Difference between Land Cruiser and LX470?
12-13-04, 12:43 PM
#16
Originally posted by AgentWD-40
I'm not concerned about the purchase treatment at a Toyota dealer. Dianne in the internet fleet department at Carson Toyota is great to deal with and has great prices. No haggling, no BS, she just quotes a low price and sticks with it.
Thanks for the info everybody. Quite frankly, I like the looks of the TLC better than the LX. The option differences are not a major concern either. As I mentioned above, I know a great place to get Toyota's too. My experiences with Toyota dealers service has been hit and miss thuogh. So that will become an important factor.
Here are my questions:
What is a good Lexus dealer to buy from in the SoCal area? Is there one that will have treatment like I described above (low price up front, no haggling, godo price, etc)? Perhaps going through the fleet department at one of these places?
I have another question, how is the GPS Navigation in these vehicles? Is it a voice activated system and does it speak the directions to you? Or does it beep at you when it is time to look at the screen?
I'm not concerned about the purchase treatment at a Toyota dealer. Dianne in the internet fleet department at Carson Toyota is great to deal with and has great prices. No haggling, no BS, she just quotes a low price and sticks with it.
Thanks for the info everybody. Quite frankly, I like the looks of the TLC better than the LX. The option differences are not a major concern either. As I mentioned above, I know a great place to get Toyota's too. My experiences with Toyota dealers service has been hit and miss thuogh. So that will become an important factor.
Here are my questions:
What is a good Lexus dealer to buy from in the SoCal area? Is there one that will have treatment like I described above (low price up front, no haggling, godo price, etc)? Perhaps going through the fleet department at one of these places?
I have another question, how is the GPS Navigation in these vehicles? Is it a voice activated system and does it speak the directions to you? Or does it beep at you when it is time to look at the screen?
Having purchased two Acuras and visiting a couple of Lexus dealerships, I cannot argue the customer experience is like night and day, although my current Toyota dealer has been satisfactory as car dealerships go.
12-13-04, 01:32 PM
#18
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You guys are funny with the Lexus service being worth the additional price of the Lexus LX470 
For that kind of money I want more than someone being nice to me and offering me a coke. I want a good looking girl dressed in Victoria Secret garb, running up to me with a cold beer and I still want change. The deal is that the Landcruiser is the name in the market place. I would buy the LC from Dianne and have it serviced at a dealer near you. Dianne can answer all of your questions. The differences between the LC/LX have been addressed in previous posts.
PS- I loved the Lexus service up until the time they forgot to put the oil into my wifes Lexus after an oil change service
For that kind of money I want more than someone being nice to me and offering me a coke. I want a good looking girl dressed in Victoria Secret garb, running up to me with a cold beer and I still want change. The deal is that the Landcruiser is the name in the market place. I would buy the LC from Dianne and have it serviced at a dealer near you. Dianne can answer all of your questions. The differences between the LC/LX have been addressed in previous posts.PS- I loved the Lexus service up until the time they forgot to put the oil into my wifes Lexus after an oil change service
Last edited by PitBull; 12-13-04 at 01:57 PM.
12-13-04, 04:29 PM
#19
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agentwd40 asked:
"I have another question, how is the GPS Navigation in these vehicles? Is it a voice activated system and does it speak the directions to you? Or does it beep at you when it is time to look at the screen?"
The GPS navigation in the LC/LX S**KS! Yes, in my opinion, it is THAT bad.
The GPS system is SUPPOSED to be voice activated, but quite frankly, you might have to learn another language for it to UNDERSTAND what you want it to do. After trying the voice activated commands repeatedly, I finally gave up on it. It is worthless!
The GPS does "speak" directions to you and it does beep when you get to the intersection. However, $500 stand-alone portable systems do that just as well. More importantly, these portable systems have a much larger database that actually lets you find where you want to go! With the LC/LX navigation it is hit or miss!
I posted a thread earlier about my disappointing experiences with the LC/LX GPS system. Feel free to do a seach. It is hard to believe that Toyota sells these otherwise luxury vehicles with such a crappy GPS system.
"I have another question, how is the GPS Navigation in these vehicles? Is it a voice activated system and does it speak the directions to you? Or does it beep at you when it is time to look at the screen?"
The GPS navigation in the LC/LX S**KS! Yes, in my opinion, it is THAT bad.
The GPS system is SUPPOSED to be voice activated, but quite frankly, you might have to learn another language for it to UNDERSTAND what you want it to do. After trying the voice activated commands repeatedly, I finally gave up on it. It is worthless!
The GPS does "speak" directions to you and it does beep when you get to the intersection. However, $500 stand-alone portable systems do that just as well. More importantly, these portable systems have a much larger database that actually lets you find where you want to go! With the LC/LX navigation it is hit or miss!
