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update 3/4/2018:
I don't like to dig up old threads, but I decided to do so in the hope that it helps someone else in the future:
I did a drain and fill on the vehicle a few weeks back, but that did not seem to help any of the issues i experienced. I did notice that the fluid was pitch black. Dipping a tissue in the fluid showed that it had no red at all.
The next week, I did a flush using a few of the tutorials on this site. I decided to use valvoline maxlife full synthetic multi-vehicle atf (the red version which is rated for toyota type IV and WS transmissions, not the blue, this only supports toyota type IV, its viscosity is higher). I used the same fluid and method on a ls400 and a ls430 i previously owned and figured that i couldn't make things worse if the tranny was on its way out. I used a 1 gal chemical spray pump to pump the fluid back in to the return oil cooler hose (driver's side) that goes to the transmission. it took 14qts before the fluid began to change color from black to red. After 16qts, it was red (added half a quart more to make fluid check easier). I used the procedure defined in the ls460 service manual to place the car into transmission temp detection mode and drained the fluid until it trickled out at a thin stream. I also used techstream to monitor the temperature, and it was 106F when it came out. You dont have to raise the vehicle to do any of this, including the fluid check. I just stuck my arm under the vehicle to loosen and tighten the overflow plug (5mm hex), and used a few work lights to keep an eye on the fluid coming out. Below are a few pics of the repair:
transmission coolant lines old transmission fluid running from radiator to container. clear hose is connected to out port (driver's side) of at cooler line on radiator. Black hose runs to the transmission. Pump filled with new transmission fluid was connected to the black hose the container I used to catch the old AT oil flowing out. Lines on container represent 2qt increments (measured using digital scale and water). The chemical sprayer I used to add new transmission fluid to the vehicle through the black AT oil return hose. Contrary to the labels on the container, it is not water
A side note about this. Many of the guides i read here recommend draining the fluid between 115-130F. According to toyota / lexus L-SB-0023-09 (attached), the proper temp range for a AA80E transmission in the ls460 and gs460 is 95-108F. 115-130F is for the A761E transmissions in the ls430/sc430.
transmission temperature range that fluid should be checked at per vehicle
After performing the flush, i noticed that my shudder went away, but the hesitation on light acceleration was still there. I did more research and found that the service manual states that the ls460 has a "valve body oil strainer assembly" (picture attached).
ls460 transmission filter or valve body oil strainer assembly
I remember that the A650E transmissions in the ls400 and early ls430s used a wire mesh screen for the filters and (unless you had large particles in the transmission), did not need to be changed. I thought the same went for the ls460, but after reviewing resources here and a few pictures of the OE filter, I realized that it is more of a traditional filter, with sponge like media. I thought that could definitely get clogged over time and decided to change it.
I order a beck arnley replacement and replaced the filter and pan gasket last week. One surprise that I had was that the fluid was a dark muddy brown, despite the drain and fill and flush I did earlier. Not sure if that was from contamination from the filter that were loosened up or if the flush I did failed to replace all of the fluid. In the process, about 6qts came out (much was still left in the pan after draining, and some came out while removing the filter).
After the replacement, I noticed that the hesitation on light acceleration was gone. So it looks like my issue was caused by degraded transmission fluid. After looking at the service records for the vehicle, it looks like the original owner last changed the fluid at 99k miles on 07/2011, so it was well due for a change, despite the notion of it being lifetime fluid. I used the valvoline since the toyota fluid is actual petroleum (and the valvoline was only $18 / gallon, which helped since i went through about 8 gallons of it through this entire process). I would have allowed lexus do the flush for me, but they wanted $300 for the change, and they stated that it was at my own risk since the flush could make it worse.
In addition, I also found two calibration updates for the vehicle. One for the ECM (engine control module), another for the TCM (transmission control module). Techstream reported that my vehicle did not have these updates:
Techstream report showing that calibration updates (ECU, ECM, PCM) for my vehicle were available. ECT is Electronically Controlled Transmission.
