Audi A8L versus LS460L
01-21-21, 10:44 AM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
I think Lexus chooses to be 1 step below the German luxury line. Anyone that is well off financially and can truly afford cars nearing $100K would rather go for something German. They tend lease these vehicle and get the newest one out every few years.
I don't think it would have made much of a difference is sales if Lexus put the 5.0 V8 in the LS500 and it pushed close to 500 hp. It would still be perceived as a glorified Toyota just as the Genesis G90 is just a Hyundai and that has a 5.0 V8 engine. Lexus has accepted being in a class same with Acura, Infiniti, Genesis and Cadillac
I don't think it would have made much of a difference is sales if Lexus put the 5.0 V8 in the LS500 and it pushed close to 500 hp. It would still be perceived as a glorified Toyota just as the Genesis G90 is just a Hyundai and that has a 5.0 V8 engine. Lexus has accepted being in a class same with Acura, Infiniti, Genesis and Cadillac
The D4 2017 Gen A8 that came out in 2010 is newer then the LS460 that came out in 2006 where they kept the same basic layout, engine, chassis, design until 2017/2018. The D3 A8 was in most ways nicer then the LS460 especially interior design wise, A8's and other German flagships have generally always been a step above the LS, not a huge one but seen as more prestigious and priced that way. Despite the D3 and D4 A8's being nicer then the LS they never sold very well, at least in the US where the LS430/LS460 sold well, at least the LS460 sold well its first 4 or so years.
I always liked A8's, I thought they looked better and had nicer interiors then their competitors until the current one which I think is horrible and poor sales reflect that. I wish they were more reliable, I would likely have one if they were more reliable but owning them just seems to be a nightmare and something you need a good long warranty to try to offset the cost/issues.
01-21-21, 10:48 AM
#17
Intermediate
Thread Starter
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01-21-21, 10:57 AM
#18
Pole Position
German cars over the long haul without a warranty are a financial disaster. The depreciation is bad enough. I can't imagine staring down the barrel of a $10-15K repair bill. Lexus still builds its cars for 300k miles if they're well-maintained. I don't think that's the case with Audi, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz.
01-21-21, 11:12 AM
#19
Intermediate
Thread Starter
You're not seeing those failures on the 2013+ cars to any measurable degree. Personally, when you buy a 2007-2010 LS, you ought to know what you're getting into. Even the most cursory research reveals it.
01-21-21, 11:36 AM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
The LS430 and LS460 when they came out both really challenged the Germans at their level, and their sales relative to the Germans reflected that.
01-22-21, 07:46 AM
#21
Driver
I buy and drive used Lexus LS sedans because they provide reliable low cost transportation in comparison to their European peers and they provide good value,
We have had both German makes. Lexus are drama free and avoid the German service experience.
I think this discussion may be more geared to younger Lexus owners who desire the latest electronics and performance. I just want a car that is reliable comfortable and has the modern safety features.
Regarding performance, why bother? Speeding fines and insurance rates are a disincentive. On the Interstate 8 over is just fine.
I am a senior and we still ride fast motorcycles (including one in Europe) that for me are far more fun to ride well on a winding road than any luxury sedan.
Ask yourself this would you rather ride this road on a motorcycle or sitting in a luxury sedan?
Sorry about the sound youtube took down the music
We have had both German makes. Lexus are drama free and avoid the German service experience.
I think this discussion may be more geared to younger Lexus owners who desire the latest electronics and performance. I just want a car that is reliable comfortable and has the modern safety features.
Regarding performance, why bother? Speeding fines and insurance rates are a disincentive. On the Interstate 8 over is just fine.
I am a senior and we still ride fast motorcycles (including one in Europe) that for me are far more fun to ride well on a winding road than any luxury sedan.
Ask yourself this would you rather ride this road on a motorcycle or sitting in a luxury sedan?
Sorry about the sound youtube took down the music
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baam (01-23-21)
01-22-21, 08:03 AM
#22
Intermediate
Thread Starter
I'm 53, so I'm more "senior" than younger. I ride my Harley quite often, averaging 10k miles a year. There is no better way to travel and tour than by motorcycle. That said, here in Appalachia, weather takes that option away for 4+ months a year. And having two deer v. motorcycle crashes here, riding at certain times is a perilous activity. Performance luxury cars are wonderful. Lexus simply has not kept up. From a tech and performance standpoint, the 460 isn't much different than the 430 of 15 years ago. Just a better wrapper.
