Shintsu

Long time admirer of the LS line, I've seen so many with high miles that I have a great respect for this car and those who buy them. But I'm less than half the typical demographic age for this cars typical buyer. I looked at an LS430 years ago and really liked it, though now those cars seem far too dated to satisfy me. I looked at an '08 LS460 AWD maybe 2 years ago and while it seemed nice, it just seemed a bit...bleh to me. Yes, I have been looking at examples right at about 100-120k miles with full service history. Acceleration felt very ho hum and the shifts dreadfully slow like a Lincoln Town Car.

Fast forward to the other day, I just looked at a 2011. I know it's still not the '13+ refresh but this had immense service history and did not have the air ride which I know is a good thing for longevity. Again, I noticed some of the same complaints I had about the '08 I looked at. I read the intense process that Lexus uses on the production of these cars, yet honestly these 460's I have drove just feel incredibly bland. Don't get me wrong, they are nice but most I've found are lacking quite a few features and still carried an immense sticker price so I'm trying to figure out what on earth cost so much to make. Feels like a rude comparison to make, but I think Crown Vics as spartan as they are ride satisfyingly despite far less sophistication.

About a year ago I looked at a 2011 Audi A8 with the 4.2L V8. That car blew me away. It was more isolated and quiet than the LS, the ZF8 speed shifts wonderfully, the car had such a rich leather smell like a leather recliner store, it felt quicker and more nimble. Honestly, I loved everything about it but the reliability aspect was my concern and to get it with a warranty from Carmax (who had it for sale) the price was nearly $40k for this used example with around 50k miles. That seemed far too high so I passed, but I'm wondering do I just need to look at '13+ LS to get anywhere close? I think the LS is such a good car, so I'm wondering if it's just me and not the car. I like big cruiser cars, but I do like tech and style and the combo of brushed aluminum everywhere in the A8 plus the wood accents and the flip up screen just set it over the top for me while I find the '07-'12 LS to be honestly just "adequate". It does not help that I have a 2018 Golf R which dwarfs the technical features of these older LS that I think is ruining my impression of them. Plus honestly I expected the Mark Levinson system to be great and yet the Fender system in my Golf honestly sounds better, which just amazes me that the ML system didn't sound any better.

Did the transmission ever get any updates or changed, or did that not happen until the LS500? Honestly, years ago I had a 1998 Cadillac DeVille, right at 100k miles and very clean. I found that rode better than the 460 as far as isolation from the road and pure smoothness. And somehow, that Northstar seemed more powerful? I'm not saying it was, mine was 275 HP and I know the AWD 460 is 367 HP, plus Northstars are ticking time bombs (why I sold mine while it was still running perfectly). But that car really rocketed off and when I was rolling on the highway it felt very stout, and as terrible as old 4 speeds are it just shifted so quickly without that mush between gear changes. Am I just finding non-perfect examples of the 460 or is this really just what the car is? I haven't looked at an L and wondering if the lengthened wheel base might help with an even more pillowy ride, though that won't do anything for the lazy shifts from the transmission.

DedBirdDog

For whatever reason, Lexus does not option its flagship vehicle the way I think they should. Find a 13+ with the Ultra Luxury package and see what you think The hard part is actually finding one. I suspect less than 10% of production is so equipped. I also have a 2018 CT6 Premium Luxury in addition to my 2013 LS460 U/L. From strictly a tech standpoint, the CT6 is light years ahead Like you I considered the Audi in A8L trim but reliability concerns were more of a risk than I was willing to take

Shintsu

Looking at the package options, that looks like what I'd want for features. I currently have auto highbeam control, adaptive cruise, pre-colision braking, blindspot monitoring, cross traffic alert, and my rear backup camera has the guide lines (was surprised to see none on the '11). However, the more I think on it I did not like the way the transmission shifts. Did they ever change it or anything about how it shifts, or is that Aisin 8 speed the only thing they used and never tweaked it? I'm sure the typical buyer doesn't mind those soft mushy shifts but I cringe when I hear that, I like rapid firm shifts (My VW is a DSG dual clutch if that's any indication). If the engine and transmission are no different in the newer 460's and the A8 is such a nightmare, I just think I'll have to stop considering any cars in this category. Truly I think the A8 and maybe the 7-series offer what I want out of this kind of car, but nothing else seems to come close in the mix of executive/comfortable as well as sporty combined with an exterior and interior I genuinely find attractive looking. I mean the A8 4.0T does 0-60 in 4 seconds flat and that's not even the S variant...

DedBirdDog

Driven in Sport+ mode, I find the transmission shifts in my LS to be crisp and sure. And that's in a car with 146k on the clock. If you soft-pedal it in Eco or Comfort mode the shifts seem more relaxed Honestly, the transmission feels like it's built to last forever in this car.

RR601

I understand some about what you are saying. I also found the car just a little boring to drive. Only one I would get was the one with the sport package. Just enough difference to make it a little more enjoyable to drive. Mine is a 2011 and I have not driven the newer model yet to compare. Dont like the grill. And expect mine to last a long time.
The sport model does have the air suspension. But still should be more reliable and cheaper to own than the competition. I do like the way the others drive a little better. But not going to pay so much more when you add in the maintenance cost. And my time running to a service department once a month to fix something.
I am the type that will find it bad enough if I ever have to take mine in morethan once a year when I do the state inspection and oil change.
Also my wife still drives a 2003 4runner that looks and runs like new. (garage kept only 74K miles). But still 16 years old. Only had to take it somewhere a few times morethan once a year. And that is because I dont buy tires from the dealer.

If I was you I would still test drive the 2012 + models and see. Will still be much cheaper than buying anything else if you add in the maintenance cost.