I found it interesting that the same symptoms I experienced were also covered in TSB L-SB-0122-17 - Hesitation on Acceleration. This article suggests to check spark plugs for acceleration hesitation issue and recommends applying calibration ID: 35055500. TSB TC009-07 - HESITATION OR BUMP FEELING also discussed similar symptoms and suggests updating TCM (transmission control module) with new calibration ID: 895365001300. There were two other ECU calibrations available for my vehicle, but I decided not to pursue these since i was not experiencing any of the issues:
35036100 - EG014-07: 07 LS 460/460L: Engine Idle Knock Noise
895365001200 - TC004-07: 07 LS 460/460L: Brake Hold System Does Not Release Upon Acceleration
Fun fact: According to T-SB-0134-16 - Techstream ECU Flash Reprogramming Procedure:
ECU is a Toyota term used to describe integrated computerized devices responsible for managing the operation of a system or subsystem. For the purposes of this bulletin, the term “ECU” is used as a generic label for the following SAE J1930 standard references.
• Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
• Engine Control Module (ECM)
• Transmission Control Module (TCM)
• Any other Toyota specific control unit
I was in the middle of planning the ECU update when the service adviser I worked with during the vehicle inspection gave me a call. I told him about the updates for the vehicle and asked if the fee that i paid for the inspection $89 + tax, could be applied to get the ECU updates for my vehicle. Fortunately, there were nice enough to get this done for me this week. This did not resolve the rough idle, but it did resolve the fluctuating idle issue i had while at a stop. The engine speed now stays at 700 rpm when at a stop light. I'm planning on cleaning the spark plugs and checking if they are iridium sometime this weekend if I can get the time. If that does not fix the rough idle, then I'll replace the motor and transmission mounts.
NOTE: If you decide to tackle the ECU update on your own, I highly recommend reading T-SB-0134-16 and ensuring that your setup is completely stable to avoid bricking your ECU. If that happens, you would have to use a tool (ktag?) to recover the ECU, or send it off to a shop for repair. According to cardone (an ecu re-programmer manufacturer) and an ECU repair shop I spoke with, any trickle / maintenance charger should hold the battery voltage around 13 V once the battery is completely charged (though toyota recommends that you avoid using these). A jump starter connected across the battery could also be used. You would want at least 12.4 V measured across the battery (toyota recommends 12.4 - 14 V), and preferably nothing that quick charges. Ideally, a charger with a power supply mode should be used (the noco g7200 is an affordable one that can do this).
I also plan to lubricate the bushings and other suspension components with silicone oil or grease. According to the manufacturers of chemicals i spoke with (3M and CRC), silicone is recommended for rubber components and not lithium grease. Silicone will not collect dirt or grime and is water resistant (which i guess is important on a component constantly exposed to these elements). In addition, rubber does not fare well against petroleum, which may be another reason to use silicone oil or grease (I would imagine that toyota would have used a type of rubber that is resistant to petroleum for the mounts and suspension, but I don't know. However, silicone will prevent paint from adhering, so its normally recommended to use this in areas that will not be painted.
Lastly, 3 out of 4 of the wheels on my vehicle were missing a lug nut. It might be psychological, but it felt like adding the missing lug nuts and tightening to spec (103.3 ft lbs according to pg 613 of the 2007 ls460 owner's manual) reduced some of the shaking i had at high speeds. I know my tires are playing a big factor in the shake at high speed, but I'll replace all 4 after I check that my suspension is up to par first. 4 new tires, road force balance, and an alignment will hopefully fix the remaining shaking.
Original post:
Hello,
I have a 2007 ls460 L and have noticed that the vehicle intermittently does a rough shudder that feels like its coming from the rear whenever i perform light acceleration (vibration is loud and rough from the rear). it tends to happen the most around 30-40 mph and 70-80 mph. I got the vehicle inspected by the dealer and they stated that the transmission is failing. Since they work on the vehicles so often, more than likely, they are correct. However, I have had vehicles with transmission problems before, and I did not notice any flaring during acceleration which is associated with bad transmissions. In addition, the issue does not occur when accelerating using cruise control or with cruise control at all, only under light acceleration manually (with the pedal). In addition, i used two calculators (https://www.ringpinion.com/calculators/Calc_RPM.aspx and http://www.bgsoflex.com/rpmmph.html) to determine the correct engine speed for the vehicle with the given gear, drive, and wheel diameter, and the engine speed calculated here matches what i get when i drive the vehicle at the respective speeds below (this may not always be the case, but I have noticed failing transmissions tend to cause the engine speed to run a bit higher as a tell tale sign):
specs:
top gear (transmission) ratio 0.685
final drive (differential) ratio 2.94
tires 235/50 R 18 (27” diameter)
calculated rpm at 60: 1503
calculated rpm at 70: 1753
calculated rpm at 80: 2005
This could also be related, but the vehicle's motor and transmission mounts are bad, since the car vibrates at idle. I have noticed that when coming to a stop, the engine speed (rpms) fluctuate between 500-700 rpm. When around 500rpm, it idles rough and i feel vibration, but when it goes up to 700, it smooths out.
