LS comparison to A8
12-17-16, 06:52 AM
#31
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
I am excited to be test driving Friday, the 23rd. My son will be here over the holidays so we are going to make a family day of it . Pay back for the wife is an evening attending the Nut Cracker, so everyone is happy. Right now I am leaning towards an L-certified LS, subject to change. We are also driving a few Audi vehicles, as well - A7, A8. I would only buy a CPO Audi and probably sell or trade when warranty is up. I have never leased, so am somewhat gun shy about that. Thanks again for all the personal insight to all that have replied to my post. Merry Christmas
12-17-16, 10:08 AM
#32
Lexus Champion
Audi make some beautiful cars with great tech, but I would never buy one and keep it longer than the warranty. I've had a couple Audi in the past.
Ownership Experiemce:
I was not impressed by the ownership experience from Audi. The service department is not even close to being accommodating and nice compared to Lexus. Most Lexus dealers here have a huge fleet of Lexus loaners, so they are willing to give you one whenever you take your car in. Audi on the other hand only had about 10 total cars, and they never had enough for their customers. Unless you were spending big money on your service, they would only offer shuttle service. There was also a long line of customers every time I went in since they only had a few service advisors (3-4), so service visits always took almost an hour. Before I got rid of my Audi, my local dealer changed the layout of the service advisor desks. They make their customer stand at counter height desk for the service advisor, to speed up the process rather than hiring more advisors. Lexus service department tends to have many service advisors available (7-10) and you're usually out within 20-30 minutes. Repairs and services cost much more at Audi than Lexus too.
Reliability:
I had my A4 outside of warranty for a few years. As soon as it passes the 50K miles mark, everything starts to go wrong. Before my family finally got rid of the car around 120K miles, the whole A/C unit had to be changed, the car had significant oil consumption issues (Audi refused to cover anything even though there was a lawsuit because the car was outside warranty), engine started developing knocking, and the list goes on. Before you say the car was probably neglected, the car was maintained according to the service manual and most services were performed at the dealer. Maybe Audi has improved in the last few years, but I just won't keep an Audi long-term anymore. Lexus on the other hand, look how many old LS and ES are still on the road. I think it's a testament of the durability of Lexus. Like others have mentioned, look at the first page of each forum and you will see Audi first pages filled with problems and Lexus first pages filled with questions about features and pics of cars (maybe a few problems here and there).
Quick note about the A8, the tech is a little outdated compared to the new tech (virtual cockpit and revised MMI) Audi offers in some 2017 models. It is due for an update very soon...but so is the LS.
Ownership Experiemce:
I was not impressed by the ownership experience from Audi. The service department is not even close to being accommodating and nice compared to Lexus. Most Lexus dealers here have a huge fleet of Lexus loaners, so they are willing to give you one whenever you take your car in. Audi on the other hand only had about 10 total cars, and they never had enough for their customers. Unless you were spending big money on your service, they would only offer shuttle service. There was also a long line of customers every time I went in since they only had a few service advisors (3-4), so service visits always took almost an hour. Before I got rid of my Audi, my local dealer changed the layout of the service advisor desks. They make their customer stand at counter height desk for the service advisor, to speed up the process rather than hiring more advisors. Lexus service department tends to have many service advisors available (7-10) and you're usually out within 20-30 minutes. Repairs and services cost much more at Audi than Lexus too.
Reliability:
I had my A4 outside of warranty for a few years. As soon as it passes the 50K miles mark, everything starts to go wrong. Before my family finally got rid of the car around 120K miles, the whole A/C unit had to be changed, the car had significant oil consumption issues (Audi refused to cover anything even though there was a lawsuit because the car was outside warranty), engine started developing knocking, and the list goes on. Before you say the car was probably neglected, the car was maintained according to the service manual and most services were performed at the dealer. Maybe Audi has improved in the last few years, but I just won't keep an Audi long-term anymore. Lexus on the other hand, look how many old LS and ES are still on the road. I think it's a testament of the durability of Lexus. Like others have mentioned, look at the first page of each forum and you will see Audi first pages filled with problems and Lexus first pages filled with questions about features and pics of cars (maybe a few problems here and there).
Quick note about the A8, the tech is a little outdated compared to the new tech (virtual cockpit and revised MMI) Audi offers in some 2017 models. It is due for an update very soon...but so is the LS.
12-18-16, 10:57 AM
#33
Lead Lap
I am not sure about Audi, but BMW's 15,000 mile oil change intervals (or when the sensor decides the oil is needing change) are patently absurd. Hard not to believe that this is a direct result of BMW paying for maintenance. My friends who actually purchased their BMW's to keep (seemingly .00001% as something like 75% of BMW's are leased) get their oil changed at around 6000 miles.
