SW17LS

Seeing that none of us have driven the 3.5TT and a 3.0TT is just something we're making up, I think positing comparisons of how they idle is premature.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

To be fair though, this TTV6 has been in development for years now. Lexus takes awhile to get to market because they dot their i's and cross their t's. I'd wager they did their homework on this powertrain and then some. At 3.5 liters it should be less stressed than similar 3.0 FI sixes from competitors. There are more powertrains coming to the LS, we just need to be patient. Heck it took a decade to get this generation here, they are in no rush and run on their own timetable.

Till then "Please enjoy our 24in HUD display"
- Lexus

peteharvey

Yes, we have no idea how the 3.5 TT idles & revs, and we have no idea if a 3.0 TT even exists at all.

However, traditionally, we do know how the old atmos 2.5, atmos 3.0, atmos 3.5 and atmos 4.6L V8's idles and revs, and the 3.5 doesn't idle nor rev as well as the others in this list.
We also know that the latest 200t can idle quite well, but still cannot rev well.
So it will be interesting to see the NVH characteristics of the 3.5 TT, and a 3.0 TT if the latter exists...

SW17LS

I wouldn't take an experience with one engine In one application as a sign of what a different engine will be like in a different application.

peteharvey

The past is often indicative of the future, but NOT always; the 80/20 Law.
They say that history has a habit of repeating itself.
Just an educated guess only Steve...

SW17LS

Bear in mind that the 3.5 in the GS and the 3.5 in the ES are closely related, and the ES idles very smoothly.

I'm certain Lexus took great care in making sure that this engine is very smooth seeing that returning customers will be comparing them to their V8s

jainla

Lexus has a long history of NVH innovations; including fluid filled engine mounts, active engine mounts, etc. So I'm hoping that they will bring some new magic to bear here to make the V6 feel like a V8.

On power (which most people mean torque) the recent crop of turbo engines have remarkably flat torque curves and low peaks due to the long-stroke design and other technologies. Having driven the Mercedes turbo 4s they feel like a diesel; they pull strongly from low RPMs and feel a little breathless at high RPMs. Obviously having lots of torque down low also helps fuel economy as the revs can remain relatively now. I'm sure the 10sp autobox helps keep the engine at full boil when you need it.

We'll see; we can speculate all we want but until someone drives the beast we won't know what it feels like. Acura and Nissan have both made world class powerplants with V6 engines (NSX and GTR) so it's certainly possible.

I will still miss the V8; even with a smaller forcefed engine the old adage remains; there is no replacement for displacement. Despite having only 230hp the 5.6 V8 in my 560SEL feels plenty strong; even with the 4sp slushbox behind it.

Rhambler

Ideally, Lexus should have developed a 4 liter V8 TT pushing out 480-500 HP.

This engine would have constituted the pinnacle and what better place to use it then in the new LS.

It would have immediately bested anything else in its class, Mercedes S550, Audi A8 4 TT and 750i. It could have also served as the engine of choice in the GS and RC F, while also being the base engine in the LC.

It wouldn't take much to ECU boost this thing to serve in an LS and LC F, maybe on the order of 580 HP. This is precisely what BMW and Audi does with their V8 TTs.

Or conversely use the 3.5 V6TT in the RC and GS F while leaving the V8 solely in the realm of the flagship while also offering that V6 TT as a base engine.

This is is what they should have done. It would have completely legitimized the LS and placed it right back where it belongs.

Bimmer32

My intimate experience with NA v8 from MB, BMW, and Lexus, ttV8 BMW, and v6 and ttv6 from Nissan is that there will always be split second lag responses from the TT engine, and while torque down low is great, a good engine is only as good as its tranny. Jainla is right about how his 5.6 v8 still kicks *** with a well built 4 speed tranny. Those stats about 0-60 and 1/4 mile are just straight line pedal to the metal for talking heads. Real road driving is where you feel the difference between a GTR, M5 e60, M3, 750, and S63.

Lexus was never about engines or car being the fastest. They are about the all round package value plus the reliability. So they end up also late to the party. Don't expect the new LS with even a ttv8 to outrun a bimmer, MB, or Audi. Do expect Lexus to continue to be more reliable.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Who's to say Lexus doesn't have a FI V8 under development as we speak..