I tried changing the engine oil using a full synthetic (0w-20 mobil 1 extended performance) and the differential with a full synthetic as well. I think the oil helped a bit with the rough idle, but the intermittent shudder still occurs. The dealer stated that they can try a flush to fix it, though there is a risk (9/10) that it will make the issue worse.
Is this definitely a transmission issue that i should start saving up for to repair, or could this be caused by another underlying issue? I have read about the ECU updates for the vehicle, but the dealer stated that there was no open campaigns for my vehicle (its a 2007 RWD). I have the techstream adapter and could look into downloading any ECU updates if they do exist for this vehicle.
Best regards,
Mike
Last edited by mm88; 03-04-18 at 08:36 PM.
Reason: Added results of transmission flush and other fixes, todos
With that in mind, I am hoping that is my issue as well. I may see about changing the transmission fluid anyway, but if it does not resolve the issue (and hopefully without making things worse) I'll work on what was suggested in the above thread.
update 3/4/2018:
I don't like to dig up old threads, but I decided to do so in the hope that it helps someone else in the future:
I did a drain and fill on the vehicle a few weeks back, but that did not seem to help any of the issues i experienced. I did notice that the fluid was pitch black. Dipping a tissue in the fluid showed that it had no red at all.
The next week, I did a flush using a few of the tutorials on this site. I decided to use valvoline maxlife full synthetic multi-vehicle atf (the red version which is rated for toyota type IV and WS transmissions, not the blue, this only supports toyota type IV, its viscosity is higher). I used the same fluid and method on a ls400 and a ls430 i previously owned and figured that i couldn't make things worse if the tranny was on its way out. I used a 1 gal chemical spray pump to pump the fluid back in to the return oil cooler hose (driver's side) that goes to the transmission. it took 14qts before the fluid began to change color from black to red. After 16qts, it was red (added half a quart more to make fluid check easier). I used the procedure defined in the ls460 service manual to place the car into transmission temp detection mode and drained the fluid until it trickled out at a thin stream. I also used techstream to monitor the temperature, and it was 106F when it came out. You dont have to raise the vehicle to do any of this, including the fluid check. I just stuck my arm under the vehicle to loosen and tighten the overflow plug (5mm hex), and used a few work lights to keep an eye on the fluid coming out. Below are a few pics of the repair:
transmission coolant lines old transmission fluid running from radiator to container. clear hose is connected to out port (driver's side) of at cooler line on radiator. Black hose runs to the transmission. Pump filled with new transmission fluid was connected to the black hose the container I used to catch the old AT oil flowing out. Lines on container represent 2qt increments (measured using digital scale and water). The chemical sprayer I used to add new transmission fluid to the vehicle through the black AT oil return hose. Contrary to the labels on the container, it is not water
A side note about this. Many of the guides i read here recommend draining the fluid between 115-130F. According to toyota / lexus L-SB-0023-09 (attached), the proper temp range for a AA80E transmission in the ls460 and gs460 is 95-108F. 115-130F is for the A761E transmissions in the ls430/sc430.
transmission temperature range that fluid should be checked at per vehicle
After performing the flush, i noticed that my shudder went away, but the hesitation on light acceleration was still there. I did more research and found that the service manual states that the ls460 has a "valve body oil strainer assembly" (picture attached).
ls460 transmission filter or valve body oil strainer assembly
I remember that the A650E transmissions in the ls400 and early ls430s used a wire mesh screen for the filters and (unless you had large particles in the transmission), did not need to be changed. I thought the same went for the ls460, but after reviewing resources here and a few pictures of the OE filter, I realized that it is more of a traditional filter, with sponge like media. I thought that could definitely get clogged over time and decided to change it.
I order a beck arnley replacement and replaced the filter and pan gasket last week. One surprise that I had was that the fluid was a dark muddy brown, despite the drain and fill and flush I did earlier. Not sure if that was from contamination from the filter that were loosened up or if the flush I did failed to replace all of the fluid. In the process, about 6qts came out (much was still left in the pan after draining, and some came out while removing the filter).