Especially with most every German and almost all other countries have gone to turbocharging, this puts far greater stress on the oil in the form of heat. I knew I found my 460 when I found out the previous owner went full synthetic every 5000 miles which is exactly how I did it with my LX and 430.
The A8 is a beautiful car. No doubt about it and I personally like the reddish illumination in BMW's and at least the Audi's I have driven. That said, the chances of higher than average visits to the dealership is there.
And as this is going to be a CPO, I would be that much more careful. While the 150 billion point inspections car manufacturers bandy about, many problem children slip through the cracks and often it feels the biggest difference is that they all seem to have brand new tires.
If an A8, I would look for one with an unassailable service history and few if any unscheduled visits. You can add an Audi warranty to those A8's that are still under warranty from what I remember so you well could end up saving thousands of dollars and having similar if not identical warranty coverage if not paying the "CPO Tax"
If it was me, a great deal of the decision would rest on how long you intend to keep the car. Once many German cars hit 100,000 miles and or the extended warranty expires (usually then) depreciation becomes fierce.
I gave serious thought to an E90 BMW 3 Series 6 Speed X Drive Coupe and spend more than than I care to admit looking at CarFax reports. Beyond the 15,000 mile oil changes, there were always euphemistic items like "random light is going off" or somesuch.
Especially with most every German and almost all other countries have gone to turbocharging, this puts far greater stress on the oil in the form of heat. I knew I found my 460 when I found out the previous owner went full synthetic every 5000 miles which is exactly how I did it with my LX and 430.
The A8 is a beautiful car. No doubt about it and I personally like the reddish illumination in BMW's and at least the Audi's I have driven. That said, the chances of higher than average visits to the dealership is there.
And as this is going to be a CPO, I would be that much more careful. While the 150 billion point inspections car manufacturers bandy about, many problem children slip through the cracks and often it feels the biggest difference is that they all seem to have brand new tires.
If an A8, I would look for one with an unassailable service history and few if any unscheduled visits. You can add an Audi warranty to those A8's that are still under warranty from what I remember so you well could end up saving thousands of dollars and having similar if not identical warranty coverage if not paying the "CPO Tax"
If it was me, a great deal of the decision would rest on how long you intend to keep the car. Once many German cars hit 100,000 miles and or the extended warranty expires (usually then) depreciation becomes fierce.
I gave serious thought to an E90 BMW 3 Series 6 Speed X Drive Coupe and spend more than than I care to admit looking at CarFax reports. Beyond the 15,000 mile oil changes, there were always euphemistic items like "random light is going off" or somesuch.
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Hummel (12-18-16)
12-18-16, 03:29 PM
#34
He finally realized he preferred driving his Ford F-250. He's not a big car guy, so he quit buying sedans. He still has a customized Sprinter that he uses as a family hauler.
12-18-16, 04:30 PM
#35
Lead Lap
I know a guy in VA who would buy CPO Mercedes S600s and drive them to exactly 100,000 miles. He would just drive to the dealer and trade it in for the next one. He could well afford to fix the cars if something went wrong, but just didn't want to have to deal with it.
He finally realized he preferred driving his Ford F-250. He's not a big car guy, so he quit buying sedans. He still has a customized Sprinter that he uses as a family hauler.
He finally realized he preferred driving his Ford F-250. He's not a big car guy, so he quit buying sedans. He still has a customized Sprinter that he uses as a family hauler.
My last thoughts on trucks are about Ford's Ecoboost lineup. While undeniably impressive just how quick they truly are (the test numbers for the 2017 Raptor are off the charts), I really have reservations about forced induction, Beyond the added heat is that typically around 100,000 miles, there is a very realistic possibility of needing to replace the turbos. This is why I usually advocate for friends who ask my advice about it to go with the Coyote V8 also offered that originally saw service in the Mustang.
Due to CAFE standards, I fear it and the GT350 flat plane V8 are going to be Ford's last high tech V8's. The ironic thing is that turbocharged vehicles usually get abysmal mileage when the turbos are spooled up. It is just when they do the testing cycle at relatively low RPM/speeds the turbos are not really in the picture.
12-19-16, 10:06 AM
#36
Audi make some beautiful cars with great tech, but I would never buy one and keep it longer than the warranty. I've had a couple Audi in the past.