1WILLY1

iTrader: (9)

I know what he said, and reaching peak torque or HP at 1500 rpm would be a failed design

Reaching your peak power essentially at an idle would mean you would be losing power and on the downward slide right from the get go

To me 4000 or 4500 rpm would be ideal for a peak , that's where the 460 is and I'm sure the new model will be somewhere near that as well

I had a feeling you were making numbers up

The ls500 wont "absolutely smoke" the 460, it will slightly take the lead and leave everyone wondering " is that all they came up with in ten years of planning and engineering??

Agreed

The only positive that's going to come from this is that people will be dumping those stock twin turbos and installing some monster singles, and you will see 700+ hp ls500's very soon after release

If Lexus made the tranny/drivetrain stout enough to handle some real power then they might squeak out a win , if not .....

Rhambler

Well they're late and doing anyone who buys this thing a gigantic disservice if what you say is true.

They had years to develop this engine and should have introduced with the new LS.

Frankly, after what they pulled and their insistence on calling this thing the "500," I seriously, seriously doubt that's the case. It's not happening.

SW17LS

What you're saying is just not true. Go drive a Tesla Model S P100D and tell me that its a failed design, because peak torque is available at 1RPM in that car. More torque available early in the power band is better for every day driving, because you're not driving around winding your LS out at 4k+ RPM all the time, most of your driving is done in lower RPM bands. Turbo engines bring the power down into those bands where you use the engine's available power more in everyday driving...hence they feel much peppier.

If you want to see, go drive a Cadillac CT6 3.0TT. I have, MUCH quicker and feels far more powerful than my LS460...as will the LS500. Thats a great car for people worried about this engine to go drive.

The LS500 will not have peak torque in the 4000-4500 range, that would not be a characteristic you would find in a turbo engine. Like I said, that TT V6 CT6 has peak torque at 2,500 RPM (that it not a made up number, look it up), and the LS500 will be similar. You'll enjoy the power of that engine much more than the NA V8 we have now.

What we may not enjoy as much is the feel and sound, but the power will unquestionably be much stouter.

What you're missing is the interplay between torque and HP. The torque is what gets you moving, at higher speeds and rev ranges thats where the HP becomes important. Thats why diesel engines and huge trucks have a ton of torque and less HP, because torque is what does the work of moving things from a stop.

To illustrate this, these are the specs for a BMW M4. Look at the torque and when its at peak....1,850 RPM. You see that peak HP is still at 5500 RPM.



0-60 1 full second faster...75 more lb ft of torque available 1500-2000 RPM lower...200lbs lighter...yes it will blow the doors off an LS460 power wise and feel much more powerful in town from light to light and off the line. Thats just physics.

peteharvey

Yes, ideally.
You never know - they may presently have a 4.0 V8 TT under development.

They're just releasing the 2.0 i4 T first.
Followed by a 3.5 V6 TT.
Then maybe a 3.0 V6 TT.
And then maybe finally comes the 4.0 V8 TT.

However, TMC president Akio is presently busy heading their electric vehicles division, so it's pretty hard to make an educated guess and speculate as to what's going to happen.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelsc.../#103f27289c12

This is a very bad period for TMC and the entire industry, because they have spent so much money developing different powertrain formats like: gasoline-electric hybrids, hydrogen fuel cell powered electric, small capacity turbo diesels, and even small capacity gasoline turbos - yet NO single format has appeared to predominate.

I'm sure TMC would rather jump straight onto the electric vehicle bandwagon altogether and save hundreds of millions of dollars developing a twin turbo in-line six and a twin turbo 4.0 V8.
I'm sure TMC wanted to stretch the lifespan of their atmos V6 and V8's as much as possible, and combine that with gasoline-electric hybrid, but these engines didn't seem to make it during the transitional interim.
Hydrogen fuel cell powered electric vehicles seems to have slowed down largely due to the impracticality of building the hydrogen infrastructure.
During the interim, they have to spend millions developing small capacity turbos like bread and butter turbo fours, and decent volume selling twin turbo V6's.
But they probably don't want to waste too much money doing this [ie by developing niche "halo" twin turbo 4.0 V8's etc], when battery powered electric vehicles BEV's is just around the corner.

During the interim, it is still a good idea to buy a small capacity turbo, because I suspect battery powered electric vehicles BEV's will take some time to get into stride [improve in quality and fall in price], especially with a "dedicated" electric vehicle platform, rather than using a conventional internal combustion engine ICE platform...
.

UZ214

this is so true; when the ls460 came out, i didnt think i would ever own one...now i have one...

they are not talking 0-60 times for awd..i hope they dont lose 30hp like the current ls460s