01-22-21, 10:19 AM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
So believe it or not, my insurance went down from what I was paying for the LS460 when I got my S560. As for performance, why not? Performance is fun. My issue with the 3.5L TTV6 in the LS500 isn't performance, its refinement and feel. I want a V8. The power isn't about speed, but its really great to have all of that effortless power just in normal everyday driving.
If you can have all the luxury and comfort of the LS in a vehicle that also can deliver great performance and an adaptive suspension that makes it more rewarding to drive on a twisty road, who wouldn't want that? The point is Lexus should have replaced the LS460 with a car that accomplishes all of that.
If you can have all the luxury and comfort of the LS in a vehicle that also can deliver great performance and an adaptive suspension that makes it more rewarding to drive on a twisty road, who wouldn't want that? The point is Lexus should have replaced the LS460 with a car that accomplishes all of that.
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01-22-21, 02:50 PM
#24
The LS460 has very little to do with the preceeding LS430, at least from a tech perspective. Better is subjective, but it certainly is different.
As for vehicles from the big three, MB is still the best reliability-wise.
I absolutely agree about the performance - you don't need to be breaking limits in order to make good use of it. Acceleration on a dime, constant low revs, smooth, big reserve, etc, etc... On the other hand, performance and driving pleasure/challenge/reward/etc are absolutely not linked. The lower the limits of the vehicle, the better you can enjoy it in public without getting yourself in trouble. You can have both, but it's always a compromise... and it can get very, very expensive (way beyond those sticker prices) if you actively pursue it
As for vehicles from the big three, MB is still the best reliability-wise.
I absolutely agree about the performance - you don't need to be breaking limits in order to make good use of it. Acceleration on a dime, constant low revs, smooth, big reserve, etc, etc... On the other hand, performance and driving pleasure/challenge/reward/etc are absolutely not linked. The lower the limits of the vehicle, the better you can enjoy it in public without getting yourself in trouble. You can have both, but it's always a compromise... and it can get very, very expensive (way beyond those sticker prices) if you actively pursue it
01-23-21, 01:06 AM
#25
Lexus Champion
You should drive the new D5 A8....huge improvement over that 2017. I dont care for the looks of it (I prefer the D4 you drove) or I very seriously might have gotten that.
The LS460 is a fabulous car, it really does hold its own with the modern flagship cars, but I get bored of cars after time and I had an LS460 for 5.5 years (I had two) and it was time for something different. The LS500 would have scratched that itch if they hadnt strayed from the LS recipe so much. Driving the LS500 and then driving the A8, S Class, 7 Series and even the G90 just shows you that the LS500 really isnt a peer of those cars any longer...so when you move on from the 460 you really have to leave the brand.
The LS460 holds up in the ride and quietness department, but the newer german cars blow it away with performance, technology, features, etc. I mean...a BMW 750 does 0-60 in under 4 seconds AND rides as nice and as quietly as an LS460L. My S Class is 4.4 seconds, a V8 A8L is similar. When you put the hammer down these things are silly fast. Their suspensions are also more sophisticated so you get more duality. For instance when my S560 is in Sport Mode it feels like a different car where on the LS those changes are very subtle. My S Class feels better at highway speeds than my LS, it feels more solid and doesnt float around like the LS did, ride at all other times is very similar, noise at speed is very similar, engine is quieter and more refined. The big difference is in the performance, tech and features. I love the seat massage, the cabin fragrance, all the configurable displays, the extreme attention to detail (one of my favorite examples is the sunglasses holder is lighted inside. Why?!? lol, the self driving is amazing.
So, for reliability. Having spent a lot of time on forums for these cars, the S Class is really just as reliable as the LS460. There really arent any serious issues, and there doesnt seem to be anything like the control arms or brake actuator or any really common thing. BMW the issue you have is with the V8 engines (and you gotta get the V8), that V8 engine design is notorious for issues as they get older. The A8 also seems pretty solid, there arent a lot of real common issues on the D4 forums (D5 is still too new). The issue is that if things DO go wrong, just anybody cant work on them like they can with the LS460. Makes repairs more expensive.
The main concern IMO about long term reliability is all the electronics. Although, you dont see issues there on the forums. Having done that research, I think of the 3 german cars the one to buy and keep long term would be the S Class, followed by the A8 then the 7. If you got a I6 740i then I think the 7 would be fine too but thats no fun.