Ownership Experiemce:
I was not impressed by the ownership experience from Audi. The service department is not even close to being accommodating and nice compared to Lexus. Most Lexus dealers here have a huge fleet of Lexus loaners, so they are willing to give you one whenever you take your car in. Audi on the other hand only had about 10 total cars, and they never had enough for their customers. Unless you were spending big money on your service, they would only offer shuttle service. There was also a long line of customers every time I went in since they only had a few service advisors (3-4), so service visits always took almost an hour. Before I got rid of my Audi, my local dealer changed the layout of the service advisor desks. They make their customer stand at counter height desk for the service advisor, to speed up the process rather than hiring more advisors. Lexus service department tends to have many service advisors available (7-10) and you're usually out within 20-30 minutes. Repairs and services cost much more at Audi than Lexus too.
Reliability:
I had my A4 outside of warranty for a few years. As soon as it passes the 50K miles mark, everything starts to go wrong. Before my family finally got rid of the car around 120K miles, the whole A/C unit had to be changed, the car had significant oil consumption issues (Audi refused to cover anything even though there was a lawsuit because the car was outside warranty), engine started developing knocking, and the list goes on. Before you say the car was probably neglected, the car was maintained according to the service manual and most services were performed at the dealer. Maybe Audi has improved in the last few years, but I just won't keep an Audi long-term anymore. Lexus on the other hand, look how many old LS and ES are still on the road. I think it's a testament of the durability of Lexus. Like others have mentioned, look at the first page of each forum and you will see Audi first pages filled with problems and Lexus first pages filled with questions about features and pics of cars (maybe a few problems here and there).
Quick note about the A8, the tech is a little outdated compared to the new tech (virtual cockpit and revised MMI) Audi offers in some 2017 models. It is due for an update very soon...but so is the LS.
Ownership Experiemce:
I was not impressed by the ownership experience from Audi. The service department is not even close to being accommodating and nice compared to Lexus. Most Lexus dealers here have a huge fleet of Lexus loaners, so they are willing to give you one whenever you take your car in. Audi on the other hand only had about 10 total cars, and they never had enough for their customers. Unless you were spending big money on your service, they would only offer shuttle service. There was also a long line of customers every time I went in since they only had a few service advisors (3-4), so service visits always took almost an hour. Before I got rid of my Audi, my local dealer changed the layout of the service advisor desks. They make their customer stand at counter height desk for the service advisor, to speed up the process rather than hiring more advisors. Lexus service department tends to have many service advisors available (7-10) and you're usually out within 20-30 minutes. Repairs and services cost much more at Audi than Lexus too.
Reliability:
I had my A4 outside of warranty for a few years. As soon as it passes the 50K miles mark, everything starts to go wrong. Before my family finally got rid of the car around 120K miles, the whole A/C unit had to be changed, the car had significant oil consumption issues (Audi refused to cover anything even though there was a lawsuit because the car was outside warranty), engine started developing knocking, and the list goes on. Before you say the car was probably neglected, the car was maintained according to the service manual and most services were performed at the dealer. Maybe Audi has improved in the last few years, but I just won't keep an Audi long-term anymore. Lexus on the other hand, look how many old LS and ES are still on the road. I think it's a testament of the durability of Lexus. Like others have mentioned, look at the first page of each forum and you will see Audi first pages filled with problems and Lexus first pages filled with questions about features and pics of cars (maybe a few problems here and there).
Quick note about the A8, the tech is a little outdated compared to the new tech (virtual cockpit and revised MMI) Audi offers in some 2017 models. It is due for an update very soon...but so is the LS.
Everyone will have their own ownership experience though. You can have the experience where nothing breaks and things just work or the complete opposite where you need a second mortgage to keep the thing on the road.
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Hummel (12-19-16)
12-19-16, 10:40 AM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
Dealer quality varies, in my experience the individual dealer makes more difference than what brand they service.
12-19-16, 11:37 AM
#38
Lexus Test Driver
I don't frequent the dealer often, but I have made my share of trips over the past few years between oil changes, recalls, questions and a goodwill gesture.
Unfortunately, I have a Lexus dealer about 7 minutes away from my home and have given them ample opportunities to provide great service, and they have been successful at failing in a multitude of ways.
This past mid-summer I did some research on dealerships in the area, as I had a few small issues I wanted someone familiar with Lexus to address, and came across a place a bit over an hour away, and they were able to address my issues immediately as well as provide top-notch service.
It really just depends.
12-27-16, 05:43 AM
#39
Driver School Candidate
In my experience, Audi turbo models have been nightmares. I think it is the added heat. I had multiple coil packs and other various electrical problems at relatively low miles.
