2018 Lexus LS Revealed!!
#211
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Originally Posted by peteharvey
I hope so too Steve.
I'm worried they'll put that 3.5 TT into the 2019 5GS, and it'll still idle poorly like my 4GS, but I'm sure they'll use a smaller 3.0 TT in the 5GS; the smaller 3.0 V6 has a more reasonable idle, and revs beautifully.
Interestingly, my missus new 200t doesn't rev that well, but it idles better than both our 3.5 and even our 3.0 V6's too, and the 200t has been heavily insulated for loudness.
I'm worried they'll put that 3.5 TT into the 2019 5GS, and it'll still idle poorly like my 4GS, but I'm sure they'll use a smaller 3.0 TT in the 5GS; the smaller 3.0 V6 has a more reasonable idle, and revs beautifully.
Interestingly, my missus new 200t doesn't rev that well, but it idles better than both our 3.5 and even our 3.0 V6's too, and the 200t has been heavily insulated for loudness.
#212
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I have no experience with turbos but I just dont see that kind of functionality to be reliable long term.
Gas is fairly cheap right now, id rather have a simple v8, pay littlr more for fuel and not worry about the mechanical reliability of a turbo engine.
it seems like manufacturers today are more concerned with squeezing every extra mpg they can get, all while ignoring long term reliability.
Gas is fairly cheap right now, id rather have a simple v8, pay littlr more for fuel and not worry about the mechanical reliability of a turbo engine.
it seems like manufacturers today are more concerned with squeezing every extra mpg they can get, all while ignoring long term reliability.
Till then "Please enjoy our 24in HUD display"
- Lexus
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Bogglo (01-13-17)
#213
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However, traditionally, we do know how the old atmos 2.5, atmos 3.0, atmos 3.5 and atmos 4.6L V8's idles and revs, and the 3.5 doesn't idle nor rev as well as the others in this list.
We also know that the latest 200t can idle quite well, but still cannot rev well.
So it will be interesting to see the NVH characteristics of the 3.5 TT, and a 3.0 TT if the latter exists...
#214
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I wouldn't take an experience with one engine In one application as a sign of what a different engine will be like in a different application.
#215
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The past is often indicative of the future, but NOT always; the 80/20 Law.
They say that history has a habit of repeating itself.
Just an educated guess only Steve...
#216
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Originally Posted by peteharvey
The past is often indicative of the future, but NOT always; the 80/20 Law.
They say that history has a habit of repeating itself.
Just an educated guess only Steve...
They say that history has a habit of repeating itself.
Just an educated guess only Steve...
I'm certain Lexus took great care in making sure that this engine is very smooth seeing that returning customers will be comparing them to their V8s
#217
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On power (which most people mean torque) the recent crop of turbo engines have remarkably flat torque curves and low peaks due to the long-stroke design and other technologies. Having driven the Mercedes turbo 4s they feel like a diesel; they pull strongly from low RPMs and feel a little breathless at high RPMs. Obviously having lots of torque down low also helps fuel economy as the revs can remain relatively now. I'm sure the 10sp autobox helps keep the engine at full boil when you need it.
We'll see; we can speculate all we want but until someone drives the beast we won't know what it feels like. Acura and Nissan have both made world class powerplants with V6 engines (NSX and GTR) so it's certainly possible.
I will still miss the V8; even with a smaller forcefed engine the old adage remains; there is no replacement for displacement. Despite having only 230hp the 5.6 V8 in my 560SEL feels plenty strong; even with the 4sp slushbox behind it.
#218
Lexus Test Driver
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Ideally, Lexus should have developed a 4 liter V8 TT pushing out 480-500 HP.
This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.
It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.
It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.
Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.
This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.
This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.
It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.
It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.
Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.
This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.
#219
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My intimate experience with NA v8 from MB, BMW, and Lexus, ttV8 BMW, and v6 and ttv6 from Nissan is that there will always be split second lag responses from the TT engine, and while torque down low is great, a good engine is only as good as its tranny. Jainla is right about how his 5.6 v8 still kicks *** with a well built 4 speed tranny. Those stats about 0-60 and 1/4 mile are just straight line pedal to the metal for talking heads. Real road driving is where you feel the difference between a GTR, M5 e60, M3, 750, and S63.
Lexus was never about engines or car being the fastest. They are about the all round package value plus the reliability. So they end up also late to the party. Don't expect the new LS with even a ttv8 to outrun a bimmer, MB, or Audi. Do expect Lexus to continue to be more reliable.
Lexus was never about engines or car being the fastest. They are about the all round package value plus the reliability. So they end up also late to the party. Don't expect the new LS with even a ttv8 to outrun a bimmer, MB, or Audi. Do expect Lexus to continue to be more reliable.
#220
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Ideally, Lexus should have developed a 4 liter V8 TT pushing out 480-500 HP.
This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.
It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.
It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.
Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.
This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.
This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.
It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.
It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.
Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.
This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.
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#221
Lexus Test Driver
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Reaching your peak power essentially at an idle would mean you would be losing power and on the downward slide right from the get go
To me 4000 or 4500 rpm would be ideal for a peak , that's where the 460 is and I'm sure the new model will be somewhere near that as well
You need to look up stats on turbo engines lol. I'm just making up numbers to make the point. Look up the TT Cadillac CT6, it has full torque available at 2,500 RPM. If you don't think having 75 more lb feet of torque available 1500 RPM sooner isn't going to make the LS500 faster than our LS460s you don't get how power and availability of power translates into driving feel.
The LS500 will absolutely smoke an LS460.