I posted a thread earlier about my disappointing experiences with the LC/LX GPS system. Feel free to do a seach. It is hard to believe that Toyota sells these otherwise luxury vehicles with such a crappy GPS system.
12-13-04, 06:51 PM
#20
Originally posted by nicoff
agentwd40 asked:
"I have another question, how is the GPS Navigation in these vehicles? Is it a voice activated system and does it speak the directions to you? Or does it beep at you when it is time to look at the screen?"
The GPS navigation in the LC/LX S**KS! Yes, in my opinion, it is THAT bad.
The GPS system is SUPPOSED to be voice activated, but quite frankly, you might have to learn another language for it to UNDERSTAND what you want it to do. After trying the voice activated commands repeatedly, I finally gave up on it. It is worthless!
The GPS does "speak" directions to you and it does beep when you get to the intersection. However, $500 stand-alone portable systems do that just as well. More importantly, these portable systems have a much larger database that actually lets you find where you want to go! With the LC/LX navigation it is hit or miss!
I posted a thread earlier about my disappointing experiences with the LC/LX GPS system. Feel free to do a seach. It is hard to believe that Toyota sells these otherwise luxury vehicles with such a crappy GPS system.
agentwd40 asked:
"I have another question, how is the GPS Navigation in these vehicles? Is it a voice activated system and does it speak the directions to you? Or does it beep at you when it is time to look at the screen?"
The GPS navigation in the LC/LX S**KS! Yes, in my opinion, it is THAT bad.
The GPS system is SUPPOSED to be voice activated, but quite frankly, you might have to learn another language for it to UNDERSTAND what you want it to do. After trying the voice activated commands repeatedly, I finally gave up on it. It is worthless!
The GPS does "speak" directions to you and it does beep when you get to the intersection. However, $500 stand-alone portable systems do that just as well. More importantly, these portable systems have a much larger database that actually lets you find where you want to go! With the LC/LX navigation it is hit or miss!
I posted a thread earlier about my disappointing experiences with the LC/LX GPS system. Feel free to do a seach. It is hard to believe that Toyota sells these otherwise luxury vehicles with such a crappy GPS system.
I will agree that the voice activation is a gimmick at best.
12-13-04, 07:18 PM
#21
Originally posted by Cadd
Thai, nice seeing you around! Small world! How many cars did you go through this past year? Man, the M3 is gone?
Thai, nice seeing you around! Small world! How many cars did you go through this past year? Man, the M3 is gone?
12-13-04, 08:02 PM
#22
Pole Position
If the GPS/Nav feature is important to you, I STRONGLY suggest you test it during your test drive. Test it as thoroughly as you possibly can. There have been many who have posted on this forum as well as others with complaints that basically boil down to them not liking how it worked.
In my opinion, many of these people made uninformed decisions regarding the Nav option. They didn't test it enough to know how the system works. If you don't like how it works, get one without the package and/or get an aftermarket system.
I wasn't necessarily stressing that the sales process was pleasant -- although it was quite nice. I was stressing that the service after the sale is what REALLY impressed me with Lexus. I expect some butt-kissing during the sales process from a luxury auto dealership. I didn't expect the level of customer service to be so high after the sale, however. That's what really made me happy with Lexus.
In my opinion, many of these people made uninformed decisions regarding the Nav option. They didn't test it enough to know how the system works. If you don't like how it works, get one without the package and/or get an aftermarket system.
I wasn't necessarily stressing that the sales process was pleasant -- although it was quite nice. I was stressing that the service after the sale is what REALLY impressed me with Lexus. I expect some butt-kissing during the sales process from a luxury auto dealership. I didn't expect the level of customer service to be so high after the sale, however. That's what really made me happy with Lexus.
12-14-04, 06:28 AM
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Let's be careful with relative terms here. The Lexus NAVI system may be "superb" as compared to another NAVI system (Mercedes) that is NOT known for being a good system at all. The Kia (just an example, no flames please) may be a "superb" vehicle as compared to a Yugo, but that does not make it a superb vehicle overall.
Truly excellent navi systems exist out there. They are made by companies like Garmin, Magellan and others. Once one experiences the flexibility and capabilities of top-of-the line models from top GPS manufacturers we can see what most OEM systems in our vehicles are lacking.
Car companies are NOT in the business of manufacturing GPS equipment. They outsource the navi system to third parties. The GPS equipment manufacturing companies are likely to have products with many features, however most car manufacturers are primarily looking for a product that can take you from A to B but that is not very expensive (it makes sense, car companies rather keep the profit than passing it on to a third party). So they buy stripped- down versions from the GPS companies' best products and we (the buyers of the vehicles) are likely not to know that there are much better systems out there. We presume that since the navi came with the car, it has a big (touch) screen and nice colors, it has to be the best out there.