12-31-16, 08:27 AM
#40
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Well, after test driving both on Dec 23rd, we made a deal on the last 2016 A8 at a Portland OR, area dealership. I had no intention of purchasing, but the deal they eventually offered after a week of hearing "not at this time", was too good to walk away from. Two totally different cars in regard to the driving experience and both of them extremely well put together. The Audi offered much more tech than the LS for the money. In the 34 years that my wife and I have been together she has never gotten the least bit excited over a car purchase. Well.....that all changed when the massaging front seats were demonstrated. I have never seen her so giddy, and as they say, "Happy wife, happy life". I would have been more than satisfied with an LS but we are looking forward to our new car.
Thank you all for your input. I wish you all the best for the new year.
Thank you all for your input. I wish you all the best for the new year.
12-31-16, 10:40 AM
#41
The Audi A8 is an amazing automobile and a driver's car. A Luxury and sporty full size car. It has an awesome sound system far better than the ML. Reliability is a concern like many other imports but the A8 handles, sounds and drives great. The next generation LS needs to up its game.
12-31-16, 12:10 PM
#42
Lead Lap
The Audi A8 is an amazing automobile and a driver's car. A Luxury and sporty full size car. It has an awesome sound system far better than the ML. Reliability is a concern like many other imports but the A8 handles, sounds and drives great. The next generation LS needs to up its game.
While I totally respect your opinion, the Bang & Olufsen system just does not impress me to the same degree. This especially applies to both respective companies standing in high end AV where both are rooted. Mark Levinson is at the pinnacle of the absolute pinnacle of what some call "esoteric" or "high end" home audio where they truly are in the pantheon.
B&O, while exceedingly expensive, does not share the same esteem across the current high end audio press and enthusiasts alike. Moreover, B&O stuff is usually a one stop solution whereas ML generally does AV Processors and amplification and one goes to say Focal, Dynaudio, Thiel and others for speakers.
12-31-16, 12:30 PM
#43
Lead Lap
And congrats on the A8. I absolutely love the cars, the interior, et al, but I am a naturally aspirated guy through and through. The 4.2 V8 A8's even going back to the late 90's to early 2000's were actually pretty darn durable and my friend who now has a 2004 LS430 Ultra Luxury had a 2000 A8L for around 6 years and while there was the occasional electrical gremlin, the drivetrain held up with close to 200,000 miles.
The only reason he actually sold it is that it failed emissions where he lives outside Nashville and the catalytic converters to replace were worth far more than the car was. In most of Tennessee that is not an issue and likewise, this area is run amok with fellas in their $70,000 diesel P/U's from the big 3 that are "rolling coal".
I get raising the boost to turn say a Duramax into an utter beast with nothing more than a handheld tuner, but a cloud of black smoke....
The only reason he actually sold it is that it failed emissions where he lives outside Nashville and the catalytic converters to replace were worth far more than the car was. In most of Tennessee that is not an issue and likewise, this area is run amok with fellas in their $70,000 diesel P/U's from the big 3 that are "rolling coal".
I get raising the boost to turn say a Duramax into an utter beast with nothing more than a handheld tuner, but a cloud of black smoke....
12-31-16, 01:14 PM
#44
Lexus Champion
Well, after test driving both on Dec 23rd, we made a deal on the last 2016 A8 at a Portland OR, area dealership. I had no intention of purchasing, but the deal they eventually offered after a week of hearing "not at this time", was too good to walk away from. Two totally different cars in regard to the driving experience and both of them extremely well put together. The Audi offered much more tech than the LS for the money. In the 34 years that my wife and I have been together she has never gotten the least bit excited over a car purchase. Well.....that all changed when the massaging front seats were demonstrated. I have never seen her so giddy, and as they say, "Happy wife, happy life". I would have been more than satisfied with an LS but we are looking forward to our new car.
Thank you all for your input. I wish you all the best for the new year.
Thank you all for your input. I wish you all the best for the new year.
Last edited by Gbp; 12-31-16 at 03:57 PM.
12-31-16, 02:24 PM
#45
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
I am researching that right now. The extended warranty that the dealer offered had a $250 deductible for a 7 /70,000 plan. Their best price was around $2,700 and I had to decide on the spot. I declined. I am buying the Audi Care Package that takes care of all maintenance for 4 yrs / 45,000 mi. The cost of that package is $849, non-negotiable from Audi. I do not do my own maintenance so this should save me a considerable amount over paying for each service as it occurs. My son talked his Realtor into buying a new A8 diesel in 2015 and she has had no issues with hers, although my car has the 3.0 supercharged six.
Last edited by Hummel; 12-31-16 at 02:30 PM.