None of this is a dig against the LS460, its a dig against how Lexus just hasnt kept up with its successor. Another thing to consider is that these german cars equipped this way are a lot more expensive new, my S560 for instance was $34,000 more than my LS460L...thats a lot...so you would expect them to be better. V8 A8L is about $115k well equipped, 750 is about $118k well equipped, my S560 was $123k. My LS460L was $89k, a similar LS500 would be like $93k. Big difference.
The LS460 is a fabulous car, it really does hold its own with the modern flagship cars, but I get bored of cars after time and I had an LS460 for 5.5 years (I had two) and it was time for something different. The LS500 would have scratched that itch if they hadnt strayed from the LS recipe so much. Driving the LS500 and then driving the A8, S Class, 7 Series and even the G90 just shows you that the LS500 really isnt a peer of those cars any longer...so when you move on from the 460 you really have to leave the brand.
The LS460 holds up in the ride and quietness department, but the newer german cars blow it away with performance, technology, features, etc. I mean...a BMW 750 does 0-60 in under 4 seconds AND rides as nice and as quietly as an LS460L. My S Class is 4.4 seconds, a V8 A8L is similar. When you put the hammer down these things are silly fast. Their suspensions are also more sophisticated so you get more duality. For instance when my S560 is in Sport Mode it feels like a different car where on the LS those changes are very subtle. My S Class feels better at highway speeds than my LS, it feels more solid and doesnt float around like the LS did, ride at all other times is very similar, noise at speed is very similar, engine is quieter and more refined. The big difference is in the performance, tech and features. I love the seat massage, the cabin fragrance, all the configurable displays, the extreme attention to detail (one of my favorite examples is the sunglasses holder is lighted inside. Why?!? lol, the self driving is amazing.
So, for reliability. Having spent a lot of time on forums for these cars, the S Class is really just as reliable as the LS460. There really arent any serious issues, and there doesnt seem to be anything like the control arms or brake actuator or any really common thing. BMW the issue you have is with the V8 engines (and you gotta get the V8), that V8 engine design is notorious for issues as they get older. The A8 also seems pretty solid, there arent a lot of real common issues on the D4 forums (D5 is still too new). The issue is that if things DO go wrong, just anybody cant work on them like they can with the LS460. Makes repairs more expensive.
The main concern IMO about long term reliability is all the electronics. Although, you dont see issues there on the forums. Having done that research, I think of the 3 german cars the one to buy and keep long term would be the S Class, followed by the A8 then the 7. If you got a I6 740i then I think the 7 would be fine too but thats no fun.
None of this is a dig against the LS460, its a dig against how Lexus just hasnt kept up with its successor. Another thing to consider is that these german cars equipped this way are a lot more expensive new, my S560 for instance was $34,000 more than my LS460L...thats a lot...so you would expect them to be better. V8 A8L is about $115k well equipped, 750 is about $118k well equipped, my S560 was $123k. My LS460L was $89k, a similar LS500 would be like $93k. Big difference.
01-23-21, 06:28 AM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
People on the BMW forums actively avoid the V8 for long term in the 7 and in the X7 and X5 for that reason, as much as they agree the V8 is awesome.
02-24-21, 06:52 PM
#27
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Well, what seems to be the perfect A8L showed up for me this morning. A CPO 2017 with every option including the sport diff and night vision with only 15k on the odo. Unless something goes sideways with the deal tomorrow, I'll be out of the Lexus ownership club. I hope this decision to forego rock-solid reliability for performance and better tech doesn't bite me in the ***, but here it is. It's been a good ride with you guys during the ownership of both of my LS460's. I'll try and check in from time to time. Wish me luck!
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sha4000 (02-24-21)
02-24-21, 07:01 PM
#28
Good luck and best wishes to you, DedBirdDog. You've been a valued member here and will be missed.
02-24-21, 08:24 PM
#29
Driver School Candidate
I owned a 2013 Audi A8 4.0TT Swb from 63k miles to 101k miles. Its the cheapest power you can get and comes in a wonderful package. The D4 A8 is light years ahead of the the LS460. The turbo problems of it blowing is no issue. I wrench on my own stuff. At 73k miles, I pulled the turbos and they had some slop in it. That was no issue, and within spending $2k, I had bigger turbos the size of the S8/RS7 ones. Then I spent another $2500 tune and downpipes and I was making 625+ hp. The issue of the turbos is simply from a 50 cent oil filter starving the turbos. The 8 speed ZF is far better than the Aisin 8 speed. The V8 TT A8 is a spaceship compared to the LS460, and the LS460 should be more compared to the V6 supercharged one that is cheaper.