And there are absolutely cars that make full power at 1500 RPM or below. Big one is hybrid cars. Electric motors make full power at 0RPM. Why do you think the Ferrari LaFerrari is a hybrid?
Technology changes the playing field.
The LS500 will absolutely smoke an LS460.
And there are absolutely cars that make full power at 1500 RPM or below. Big one is hybrid cars. Electric motors make full power at 0RPM. Why do you think the Ferrari LaFerrari is a hybrid?
Technology changes the playing field.
The ls500 wont "absolutely smoke" the 460, it will slightly take the lead and leave everyone wondering " is that all they came up with in ten years of planning and engineering??
Ideally, Lexus should have developed a 4 liter V8 TT pushing out 480-500 HP.
This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.
It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.
It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.
Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.
This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.
This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.
It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.
It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.
Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.
This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.
The only positive that's going to come from this is that people will be dumping those stock twin turbos and installing some monster singles, and you will see 700+ hp ls500's very soon after release
If Lexus made the tranny/drivetrain stout enough to handle some real power then they might squeak out a win , if not .....
#222
Lexus Test Driver
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Well they're late and doing anyone who buys this thing a gigantic disservice if what you say is true.
They had years to develop this engine and should have introduced with the new LS.
Frankly, after what they pulled and their insistence on calling this thing the "500," I seriously, seriously doubt that's the case. It's not happening.
They had years to develop this engine and should have introduced with the new LS.
Frankly, after what they pulled and their insistence on calling this thing the "500," I seriously, seriously doubt that's the case. It's not happening.
#223
Lexus Fanatic
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I know what he said, and reaching peak torque or HP at 1500 rpm would be a failed design
Reaching your peak power essentially at an idle would mean you would be losing power and on the downward slide right from the get go
To me 4000 or 4500 rpm would be ideal for a peak , that's where the 460 is and I'm sure the new model will be somewhere near that as well
Reaching your peak power essentially at an idle would mean you would be losing power and on the downward slide right from the get go
To me 4000 or 4500 rpm would be ideal for a peak , that's where the 460 is and I'm sure the new model will be somewhere near that as well
If you want to see, go drive a Cadillac CT6 3.0TT. I have, MUCH quicker and feels far more powerful than my LS460...as will the LS500. Thats a great car for people worried about this engine to go drive.
The LS500 will not have peak torque in the 4000-4500 range, that would not be a characteristic you would find in a turbo engine. Like I said, that TT V6 CT6 has peak torque at 2,500 RPM (that it not a made up number, look it up), and the LS500 will be similar. You'll enjoy the power of that engine much more than the NA V8 we have now.
What we may not enjoy as much is the feel and sound, but the power will unquestionably be much stouter.
What you're missing is the interplay between torque and HP. The torque is what gets you moving, at higher speeds and rev ranges thats where the HP becomes important. Thats why diesel engines and huge trucks have a ton of torque and less HP, because torque is what does the work of moving things from a stop.
To illustrate this, these are the specs for a BMW M4. Look at the torque and when its at peak....1,850 RPM. You see that peak HP is still at 5500 RPM.
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The ls500 wont "absolutely smoke" the 460, it will slightly take the lead and leave everyone wondering " is that all they came up with in ten years of planning and engineering??
Last edited by SW17LS; 01-12-17 at 08:55 PM.
#224
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Ideally, Lexus should have developed a 4 liter V8 TT pushing out 480-500 HP.
This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.
It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.
It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.
Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.
This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.
This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.
It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.
It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.
Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.
This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.
You never know - they may presently have a 4.0 V8 TT under development.
They're just releasing the 2.0 i4 T first.
Followed by a 3.5 V6 TT.
Then maybe a 3.0 V6 TT.
And then maybe finally comes the 4.0 V8 TT.
However, TMC president Akio is presently busy heading their electric vehicles division, so it's pretty hard to make an educated guess and speculate as to what's going to happen.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelsc.../#103f27289c12
This is a very bad period for TMC and the entire industry, because they have spent so much money developing different powertrain formats like: gasoline-electric hybrids, hydrogen fuel cell powered electric, small capacity turbo diesels, and even small capacity gasoline turbos - yet NO single format has appeared to predominate.
I'm sure TMC would rather jump straight onto the electric vehicle bandwagon altogether and save hundreds of millions of dollars developing a twin turbo in-line six and a twin turbo 4.0 V8.
I'm sure TMC wanted to stretch the lifespan of their atmos V6 and V8's as much as possible, and combine that with gasoline-electric hybrid, but these engines didn't seem to make it during the transitional interim.
Hydrogen fuel cell powered electric vehicles seems to have slowed down largely due to the impracticality of building the hydrogen infrastructure.
During the interim, they have to spend millions developing small capacity turbos like bread and butter turbo fours, and decent volume selling twin turbo V6's.
But they probably don't want to waste too much money doing this [ie by developing niche "halo" twin turbo 4.0 V8's etc], when battery powered electric vehicles BEV's is just around the corner.
During the interim, it is still a good idea to buy a small capacity turbo, because I suspect battery powered electric vehicles BEV's will take some time to get into stride [improve in quality and fall in price], especially with a "dedicated" electric vehicle platform, rather than using a conventional internal combustion engine ICE platform...
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Last edited by peteharvey; 01-12-17 at 09:04 PM.
#225
Pole Position
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this is so true; when the ls460 came out, i didnt think i would ever own one...now i have one...
they are not talking 0-60 times for awd..i hope they dont lose 30hp like the current ls460s
they are not talking 0-60 times for awd..i hope they dont lose 30hp like the current ls460s