After the replacement, I noticed that the hesitation on light acceleration was gone. So it looks like my issue was caused by degraded transmission fluid. After looking at the service records for the vehicle, it looks like the original owner last changed the fluid at 99k miles on 07/2011, so it was well due for a change, despite the notion of it being lifetime fluid. I used the valvoline since the toyota fluid is actual petroleum (and the valvoline was only $18 / gallon, which helped since i went through about 8 gallons of it through this entire process). I would have allowed lexus do the flush for me, but they wanted $300 for the change, and they stated that it was at my own risk since the flush could make it worse.
In addition, I also found two calibration updates for the vehicle. One for the ECM (engine control module), another for the TCM (transmission control module). Techstream reported that my vehicle did not have these updates:
Techstream report showing that calibration updates (ECU, ECM, PCM) for my vehicle were available. ECT is Electronically Controlled Transmission.
I found it interesting that the same symptoms I experienced were also covered in TSB L-SB-0122-17 - Hesitation on Acceleration. This article suggests to check spark plugs for acceleration hesitation issue and recommends applying calibration ID: 35055500. TSB TC009-07 - HESITATION OR BUMP FEELING also discussed similar symptoms and suggests updating TCM (transmission control module) with new calibration ID: 895365001300. There were two other ECU calibrations available for my vehicle, but I decided not to pursue these since i was not experiencing any of the issues:
35036100 - EG014-07: 07 LS 460/460L: Engine Idle Knock Noise
895365001200 - TC004-07: 07 LS 460/460L: Brake Hold System Does Not Release Upon Acceleration
Fun fact: According to T-SB-0134-16 - Techstream ECU Flash Reprogramming Procedure:
I was in the middle of planning the ECU update when the service adviser I worked with during the vehicle inspection gave me a call. I told him about the updates for the vehicle and asked if the fee that i paid for the inspection $89 + tax, could be applied to get the ECU updates for my vehicle. Fortunately, there were nice enough to get this done for me this week. This did not resolve the rough idle, but it did resolve the fluctuating idle issue i had while at a stop. The engine speed now stays at 700 rpm when at a stop light. I'm planning on cleaning the spark plugs and checking if they are iridium sometime this weekend if I can get the time. If that does not fix the rough idle, then I'll replace the motor and transmission mounts.
NOTE: If you decide to tackle the ECU update on your own, I highly recommend reading T-SB-0134-16 and ensuring that your setup is completely stable to avoid bricking your ECU. If that happens, you would have to use a tool (ktag?) to recover the ECU, or send it off to a shop for repair. According to cardone (an ecu re-programmer manufacturer) and an ECU repair shop I spoke with, any trickle / maintenance charger should hold the battery voltage around 13 V once the battery is completely charged (though toyota recommends that you avoid using these). A jump starter connected across the battery could also be used. You would want at least 12.4 V measured across the battery (toyota recommends 12.4 - 14 V), and preferably nothing that quick charges. Ideally, a charger with a power supply mode should be used (the noco g7200 is an affordable one that can do this).
I also plan to lubricate the bushings and other suspension components with silicone oil or grease. According to the manufacturers of chemicals i spoke with (3M and CRC), silicone is recommended for rubber components and not lithium grease. Silicone will not collect dirt or grime and is water resistant (which i guess is important on a component constantly exposed to these elements). In addition, rubber does not fare well against petroleum, which may be another reason to use silicone oil or grease (I would imagine that toyota would have used a type of rubber that is resistant to petroleum for the mounts and suspension, but I don't know. However, silicone will prevent paint from adhering, so its normally recommended to use this in areas that will not be painted.
Lastly, 3 out of 4 of the wheels on my vehicle were missing a lug nut. It might be psychological, but it felt like adding the missing lug nuts and tightening to spec (103.3 ft lbs according to pg 613 of the 2007 ls460 owner's manual) reduced some of the shaking i had at high speeds. I know my tires are playing a big factor in the shake at high speed, but I'll replace all 4 after I check that my suspension is up to par first. 4 new tires, road force balance, and an alignment will hopefully fix the remaining shaking.
