SW17LS

So this is a tough one. The LS is a much better car. Its better in every way, more substantial feeling, better riding, more solid, quieter, more powerful, interior is much higher quality. The LS just feels special while the ES feels like what it is, a very nice entry level FWD V6 car. The comparison posted above is of the new ES and new LS. The new LS is quite different from the LS460, V6 power which lack's the V8s refinement, the car is much firmer and sportier riding. Having driven the LS500 and the new 19 ES350 I would agree more than I would comparing an LS460 to an outgoing generation ES350.

Now, with that said I am a new car guy. I prefer new cars to used cars, so honestly I would probably choose the ES, but that would be the only reason. How the cars were treated makes a big difference, you have to take the time to find a CPO LS that has been well cared for. I've driven some CPO/used ones that are pretty ragged.

So having owned the L and the SWB car, I would absolutely recommend the L every time.

Now, when looking used you have to take condition/features/etc into consideration but all things being equal, the LWB rides better, has more space, looks more impressive. Quieter with laminated acoustic windows also in the rear, etc.

cstone3636

Guys thanks for all the comments. I been too busy enjoying the 2019 ES350 I got over the weekend. Couldn't pass the deal up and drove to NC from Ohio on Saturday. The car is ridiculously improved not that the 14 and 16 Ultra's I had weren't nice but once you drive one you'll understand what I'm talking about. I"m not talking about driving it around the block either. I've had numerous people who have been around other luxury cars, etc say this is the smoothest, quietest car they've been in yet. Again everyone has an opinion and favorite car but I am overly impressed with this one dollar for dollar.






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SW17LS

Congrats! They're a lot of car for the money no doubt.

mikesrx350

great purchase, interesting reading all the comments about the ls460 being superior

i would buy a ls460
if it didn't look like an 70 year old's design exterior
if it had a real looking nav system with a screen that looks 10 years old with a graphical interface thats comical
if it wasn't 4600 pounds

so we all know you can beat a suspension and rwd ls vs a new es

but i am 50 not 70 and want to feel like im 40 driving and be modern with technology
so drive both and if front wheel drive and the way the es feels is close to the Ls then determine for yourself
there are too many including my own opinions that get caught up in what's best
like gas, i feel a huge difference using shell premium especially in my wife's turbo six, vs other gas and its a never ending conversation

point being there both great cars buy what inspires you not what others view as best with skewed glasses

cstone3636

You make some great points mikesrx350. I really didn't need all the room that the LS provides quite honestly. The ES works out great for my wife and I since Jr is off to college now. The 500 plus mile ride back through the mountains and I averaged 34.7 mpg on regular gas. Can't beat that for a car that was rated for 33 mph with a 302 horse V-6 engine. As Steve said, it's a lot of car for the money. I have no doubts that the new LS500 is a great car but it just would have been a little more than I needed for the money. I drive fast for a living so when I'm off duty I prefer a smooth quiet ride along with a nice radio and thats exactly what I get with this car and Lexus in general.

SW17LS

Why is it interesting? The LS is twice the money as the ES, of course its superior. And...this is the LS460 forum.

Nav system is very similar to whats in the new ES, same resolution graphical interface. The ES is the new gen system sure but the look and feel of the system aren't very different at all.

LS:



ES:






Its a full sized luxury car lol, they're all 4,500+ lbs. Thats part of what makes them feel the way they feel. If you don't want a car thats 4.600 lbs you don't want any full sized luxury car.

An ES is going to make you feel 40? The average ES owner age is like 68.

Then why are we even participating in a Lexus forum. He asked our opinions and we gave them. Whats the issue?

Bottom line is everything the ES does, the LS does better by design. They're the same sort of comfort oriented cruiser, and of course the LS is better its twice as much money. To say that an ES is a better car than an LS is just silly. Can you say its a better car for the money? Thats a position that may have merit, but a better car in general? No.