GPS Navi systems have not been around for a long time (it was not even an option in a 2000 LC that I bought new 4 years ago). So right now, MOST people are experiencing their first navi system encounter with a OEM-installed GPS system. For them, their point of comparison is having NO navi system at all to having something that (hopefully most of the time) takes them from A to B. Needless to say, they are going to prefer "something" to nothing. And that "something", despite its deficiencies, is likely to become their new benchmark regardless of how low that benchmark has been set. As consumers become more knowledgable about GPS navi systems and start demanding more capabilities from them, hopefully car manufacturers will respond with better systems. (Acura, for example, just raised the bar with a system that communicates live traffic updates to your navi system and adjusts your route on the go based on real-time traffic conditions).
Think about car audio systems. Most car companies outsource their audio systems to third parties. Most of those audio systems are lousy. That is why there exist a strong aftermarket audio industry out there! A few vehicle manufacturers recognize that some people want a better audio system and they offer optional audio equipment from Bose, Nakamichi, Mark Levinson, etc. and, of course, those willing to have those systems will have to pay extra for them.
Truly excellent navi systems exist out there. They are made by companies like Garmin, Magellan and others. Once one experiences the flexibility and capabilities of top-of-the line models from top GPS manufacturers we can see what most OEM systems in our vehicles are lacking.
Car companies are NOT in the business of manufacturing GPS equipment. They outsource the navi system to third parties. The GPS equipment manufacturing companies are likely to have products with many features, however most car manufacturers are primarily looking for a product that can take you from A to B but that is not very expensive (it makes sense, car companies rather keep the profit than passing it on to a third party). So they buy stripped- down versions from the GPS companies' best products and we (the buyers of the vehicles) are likely not to know that there are much better systems out there. We presume that since the navi came with the car, it has a big (touch) screen and nice colors, it has to be the best out there.
GPS Navi systems have not been around for a long time (it was not even an option in a 2000 LC that I bought new 4 years ago). So right now, MOST people are experiencing their first navi system encounter with a OEM-installed GPS system. For them, their point of comparison is having NO navi system at all to having something that (hopefully most of the time) takes them from A to B. Needless to say, they are going to prefer "something" to nothing. And that "something", despite its deficiencies, is likely to become their new benchmark regardless of how low that benchmark has been set. As consumers become more knowledgable about GPS navi systems and start demanding more capabilities from them, hopefully car manufacturers will respond with better systems. (Acura, for example, just raised the bar with a system that communicates live traffic updates to your navi system and adjusts your route on the go based on real-time traffic conditions).
Think about car audio systems. Most car companies outsource their audio systems to third parties. Most of those audio systems are lousy. That is why there exist a strong aftermarket audio industry out there! A few vehicle manufacturers recognize that some people want a better audio system and they offer optional audio equipment from Bose, Nakamichi, Mark Levinson, etc. and, of course, those willing to have those systems will have to pay extra for them.
12-14-04, 09:14 AM
#25
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I agree with tigmd99. Go check out the VW or Merceded CD based NAV system. They are terrible compared to the Lexus DVD NAV system. I think mine works flawlessly. I've not had one complaint. Does the Garmin or Magellan have the traffic update like the Acura?? I didn't think they did, but I'm not up on aftermarket NAV systems very much. If they don't then it would appear that a manufacturer (Acura) apparently has some interest in having the better stuff for their system. I've used the Garmin NAV system and personally didn't like it near as much as the Lexus NAV. It was okay, but the graphics and detail seemed nicer on the Lexus. Like I said, that's just me. To each his own. The Lexus system is always rated right up there with the best in independent reviews. It works perfect for me, and I just got a notice in the mail that I get an update from Lexus for free because of some flaws found in the system. It's customer service like that that will keep me buying Lexus' for years to come. Take care.
12-14-04, 10:40 AM
#26
I have had the opportunity to compare.
My '01 Acura TL has the first DVD based Nav system that Honda/Alpine offered. It eveloved from their original regional hard drive based unit. It was lauded as one of the easiest and most straightforward out-of-the-box systems out there. You can also interpret that as it is too basic, but it has and continues to work flawlessly for me.
I then bought my Land Cruiser and initially thought that it wasn't as straightforward as my Acura. I had to read instructions and it wasn't as intuitive as the Honda/Alpine system. With that said, it is also more robust than what is in my Acura. The Toyota Nav can be tailored in many more ways. Now with that said, Honda/Alpine have upped the ante with the current gen Nav system that integrates with XM traffic reports.
I also know that Toyota will be offering such a system in the near future. I was asked by Toyota to participate in a customer focus group, and such Navs were discussed and opinions were asked as to what price tag customers would be willing to pay for Nav systems that received traffic reports and had other advanced features.
