Junglequac

I could not possibly agree more. The do not call Ghosn "Le Cost Cutter" for nothing. I owned a 2004 M45 which is somewhat of a mutant of a JDM only car (Cedric/Gloria) coupled with the drivetrain from the last generation of the Q45. While not a bad car and honestly I think the build quality is a touch above the 2006+ M45, simply put Infiniti does have near the resources that Toyota/Lexus has.

I would absolutely go with a G90 or G80 for that matter over an Infiniti, but would still go with a Lexus over them. Resale on the Lexus long term will most likely continue to be superior and I could not possibly be happier with my 2007.

It appears that a number of both previous and prospective 460 owners have gone with the Audi A8. That I completely understand. They really are awesome cars and the interior is one of the finest on the market.

WNYPAT

For folks like me who drive too many miles to lease, the G90 has the subjective problem of it being a $70K Hyundai. To me, if I'm dropping that kind of cash, I want people to recognize the car as one of the players in the luxury market. Might sound stupid, but it is true for me. The objective problem of it being a complete nightmare when it comes to depreciation is very real as well. OTOH, the LS takes a pretty big hit too the first couple years especially. It will take many years for Hyundai (or any other company like it) to build a nameplate and reputation that would come close to equaling that of Lexus. Time will tell. On paper, it looks like a great deal.

Junglequac

Exactly. And is why I too brought up that very thing. This is my 3rd Lexus in a row and so far have lost around $1000 from what I originally paid when selling the other two. The best was my old LX470 that I purchased for $13,500 with 70,000 miles that I sold around 2 years ago with 140,000 miles and sold it for $12,500 with a $3000 repair needed. (back door had a huge dent requiring replacement)

As I always pay cash for my cars, I am all about preowned. I truly found a unicorn in my 460 in that it was a Southern car with zero accident history and went to Lexus every 5k for a full synthetic oil change from new.

As the PO was a VP for Wells Fargo, it would not surprise me if the car was part of his compensation package. What I do know is he serviced it with money being no object. Aside from the dent from him backing into a mailbox, it really was in immaculate condition. I have since fixed the dent and factoring the repair have barely over $17,000 and it barely has 90,000 miles and has all major options aside from the self park.

SW17LS

The G90 is a $70,000 Hyundai, and the comparable LS is a $96,000 Toyota. IMHO looking down at Genesis for "being a Hyundai" when you drive a Lexus doesn't make any sense lol. That "its just a Toyota" stigma is something every BMW or Mercedes fan will throw at your Lexus. Its just not a concern for me at all, especially not at a value proposition that significant. Like I said, I'd rather have the Lexus too...but for $30,000 more? Thats a ton of money. The only reason I have my LS over an S550 is the price gap. If I was buying primarily for badge, thats what I would have.

Resale is a valid concern, but thats why you lease it. When you lease, if the numbers work who cares about the resale?

caha14

...regarding the notion of a "$70,000 Hyundai"...

Not that long ago, when Lexus debuted with the 1990 LS400, the same logic arguably applied. I mean, why spend close to $40k on a "luxury" Toyota? Yes, Toyota's reputation for durability and reliability was well-known, and I realize that a decade-plus ago, this wasn't the case for Hyundai, but times have changed, and I have heard nothing but positive things about the G cars.

The punchline (i.e., my aforementioned "tidbit"): $38k (give or take, the price of a new, reasonably-equipped, LS400 back in 1989) is roughly $75k in today's dollars. Am I missing anything? Longer warranty, solid build quality, attractive introductory pricing, etc.?

WNYPAT

In fairness, the "it's just a Toyota" argument isn't apples to apples. The G90 is a Hyundai. The Lexus is a Lexus, sold under a completely different nameplate. IMO, even assuming the G90 really is a competitor to the LS in the long term (as durable, as reliable, relatively equal resale value at 7-8 years, etc), Hyundai still has to convince the target audience of $70K-$100K cars that the G90 is worth serious consideration. I'd say that's a generational marketing strategy and Hyundai will have to follow the path that Lexus did. If you go back and read the initial articles on the original LS400, there were plenty of "it's just a Toyota" critics. Lexus has changed that slowly over the past 30 years.

If you are happy with your G90, be happy with it. I have one of the last of the 4th generation Acura TLs because I truly don't believe the new 3.5 (285HP) Acura Earth Dreams motor can hold a candle to my "old" 3.7L (307HP) coupled with the SH-AWD system. People give me grief and disagree with me. I even lined the 2 cars up (the 2015 TLX 3.5 SH-AWD vs my TL 3.7 SH-AWD) and proved my point: my 3.7 stayed next to the TLX until about 35MPH but that literally walked away from the TLX, the faster we went the faster I was pulling away). Others firmly prefer the TLX for other reasons despite that. That's ok. I'll stay in my TL and smile. It sounds like you get in your G90 and smile. That's all that matters.