UDel

You can say the same thing about a S class, A8, or 7 series looking like a 70 year olds design/car, you know why, because it is normally only 70 year olds or around that age who can afford those types of cars. Younger people like the designs too, they normally just can't afford them which is why they get the lower end smaller cars. I think the S class and 7 series have always looked better then the 3, 5 series, C and E class.

Who cares what the NAV system looks like, most people know how to get around without constantly staring at their nav screen for directions, it is just a small part of the entire vehicle.

Big cars with lots of luxury are heavy.

If you want to look like your 40 you would get a RC coupe, IS, or GS, not a ES where the avg age is more in the mid to late 60's or 70's.

I really considered a LS460, I am not older or the demographic to be driving them and was somewhat concerned about a older man image because that is all I see driving them but it still didn't stop me plus some younger CL members have them, I would have loved a LS460 if it was reliable, I still kind of want one. I ended up getting a GS350 because I found a great deal on one that was not too far away, it was just about the exact combo I wanted, and I got tired of looking and not finding anything for so long. I don't regret getting the GS, I love it, its not perfect but its a great car, I am sure your ES is a great car too but I don't think knocking the LS or its older image is really necessary, a ES is not exactly considered a younger mans sedan either.

Johnhw2

. I have owned both in last 5 years. Lexus nameplate is about the only thing similar in my view. The LS is so far above the ES it every way its not close. If the ES is a 5 in your experience LS is a 15.

ES feels like a Toyota to me in how it drives etc, LS feels like the luxury car it is.

mikesrx350

Love the passion guys, thats what makes the car enthusiast special,

I agree its a forum and thats why a great conversation.

It doesn't change the fact,
that the LS is an amazing vehicle but the time has come with time changes in the consumer, society and efficiency that it is a car of the past

It doesn't visually appeal to me
It isn't efficient for me compared to competition (the ES is not much better 26 combined)
I think the nav system of 2012 and earlier are comical
I think the mouse is ridiculous
and it is bloated and to me looks like an old mans car

now that being said it is
one of the best autos ever made
is an amazing highway cruiser
is very comfortable from the drivers seat
has best in class reliability vs others

but lexus has stepped up with the new ES, I read some of the responses when others drove the car and felt they were skewed.
the new es looks great
Rides 85-90% as well as a 14 LS460
gets 10% better gas mileage
has a great driving position
handles better than the ls
will have lower operating costs with the v6 for parts down the road
is extremely safe with lexus 2.0 architecture
has new technology with rigidity and new aluminum and steel in areas that can absorb impact
has the f sport if someone wants spirited handling which the ls can't match
has upgraded controller over the mouse that is horrible
and a price point that most can afford

does have no awd yet and will have will spin w fwd which is an issue for me
has fwd understeer almost non existent but still an issue for me
and i still feel the v6 needs a little more juice if i will be satisfied long term

so buyer read the forum, enjoy the forum, but comparing a long wheel base 460 l to the new es isn't apples to apples comparison
and there are probably 10 L's for sale in the country would be challenging.
for 80% of buyers they won't know the difference between fwd and rwd and that is what Lexus wanted to accomplish

appeal to a younger buyer
appeal to the masses with a high quality, high value product
and leverage the reliability and lexus service network to make this a home run sales achiever for Lexus
Bravo Lexus for stepping up the game where we are having a conversation that almost eliminates the mind set of Front wheel drive is not even plausible for the enthusiast

you achieved a major achievement BRAVO!

SW17LS

This is the truth. Thats not a bad thing, the ES drives very well and rides very well but it doesn't have that special, really solid high quality feeling that better Lexus models have (the GS has this as well as the LS). You don't really understand that until you own both, and thats why going from the LS or GS back to the ES is really difficult (I did it, wouldnt again).

There is an all new LS out, the LS460 is the outgoing model. Thats the question that confronts you as a buyer, do you buy a new lesser model, or do you buy an older better model for the same money that has the better quality driving experience but lacks the newer technology. Thats a hard choice, and I was confronted with that choice each time I purchased an ES, and ultimately I chose the ES knowing very well the quality and experience I was giving up to get the newer tech but mainly to get a new car vs a used car. So, I understand that.