Shintsu

I just don't know how overblown the reliability is on the German makes. Before buying a VW and since I've also looked at what is required on a BMW 5-series, it requires you to be a bit more proactive with maintenance but unless you buy specifically troublesome models they don't seem that bad. Sadly the high performance versions seem most prone to issues, probably due to how they get driven and the highest tolerances vs. the lower performance motors. E.g. Mercedes E350 seem genuinely reliable, E550 a little less so, and E63 even less so than that (head bolt issues). Audi seems a bit better than BMW and Mercedes for reasonable repair costs, but I just don't really know. German cars seem to be polarizing in that you either think they're great or they're terrible.

FWIW, people are religious about maintenance on Lexus despite the reliability. I think if a German car is treated with the same reverence for the maintenance they seem fine. But since you do have a mixture of people who assume German is so good it doesn't require that (from having had Japanese or American cars) or those who lease them and don't care what happens to it later on in life, you do have to be more cautious that the one you buy is one the person genuinely cared for. Really, it seems like the same process people follow for Lexus just the potential if you make a mistake on the German car is higher dollar repairs.

I mean the lowliest A8 is faster than the LS460 and there's always the S8 as well. My expectations get set so high from hearing all the talk of engineering on the LS but if I'm blunt it doesn't seem any more highly engineered or smooth running than many other far less prestigious cars I've looked at. Think I might just wait until I see another A8 at Carmax and see about that extended warranty, I just honestly feel like it's more special. I'm acutely aware of the regular care and servicing of German makes, so I think knowing this will make it an easier pill to swallow than wanting a car you can just ignore maintenance items and still be ok on. I'd rather a few more regular maintenance trips and a car I am excited to drive than one which will be maintenance free comparatively but just bland and uneventful to drive. If I was that kind of person, I wouldn't have had the kind of performance cars I've had and still do have.

sha4000

iTrader: (1)

No one can convince you to like the 460 since you already drove 2 and were clearly not impressed. What can we offer that's better than your first hand experience? I like the pillowy ride and those shifts get on my nerves every time the tranny holds the gear too long. All the years that I have owned an LS I can count on 1 hand where I've seen ANYONE driving these cars really pushing it down the road. I'm a really spirited driver so I can recognize the type when I see them which is usually in my rear view trying to catch me because they think I want to race when I'm actually minding my business going to/from work.

The A8 as well as the 550 are beautiful cars and Lexus always seems to be a step behind in the tech department but I guess that's the compromise when the same year MB or A8 costs 10k more than the LS. Now if that tech upgrade and quicker shifts are worth 10k to YOU as well as the warranty and reliability issues than get those other cars. The LS has it's own issues but are much less prone to have issues especially electrical ones which the German cars are known for. All that tech comes with a price other than money. At the end of the day I stay with the LS for it's outstanding reliability and if something does go wrong I have my repair manuals so I can work on them myself which sometimes you can't do with the germans.

dlbuckls10

The MB550, Audi A8, and even the BMW 5 & 7 series are just more fun to drive

sha4000

iTrader: (1)

What constitutes fun? When I'm coming down the highway I fly by all of the above models and they are either driving the speed limit or 5 miles above. Sometimes a BMW will try to fall in behind but they never have the nerve to sustain the high rates of speed for long periods of time. Of course there are drivers of these cars that like to push them down long twisty country roads but most don't ever get over 2k rpms. I like speed but don't care for the so called road feel of a car so the LS fits me perfectly. I'm sure those cars have lots of power and tighter suspension but what does that really mean in the real world? I can take a curve on the highway at 80 mph which I do regularly and I get a little more lean than a BMW but so what.

IMXCITD

iTrader: (1)

Maybe a drive in an LS-F after the refresh....13 or 14? That might be just what you are looking for....I have the same concern about German cars....I can't bring myself to own one and spring for maint and repairs.

Dave144239

+1 on that. I used to daily drive a Honda S2000, so I know what a sporty ride is. Right now, what I want is a luxurious cruiser that will eat up the miles, and the LS does a great job at that.

Doublebase

Shintsu

I mean on a checklist of features that LS460 checked like 3 things my VW did not have (cooled seats, power trunk, and soft close doors - which I'd never have a use for), by comparison I have about 6 things it did not have (adaptive cruise, lane keep, blind spot, cross traffic alert, forward collision assist, in-dash navigation as well as in the head unit). DSGs are a bit jerky on take off, but the 460 feels way way too far on the other spectrum. The Aisin 8 speed looks to be on all of them until the LS500 so I think I can probably safely rule all of the 460s out. Honestly on comfort, my Golf as small as it may be rides pretty good on its softest setting and is very nimble on its most racy setting. Not as good as the 460 for comfort, but then again my Golf does not evoke the malaise feeling the 460 did for me. In theory that leaves the only one as the LS600h, I'm not a typical fan of CVTs but given the shifts on the 460 I think I'd find the CVT preferable. But OTOH, don't the 600's add some complications to the reliability along with being rare? I'll concede to top trim 460's or the 600's being ahead of their time, but vanilla 460's with only a few options really don't seem that impressive feature wise not that I'm sure the typical buyer cares about those things.

I think I just reaffirmed how much my Golf R is the car for me and there's nothing else that comes close. There isn't a single Lexus I'd trade my R for, but then again I'm much younger than the demographic average age for most Lexus buyers so I think there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I still like Lexus, but until proven otherwise I much prefer the look, feel, and drive of German cars. The LS500 looks nicer to me, though I'm not crazy about a six cylinder in a full size luxury car. Even less would I actually spend the coin needed for one, I'd just shift up to an Audi RS3 or more in the comfort category and E63S AMG Wagon.

Doublebase

mbarron37