turnne

Maybe they wanted to cake and eat it to..?? Designing a car that their older buyers would like and maybe they could also capture a younger crowd?
I have never driven the new bodystyle LS so I dont have an opinion

What is the major complaint with the new LS..other than lack of a v8?
And frankly what other car is a LS buyer going after? Seems they always hated German cars so that is not really an option
The Genesis G90 would be...but other than that I dont see other choices here

As for the LX /Landcruiser. Those are almost "cult" vehicles. Evolve very slowly but I think they have a very dedicated ( but low volume) buyer
I have some close relatives who have had a Landcruiser for more than a decade and my mother has an LX. You are not buying either of those for innovation
They hold resale value like crazy though

Warren

mbarron37

I have only test driven the LS 500 on a couple of occasions. The complaints I have heard include: no V8, smaller inside than outgoing model, too sporty of a ride. These are all subjective, but It was definitely smaller inside and had a harsher ride.

I am a firm believer that the LX could be so much more than it is or has been. No need to have it based off a Landcruiser platform. A lot of potential buyers are looking for a large SUV and Lexus struggles to sell the LX?

There is something wrong here if sales of their largest SUV are declining. When was the current LX introduced, 2008? Too long between redesigns. Lexus should be able to sell 15 to 20k per year if it is something consumers actually wanted. Time will soon tell on the next LX. I am hopeful.

turnne

The LS 500 also has a LOT more technology right?
If I recall correctly that was one of the complaints of the prior model from some people...

Based on what you say I think the Genesis G90 is your friend

I dont think Toyota was ever interested in the Landcruiser/LX competing with Escalades/Navigators/the new Jeep Grand Wagoneer....or what I call the "bling " mobiles

However...if that is what the market wants then Toyota will have to have that type of vehicle

Warren

703

pretty much confirms that the new LS did nothing to improve the sales. Toyota could of saved money by doing a refresh of the 10+ year old LS and achieve the same sales numbers. A strategy they did with the equally old IS.

turnne

Or maybe the 2018 version was supposed to be that model that changed the trajectory

That is something you really dont know since that is not the path they followed
I still say they were trying to get a younger buyer to be interested
Though honestly..the GS wasnt selling either and it definitely was less conservative and more " forward" looking than the LS

Honestly...I think they have an aging issue
Frankly the folks I see driving the ES, RX and NX models are people that look like they are over 60

The question is...why does a company like BMW, for instance, sell cars at equivalent( and higher prices), but the buyers seem 20 years younger than the Lexus buyers do?

Warren

mbarron37

Technology is ever changing. When the LS 460 came out in 2007 it was on par with the then current technology available. The one caveat is that those bozos refused to put in apple car play and android auto. Sometimes Toyota thinks they are smarter then everyone else.

I disagree, Toyota and Lexus can very easily compete with the other manufacturers of large SUVs. If their desire is to sell 3k to 4K units per year, then get out of the large SUV segment.

Consumers do not want a stale model and that is exactly what Toyota and Lexus excel at. Certainly the demographics have shifted younger and those folks demand technology.

Time will tell, but for now the LS 500 has been a failure for whatever reason. I just hope we don’t see the same lame attempt when the Tundra, Sequoia and LX are finally released.

turnne

We are going to have to agree to disagree with the 2007 LS being on par with technology in 2007 with what else was available
Looking at the full size German sedans of 2007 versus the Lexus LS
An extensive array of engine options including V12 variants
Suspension systems that were significantly more complicated and driver adjustable( example..Mercedes ABC system)
Adaptive cruise
A lot of customization options, with color, leather type, wheels etc etc
The full size German sedans seem to be on the cutting edge of technology and customization...If that is important to you as a buyer

I am going to say the LS was more along the level of E class and 5 series tech

I agree with you in that Toyota could compete in the full size luxury SUV market in the United States

They just need more of a " bling" mobile with a big V8........ie....Jeep Grand Wagnoneer, Range Rover, Lincoln Navigator, Cadillac Escalade
I did hear a rumor that the V8 is going to be gone in their full size SUV's in the next iteration?

I agree with you that " younger" luxury cars buyers like technology. They also seem to like a car that has some handling prowess
As I said before ,I have never driven the 2018+ LS...but the prior model did not have anything I would call handling prowess. Even in the F sport version it didnt versus the Germans

I dont know about how successful..or not the 2018+ plus model is

But..I guess my question that I will ask again
Why dont the people that are not satisfied , with the current LS,go buy a Genesis G90?

I have driven a couple of Genesis G90s , in my opinion, it and the past generation LS are like two horns on the same goat
The genesis G90 is not selling well either...but if you want the old Lexus LS "like" feel....that is your car and a V8 is available

Warren

mbarron37

Genesis is perceived to be a step below Lexus. I think some owners have gone to Tesla and that is not a bad thing. I wish Lexus would make a full EV LS. Either way, sedan sales have been falling for quite some time.

Yes, heard V8s will be eliminated from all Toyota and Lexus SUVs/ trucks. I think all will receive the TT V6 that is in the current LS, although tuned and probably modified. The one interesting rumor is the Hybrid option that may be mated to the TT V6? Need better gas mileage than current V8.

I will test drive the Sequoia, Tundra and new LX once they finally come out. With all these shortages it is anybody’s guess if these rigs will be delayed. Hope not!!!!

turnne

Ok....
I didnt realize how important perceived status was.

