going to notice every single time it shifts into 1st (or any other gear) because the tech inside that housing is from the 60s. Seriously, it's effectively the venerable Torqueflite 727 with a tail bolted on for an overdrive 4th gear. I'm going to make this even harsher by putting tweaking the valve body and springs to it's even more like a sequential automatic.
03-15-18, 12:55 PM
#30
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After three unintended acceleration events, corporate had a "super tech" check the car at the dealer. And what did he find? Nothing wrong with the vehicle. All of this within a six month span.
After a seven month period of no events, I was parking the car in my garage and as I was coming to full stop, the car suddenly accelerated. Fortunately I stopped by putting car in neutral ! I am positive that my foot was not on both the brake and accelerator.
No one at Lexus has admitted to me that others have the same complaint, but there is something wrong with this all electronic car. I hope there is no serious accident caused by this phantom!
More owners with the problem should come forward and not think it is an isolated incident. I at first thought so, but continued events told me otherwise. Your not crazy or otherwise as the "dealer" will have you think!
All of you out there who believe it is operator error with have a change of mind when it happens to you.
After a seven month period of no events, I was parking the car in my garage and as I was coming to full stop, the car suddenly accelerated. Fortunately I stopped by putting car in neutral ! I am positive that my foot was not on both the brake and accelerator.
No one at Lexus has admitted to me that others have the same complaint, but there is something wrong with this all electronic car. I hope there is no serious accident caused by this phantom!
More owners with the problem should come forward and not think it is an isolated incident. I at first thought so, but continued events told me otherwise. Your not crazy or otherwise as the "dealer" will have you think!
All of you out there who believe it is operator error with have a change of mind when it happens to you.