Reliability wise, A8 and LS460 is on par. The engine bay in the A8 allows for ample space to work because its a hot V turbo small v8 engine in a space where a 6L W12 engine fit. The LS460 is quieter and more insulated from the road, but then again I always had Michelin PS4s on the A8. The interior creaks slightly more in the A8 when pushing on panels but the A8 is better in every way. I was very happy with ownership of my A8 and also reliability and ease of fixing. However, I do understand not everyone is able to work on their own cars, so the A8 ownership might be very different for someone else. The turbos are extremely easy to replace and also are only about $1600 for them if you don't go OEM.
So why did I go into the LS460, insurance was half of what the A8 was. I wanted something different too after driving it 40k miles. And for the price I picked up my 2008 LS460 with a mint interior, I couldn't say no. Your mileage may vary with A8 ownership, since I work on my own stuff and have the Audi diagnostic tool. What I didn't like was the radar sensors had to be realigned by the dealer every time the car changed alignment. Overall, I found the A8 relatively cheap to run, and also the most cheap car I've ever had for the power and performance. I was outrunning SRT Challengers and Hellcats with it for something that was reliable and pretty cheap to get there in power, all while in levels of comfort that are on par or exceed the LS460. Another thing I can think of on top of my head is that the ML audio blows the Bose base sound system in the A8 out of the water.
Really, with what I've seen of the brake actuator, and control arm issues on this board, the LS460 is in the same area of running costs/repair of flagship S-class/A8/7 series. I'm a bit saddened that Lexus is a far bit behind in their flagship sedan offerings unless they're cooking up a V8TT that is being rumored at the moment. THe LS460 and also the LS500 can't touch any the current V8TT offerings of Audi, but rather a better comparison is the cheaper V6 supercharged motor they offer.
If you want a relatively reliable rocket right now for under $25k on the road done with 600hp+, D4 A8 is the answer.
Reliability wise, A8 and LS460 is on par. The engine bay in the A8 allows for ample space to work because its a hot V turbo small v8 engine in a space where a 6L W12 engine fit. The LS460 is quieter and more insulated from the road, but then again I always had Michelin PS4s on the A8. The interior creaks slightly more in the A8 when pushing on panels but the A8 is better in every way. I was very happy with ownership of my A8 and also reliability and ease of fixing. However, I do understand not everyone is able to work on their own cars, so the A8 ownership might be very different for someone else. The turbos are extremely easy to replace and also are only about $1600 for them if you don't go OEM.
So why did I go into the LS460, insurance was half of what the A8 was. I wanted something different too after driving it 40k miles. And for the price I picked up my 2008 LS460 with a mint interior, I couldn't say no. Your mileage may vary with A8 ownership, since I work on my own stuff and have the Audi diagnostic tool. What I didn't like was the radar sensors had to be realigned by the dealer every time the car changed alignment. Overall, I found the A8 relatively cheap to run, and also the most cheap car I've ever had for the power and performance. I was outrunning SRT Challengers and Hellcats with it for something that was reliable and pretty cheap to get there in power, all while in levels of comfort that are on par or exceed the LS460. Another thing I can think of on top of my head is that the ML audio blows the Bose base sound system in the A8 out of the water.
Really, with what I've seen of the brake actuator, and control arm issues on this board, the LS460 is in the same area of running costs/repair of flagship S-class/A8/7 series. I'm a bit saddened that Lexus is a far bit behind in their flagship sedan offerings unless they're cooking up a V8TT that is being rumored at the moment. THe LS460 and also the LS500 can't touch any the current V8TT offerings of Audi, but rather a better comparison is the cheaper V6 supercharged motor they offer.
If you want a relatively reliable rocket right now for under $25k on the road done with 600hp+, D4 A8 is the answer.
02-24-21, 08:53 PM
#30
Intermediate
Thread Starter
This particular car also has the B&O stereo upgrade so that's kinda nice. I am capable of doing a lot of my own work and I have a good friend who drag races his S8 and is well connected to SRM. In the event of an out-of-warranty turbo failure, you can bet that the SRM stuff is replacing it and the dealer won't ever see it. After driving one, I was really saddened that Lexus let the LS drag on so long with such dated tech and performance over its peers, I love the car, but on a performance and driving excitement level, the A8L is light years ahead. I actually like the D4 models better and this particular car has already experienced 60% depreciation in 4 years and 15k miles. I can't for the life of me understand who actually buys these things new, Then again, I see 2018 and 2019 LS500's going through Manheim at less than $60k too.