SW17LS

That's where your information is out of date. The G90 is sold under the Genesis nameplate. For 2017+ Genesis is its own luxury brand, it's not sold as a Hyundai.

Only difference to Lexus is Genesis doesn't have the dealer network...yet. But they come and get the car for any and all service so you never have to go to the dealer.

I don't have a G90, I have an LS460. Likely my last Lexus though.

WNYPAT

If Hyundai doesn't have their own dealer network for the G90, then they aren't even at the point Lexus was when the LS400 was released 25 or more years ago. Hyundai has a long road ahead to develop and maintain a customer base from a pretty small segment of the car buying population. I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the G90, it's just not a car I would consider buying at this point in time. 10 years from now, I might have a completely different view. Ive had all sorts of cars, from lux brands (a couple of Mercedes E class cars), faux lux brands (my current Acura TL), Honda Pilot Touring, Honda Odyssey Elite, and all sorts of Toyotas. Not sure my next car will be a Lexus either, it'll depend on the real world experience of those buying the new LS500s this year. If not, who knows, maybe a BMW or a Jag, live on the edge. Lol

Whinenot

Hats off to SWLS15 for going to the Nth degree to make their point! I went from a '04 LS 430 to a low mileage (30-odd k) '12 Infiniti FX 35 primarily as a response to winter driving concerns with the RWD 430. I had it for about a month before starting to look for another Lexus LS. Granted very different vehicles and purpose but the Infiniti was loaded with 360 degree camera, Bose, Touring Package, etc. Plenty of power, great in the snow but rode like a '76 Harley hardtail chopper. The build quality and design intent were not there for me as well as far less design foresight for working on the vehicle. I did over $400 worth of shop quoted work to my '11 LS AWD this weekend in a couple hours, was impressed all over again and thankful at engineering, quality and ease of design/access.
A $78K Toyota is exactly what I want and I chose to pay far less than that figure for an extremely well maintained used vehicle in perfect shape. Depreciation is nothing exciting to me. I am self-employed, the LS is my work vehicle and I do not buy anything I can't pay for outright. Contrary to SWLS15 I do miles rather than depreciation because I plan on keeping my vehicle for the long haul. A different perspective than some but I also understand fully the benefits of leasing and writing it off, a great business plan. Toyota/Lexus reliability and quality is what I have been buying for decades and dollar for value it will continue to be my choice. Infiniti did not come close to comparing for me.

SW17LS

$30,000 is $30,000 lol. Plenty of people held onto their conceptions about brand and paid WAY more than the LS400 also, but those who were able to take a chance on something were rewarded with a really great car at a great value, which is what the G90 is. Seeing that I lease, its a 3 year lease...what is there to loose? And...its a 3 year lease that costs me $16,000 less over 3 years than leasing a comparable LS, and thats not even factoring in what the cost of the LS500 is going to be vs an LS460L optioned that way now. So...again...where is the risk or downside? If one was buying a car to be their car for 10 years then yeah, theres more risk...but a lot of people lease these cars, and Genesis is clearly targeting lease buyers as a way to get into the market which is very smart IMHO.

I've had three LSs, you should go drive a G90...its every bit as good a car to drive as an LS460...if not better in some ways. Features and tech are way better, service will be better since its included and you get the service concierge. Interior material quality, seats, etc are also better in the G90. Ride and cabin noise, almost exactly the same. Like I said, they clearly targeted the LS. Something to be said for being a customer of a brand trying to make a name for itself too.

Having owned as many Lexus vehicles as I have over as long as I have, Lexus isn't what it used to be. The product in the LS is still very good, but from a service perspective I would rank them mediocre. Even the product, while I love my LS460, its not built as well as my LS400 or LS430 were. I've had to track down some little creaks and rattles now at 33k miles. I just took the console sides off and put padding in to quiet an annoying console rattle, I just noticed my rear passenger door panel pops out from the door and won't stay snapped in, will have to take it to the dealer. The latter could have been caused by the window tint install I had done, but that was 2 years ago. My glovebox damping is broken and the glovebox just slams down, dealer tried to fix it once and it lasted about 4 days. Such things would have NEVER been the case in my older LS or Lexus cars. My LS400 had not one rattle, creak or moan with 165,000 miles on it, nor my LS430 at 100k miles, or my old ES300 which is still in the family at 187k miles...not one rattle, yet I have had to chase some rattles in my LS460 at 33k miles. My 13 GS had rattles in the console (interestingly same as I had in the 460). Leather materials aren't nearly as good as what I had on the LS400 or LS430, although I do not have semi-aniline leather on the LS460 which would have helped that a lot. Brake rotors on the LS460 are awful, just replaced them with aftermarket, while my LS400 and LS430 never had issues with warping rotors (my other Lexus products have though) Don't think I'm not happy with the 460, I am...but I'm somebody who calls it like I see it and these things are there. Purely...Lexus isn't trying as hard with the quality of the product not being over the top like it used to be. The product is still very good, but it doesn't stand above the competition like it once did. Some of that is the competition has gotten better, but some is Lexus has relaxed their standards.