We aren't talking about models 2012 and earlier. He specifically mentioned in the title 13-15 LS460s. In any event...again the systems are not much different, and visually are not much different at all. In the 07-09 LS they're pretty different, but not the 10-12.

New ES has the same controller, its just a laptop style mouse instead of a pad mouse.

It is an old mans car, but so is the ES.

They have stepped up their game with the new ES, but they have not surpassed the outgoing LS460 in any area but technology. I've driven the new ES, it doesn't feel anywhere as solid, refined or as detached from the road as the LS460. It feels like a much better ES, but doesn't feel like an LS. Interior material quality on the new ES is way below the LS460, hard plastics on the doors, dash, console, leather and seat quality...understandable given the price difference.

It looks okay. It has a huge overhang in the front, and the rear IMHO has some weird lines. Overall I think the refresh 16-18 ES is a better looking car, and I definitely think both the LS460 and the new LS500 are better looking cars.

I would say 80-85% as well, especially if we're talking about an LS460L with the . However, that additional 15-20% has a huge impact on the overall feel of the car.

If you're worried about gas mileage no full sized luxury car is for you.

No different from any FWD sedan.

Eh, I wouldnt say that. Its a really nose heavy softly sprung FWD car. It may feel more nimble because its lighter and on a newer chassis, but if you really put both through their paces and recorded the result my guess is you would find this isn't the case.

Sure, cheaper things have lower operating costs, and better things often have higher initial costs and operating costs also.

So is the LS.

The LS has had an F sport since 2013.

In practice it works the same way.

Better things usually cost more. The attainability factor of an LS is part of its appeal.

The new LS500 does this also, and still is superior to the ES in all the ways the LS460 is/was.

The ES is an entry level product and the LS is the flagship. Like I said, to say the ES is better is silly. There can be many reasons to chose the ES, and like I said I did so in my life, twice. I drove the ES for 10 years because thats what I could afford and what I was comfortable with. However, I never was under the illusion that I was buying a "better" car. Better *for me* at the time, sure. When I bought the 2003, what I was looking at was a 1999 or 2000 LS400. What I would have given up was the ability to lease, and the navigation which was huge for me. So, I chose the ES, but all you had to do was drive a 99 or 00 LS400 to know that as a car it was better. In 2010 when I got the ES350 the comparison was to a 2006 LS430 (the 07 LS460s were still a lot more), and the tradeoff was a much older feeling navigation interface with dramatically less graphics, no BT audio and no apps, etc which the ES had, and again no lease. So I chose the ES again, but all you had to do was drive that 4 year old LS430 to know it was a better car. Same is the case with the 19 ES350 and a 13-17 LS460.

cstone3636

Wow, that was an entertaining read gents. It goes without saying I think that a 95K to 100K car is going to be better than a 50K car when both are purchased new. To say otherwise you would be trying to deceive yourself. Ha. This is an LS forum and with that I got the opinions of those who owned or have owned one when I was thinking about going that way and thats all I was interested in. I made my decision based on what I wanted now with how much money I wanted to spend now and I'm happy with my choice. I will continue to enjoy the LS forum as much as the ES forum because in the end we all win when Lexus continues to improve its products each year. Enjoy the weekend everyone and thanks again for the comments.

sha4000

iTrader: (1)

Congrats on the purchase. Th ES has come a long way. I remember how ugly the ES 250 was and could not figure out why Lexus even made that car.

Johnhw2

Another way to come at this. I would take a few other cars over the ES. A two or three year old Q70 hammers it, or go Q70L with the V8 and you are closer to the LS than the ES in my view. Id have to be convinced the ES can beat the Toyota Avalon. I prefer a V8 by miles to a 6. I like old people cars if that is what these are....

Enjoy your ES, its not for me, been there done that once never ever again.

cstone3636

Yessir I will thanks, I already went down the Infiniti road as well but with the M series. Wasn't impressed and got rid of it as soon as I could......I"ll stick with Lexus

Johnhw2

The Q70 is just the M series renamed so you know the series I referenced. Good luck.