Original post:
Hello,
I have a 2007 ls460 L and have noticed that the vehicle intermittently does a rough shudder that feels like its coming from the rear whenever i perform light acceleration (vibration is loud and rough from the rear). it tends to happen the most around 30-40 mph and 70-80 mph. I got the vehicle inspected by the dealer and they stated that the transmission is failing. Since they work on the vehicles so often, more than likely, they are correct. However, I have had vehicles with transmission problems before, and I did not notice any flaring during acceleration which is associated with bad transmissions. In addition, the issue does not occur when accelerating using cruise control or with cruise control at all, only under light acceleration manually (with the pedal). In addition, i used two calculators (https://www.ringpinion.com/calculators/Calc_RPM.aspx and http://www.bgsoflex.com/rpmmph.html) to determine the correct engine speed for the vehicle with the given gear, drive, and wheel diameter, and the engine speed calculated here matches what i get when i drive the vehicle at the respective speeds below (this may not always be the case, but I have noticed failing transmissions tend to cause the engine speed to run a bit higher as a tell tale sign):
specs:
top gear (transmission) ratio 0.685
final drive (differential) ratio 2.94
tires 235/50 R 18 (27” diameter)
calculated rpm at 60: 1503
calculated rpm at 70: 1753
calculated rpm at 80: 2005
This could also be related, but the vehicle's motor and transmission mounts are bad, since the car vibrates at idle. I have noticed that when coming to a stop, the engine speed (rpms) fluctuate between 500-700 rpm. When around 500rpm, it idles rough and i feel vibration, but when it goes up to 700, it smooths out.
I tried changing the engine oil using a full synthetic (0w-20 mobil 1 extended performance) and the differential with a full synthetic as well. I think the oil helped a bit with the rough idle, but the intermittent shudder still occurs. The dealer stated that they can try a flush to fix it, though there is a risk (9/10) that it will make the issue worse.
Is this definitely a transmission issue that i should start saving up for to repair, or could this be caused by another underlying issue? I have read about the ECU updates for the vehicle, but the dealer stated that there was no open campaigns for my vehicle (its a 2007 RWD). I have the techstream adapter and could look into downloading any ECU updates if they do exist for this vehicle.
Best regards,
Mike
My 08 Ls460 seems to be having the same shuddering issues. Do you recommend a full tran flush or just a drain and fill with a new filter? Please let me know.
Thanks!
I remember that the A650E transmissions in the ls400 and early ls430s used a wire mesh screen for the filters and (unless you had large particles in the transmission), did not need to be changed. I thought the same went for the ls460, but after reviewing resources here and a few pictures of the OE filter, I realized that it is more of a traditional filter, with sponge like media. I thought that could definitely get clogged over time and decided to change it.
I order a beck arnley replacement and replaced the filter and pan gasket last week. One surprise that I had was that the fluid was a dark muddy brown, despite the drain and fill and flush I did earlier. Not sure if that was from contamination from the filter that were loosened up or if the flush I did failed to replace all of the fluid. In the process, about 6qts came out (much was still left in the pan after draining, and some came out while removing the filter).
Best regards,
Mike
Not sure if your still reading this but, I have been chasing down the EXACT same symptom. I followed the Trans reset by removing fuses and resetting the battery. After this, for about 5 miles, the car ran perfect. It's right in the range of 30-40 and 70-80 where it's bad.
Would you or anyone have part numbers for the filter and gasket? I might see if my Indy shop will do this job with my parts and fluids that I order (they are willing to do this for me)
Not sure if your still reading this but, I have been chasing down the EXACT same symptom. I followed the Trans reset by removing fuses and resetting the battery. After this, for about 5 miles, the car ran perfect. It's right in the range of 30-40 and 70-80 where it's bad.
Would you or anyone have part numbers for the filter and gasket? I might see if my Indy shop will do this job with my parts and fluids that I order (they are willing to do this for me)
----
Transmission filter part number: 35330-50030. I used BECK/ARNLEY filter Part No. 0440372 from RockAuto. It came with the transmission seal. The Beck/Arnley filter and seal looked exactly like OE filter and seal. Below is other transmission related information that may be useful for you.
Transmission pan drain plug gasket: 35178-30010 (drain plug part#: 9031110011,9034110011)
Transmission pan over flow plug gasket: 35178-30010 (same as drain plug gasket)
Transmission WS fill 24mm plug o-ring (gasket): 90301-15004; plug 90341-18059
Transmission pan part number: 35106-50050
Transmission Torques:
Overflow check plug (10mm hex): 15 ft lbf
Refill plug (24mm): 29 ft lbf
Drain plug (14mm): 15 ft lbf
Transmission pan bolts: 66 inch lbf (Note, inch, not foot)
Transmission filter: 8 ft lbf
----
02-12-18, 11:55 AM
ls460 shudder at 30/40 and 70/80 mph