Most of the little perks or plusses of "Lexus service" are gone, they clearly feel that they are in a strong position and no longer care about "wowing" their customers. Lexus dealers used to pick up and drop of my cars, they don't anymore. They used to do a detailed wash with every service similar to what is done with new car delivery, now they run it through the tunnel and don't even bother to dry it, vacuum it or dress the tires. When you would have a warranty concern, they apologized, gave you a little note, filled your fuel...now they just try and find ways to get out of covering things under the warranty, pretending things are "normal", etc. They do crappy work and screw the car up trying to do it.

Part of my interest in the G90 comes from my experience with Hyundai/Kia with my Kia Sedona minivan. Not one rattle...tight and solid. Compare Hyundais and Kias and comparable Toyotas, the Toyotas are chintzy and thin by comparison. My experience has shown me that Toyota and Lexus have gotten complacent, while Hyundai/Kia/Genesis are really trying to go the extra mile.

So...like I said, the LS460 is likely my last Lexus. I love it, I may buy it out of the lease and keep it I really might, but the direction they are going with styling isn't for me universally, with them trying to charge more and present less value compared with the "big boys", I'm either going to pony up and get one of the "big boys" and try that, or saving money and going to a Genesis G90 built by a company a little hungrier to impress me really appeals to me.

Gbp

Interesting observations and insights about the G90 and LS, thanks. In terms of reliability, durability and build quality, I think you'd want to compare a G90 at the same or similar mileage as your LS460, and see how both age over time. I'm curious whether the rattles and other issues you've had with your LS460 are representative or unfortunate exceptions.

I'm not surprised at the loss of some of the service perks over time, yet I think some dealers offer more perks than others, and the quality of work (unfortunately) varies, too. I've been pretty happy with my Lexus dealer, but I don't have the length of history you've had, so I don't miss the perks I never had. They do seem to wash my car pretty thoroughly and dry it, but sometimes I've had some dirt on the inside from their work on the car. When that happens, I point it out, they apologize, and they take care of it.

Yes, I agree that, given the success of Lexus, they are probably devoting less time and money to perks and putting it into maximizing profitability. Still, that doesn't justify some of the complaints I've read here about the quality of dealer service.

If by "big boys", you mean Mercedes, BMW, and Audi, I suspect their perks and quality of service varies, too. I also suspect their reliability isn't up to Lexus's either, but if you switch new cars every two to three years, it might not matter as much if the differences are mostly in long-term reliability.

We will see how long the service perks last for the Genesis and what the service quality is. For the G90's predecessor, the Equus, I had read some complaints about inconsistency of service and lack of dealers qualified to service the car. If legitimate, perhaps those wrinkles have been ironed out. Unlike Lexus, Genesis still doesn't have their own dealer network. That's actually understandable since IIRC the Genesis brand at the moment consists of the G80 and G90, probably not enough models (and volume) to justify a separate dealership network. If Hyundai wishes Genesis to be a viable separate brand, it will have to work on that.

Here's a review of a new Genesis owner's First impressions, with other users chiming in. He seems thorough and objective, liking many of the car's features, but not hesitant to point out some minor complaints, too, which will possibly (probably) get addressed in next year's model.

http://genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?20164-2017-G90-V8-Ultimate-HTRAC-first-impressions&p=232257#post232257

DarKnight

iTrader: (3)

So in conclusion....

Gbp

...there is no conclusion. It depends on whether you want used or new, purchase or lease, your budget, and research, including test drives. I think the LS460 is a solid luxury car with an established history. If you want the latest and greatest technology, the G90 has many of those features as standard. For most other cars, they are options (when available) and you will pay for them.

I actually think a fully optioned LS460 isn't far behind a G90, and in some ways ahead of it, depending on how one defines "ahead". The LS460 offers a front DVD/CD player and as an option a rear seat entertainment Blu-Ray player. Does the Genesis offer the equivalent? Of course, you'll pay a much higher price for the LS460L.

As an aside, I like the DVD/CD changer on my 2010 and use it to play multiple CDs. I also use Bluetooth for streaming music, which the G90 has.

GoHuskers

If you CAN lease (with tax write-off benefits) then get the G90 for MUCH cheaper monthly payments. But if you are like "me" I'll get the LS.

@SW15LS - If I am you I would lease a G90 ultimate (and put those $500-700 monthly into saving)....most of your clients wouldn't be able to tell/care whether it is an LS, S550, or 7 series. Also, the G90 is so damn NICE and exclusive.

sktn77a

iTrader: (2)

The jury is still out on Hyundai/Genesis. Mazda's abortive attempt at introducing a luxury line (Amati) never got off the ground. Hyundai has passed that milestone, but lets see what their longer term success is.