Telsa seems like a a big jump. From what I see those drivers look much younger

I think..in the United States...as long as they are available the majority of people will buy V8s( or V12s) in their luxury full size sedans and SUVs
I am assuming the new 2022 Mercedes S class will offer a V12 again since their rival Audi and BMW have it available

Warren

R Z

Just curious Warren, what do you drive? You certainly seem to know much about the Lexus and Genesis cars. As for old Lexus feel, nope the Genesis is nothing like an old Lexus. IMPO it's far superior to anything Lexus is putting out now or in the past. Perhaps Lexus will get around to updating their cars, but that's up to them. Since I've driven quite a few Lexus and own a Genesis, I can speak from experience. As for sales, big cars aren't for everyone. That's why the G80 and G70 sell better than the G90. I'm guessing the ES350 outsells the 500. Cheers.

turnne

I have driven a Hyundai Equus for the past 6 years...bought 3 years old. It was still in the new car warranty and I bought the "wrap" that covered it for an additional 5 years or 100K total miles
I never got to file a claim on the warranty as nothing ever failed....In the year since the warranty expired I have spent $930 on repairs
I took a leap of faith when I bought it..based on very good reliability history from my older sister and stepfather who had both bought Hyundai Genesis sedans years ago
In years past I was pretty die hard German sedan person...two Mercedes S classes,one E class, a BMW 3 series convertible and a BMW 7 series. All bought a few years old and the 7 series was bought CPO
One of the Mercedes S classes was a " shop queen"...$20K worth of dealer warranty work and that was 20 years ago
But...when all was good with that one it still remains my favorite car of all time for a longer drive

Throughout many intervals in there..I test drove both Lexus LS and Lexus GS sedans and they were just never my cup of tea at the time because of the way they drove, for the most part
Fast forward and my home overhead etc has gotten higher. I needed something more cost effective and something that I didnt think I was going to have to be on a first name basis with my service department
My original plan was to probably get a G90 last year and sell the Equus while it still had some of the extended warranty left on it. But Covid 19 slowed my financial decision down
In fact I was test driving and talking to sales people when Covid really hit. I test drove both the turbo V6 and the V8 G90, both AWD versions. I also went down the street to the Cadillac dealer and drove the CT6 for comparison
Interestingly...I think the CT6 drives better than the G90 but the G90 has a more luxurious feel and finish

You are right big sedans are not for everyone. A Mercedes C class has always outsold the S class .What we dont know is what people would buy if they could actually afford more

But anyway..back to the G90. I am 100% sure its going to be on my short list on the next car buy
Perceived prestige is really not a big buying influence for me. Really, I have driven a Hyundai for 6 years....lol

But in all seriousness, if that was a significant factor for me I would buy another Mercedes

Warren

mbarron37

You misunderstood. Not perceived status for me, but for a lot of potential buyers.

The LS was a middle of the fence design, does not appeal to old school LS buyers and does not meet needs to those wanting true performance. IMO, the design was not thought through, but that is evidenced by the lackluster sales. Genesis is not doing any better. Maybe it is as simple as sedan sales are lower across the board?

V8s for trucks will always be popular, especially for those that actually tow. I know Ford has done ok with their new engines, but long term durability will be a question.

I don’t tow and will be looking for a large SUV that gets decent gas mileage. I would really like a full size EV SUV (not Tesla).

Anyway back to the current generation LS and ownership experiences............

sonofdark

IMPO it doesn't make sense to buy a "performance" car in the US: I would simply rent/lease one for a few spirited drives.
Better yet I would do that on vacation in Europe. Europe has much better maintained highways with a much better average car driver so that I am less concerned about safety at high speeds.

turnne

Interesting...I guess that shows a difference in brand perceptions
I never thought of the LS as a "ballers" car
Clearly it was a nice reliable car with a good dealership experience
No cutting edge technology and no real engaging driver's experience
Frankly..I thought of the old body style ,for its last 10 years, as something you would see a post retirement person with white hair driving in Florida.
No offense to anyone with that statement by the way

I think V8's and V12's will always be popular in the upper sedan ranges. Mercedes benz and BMW have offered 6 cylinder in their full size cars before and they didnt sell. I have seen more V12 Mercedes S class cars than I have seen 6 cylinder versions

You are right the Genesis G90 hasnt sold well either. Personally I think they could do better with a free standing dedicated luxury car dealership experience..or do at least as well as Lexus does in the volume ES and RX/NX categories. Those three have been the overwhelming majority of Lexus sales for years now

You do bring up a good point about prestige though
If that is a significant buying factor I dont think that person is looking at a Lexus( or would look at a Genesis) anyway

Warren

Doublebase

I think a few things happened when developing the LS500...

They knew they had to compete with the German cars and that the LS460 was not selling or cutting it.

And they failed.

And LS owners, past and present are NEVER HAPPY WITH A NEW LS. They usually are downright hostile towards whatever new version of the LS is released. I owned an LS460 for years, absolutely loved it, but the LS430 side of the house despised it. If you went over to that forum five years ago there were daily threads comparing their LS430 to the LS460...and guess what?? They liked the LS430 better, much better. Pointed out every single thing “wrong” with the 460, while glossing over anything wrong with the 430. It got to the point where they’d spill onto the LS460 forum and troll there too.

Hell, might as well carry out the tradition...the Ls460 is better than the LS500...even though I’ve never sat in one. 😂😁😀