The point is that these things are evolving.
I am an electronics geek when it comes to this stuff, I want to know about all of the little features and how to exploit them. I am going to pour over a manual to learn everything about it, but that's not everyone. Think about how many people truly read the owner's manual for their cars. Car manufacturers have to market to the majority, and the majority of the population most likely wants a system where they can easily enter an address and it get's them from point A to point B. Same applies to audio systems. For those that want "something more", there is the aftermarket. Like it or not, it doesn't make sense for a car maker to put in the state of the art nav system out there, when only X% will actually opt for that option, and only X% of those individuals will only use X% of the features.
In addition, while the main feature of a navigation system is....... well... navigation. There is something to be said for the clean look of an integrated system. For asthetics and security, I like the fact that I don't have a navigation unit sitting on the dashboard of my nearly $60K vehicle. It may not be the same things you value, but that's just how it is.
My '01 Acura TL has the first DVD based Nav system that Honda/Alpine offered. It eveloved from their original regional hard drive based unit. It was lauded as one of the easiest and most straightforward out-of-the-box systems out there. You can also interpret that as it is too basic, but it has and continues to work flawlessly for me.
I then bought my Land Cruiser and initially thought that it wasn't as straightforward as my Acura. I had to read instructions and it wasn't as intuitive as the Honda/Alpine system. With that said, it is also more robust than what is in my Acura. The Toyota Nav can be tailored in many more ways. Now with that said, Honda/Alpine have upped the ante with the current gen Nav system that integrates with XM traffic reports.
I also know that Toyota will be offering such a system in the near future. I was asked by Toyota to participate in a customer focus group, and such Navs were discussed and opinions were asked as to what price tag customers would be willing to pay for Nav systems that received traffic reports and had other advanced features.
The point is that these things are evolving.
I am an electronics geek when it comes to this stuff, I want to know about all of the little features and how to exploit them. I am going to pour over a manual to learn everything about it, but that's not everyone. Think about how many people truly read the owner's manual for their cars. Car manufacturers have to market to the majority, and the majority of the population most likely wants a system where they can easily enter an address and it get's them from point A to point B. Same applies to audio systems. For those that want "something more", there is the aftermarket. Like it or not, it doesn't make sense for a car maker to put in the state of the art nav system out there, when only X% will actually opt for that option, and only X% of those individuals will only use X% of the features.
In addition, while the main feature of a navigation system is....... well... navigation. There is something to be said for the clean look of an integrated system. For asthetics and security, I like the fact that I don't have a navigation unit sitting on the dashboard of my nearly $60K vehicle. It may not be the same things you value, but that's just how it is.
12-14-04, 01:06 PM
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Doc C,
I am not an advocate of CD-based navigation systems either.Your assessment of the VW, MB and Audi navi as terrible systems reinforces what I said in my post: most OEM navi systems are lousy because most car manufacturers are more intent in saving money. The fact that the Toyota/Lexus system is DVD-based may make it better than the ones you compared it to, but that alone does NOT by any means make it perfect. I am not sure which Garmin system you tried (they have many models). The 2610 and 2620 models that I am familiar with, do NOT have the real-time traffic feature. However, let me share with you what they DO have that the Lexus/Toyota navi system does not:
*more addresses in the database (I know, I have compared with the LX/LC navi side by side)
* millions and millions more POI
*MUCH better GUI
*much more flexibility (what information is displayed, colors, spoken foreign languages, etc)
* allows you to change directions on the go (no need to stop the vehicle)
*allows route planning via desired locations NOT only the fastest/closest to points A and B (a great feature for those who rather enjoy a nice ride rather than getting there the fastest)
*allows you to plan a long trip right at your home/laptop computer (2610 model)
*it gives you REAL time when you are supposed to get somewhere (like 4:04 pm instead of 3 hours 21 minutes)
I can go on and on. That said, if you are more interested in the graphics, I presume the larger screen of the LX/LC will suit you better. I am more interested in all of the functional items that I mentioned above.
Gohawks63,
You cannot compare the navi system of an 01 Acura with the new navi systems in the Acuras 05TL and 05RL. They are worlds apart. The new Acuras have a navi system that include a new interface, voice-activated commands that actually work and bluetooth capabilities. Now, if you are trying to say that the navi system in a $60k 2004 Toyota/Lexus is better than that of a $30k 01 Acura, all I can say is that it BETTER be! If the Toyota navi meeting your needs, that is fine and great. I respect the fact that you prefer to have a neat dashboard. I travel a lot and I value a system that is more flexible and gives me many functional features like the ones I mentioned above.
I agree that these things are evolving. But if we as consumers do not raise our voices, we will continue to get stuck with subpar navi systems on otherwise fine vehicles.
I am not an advocate of CD-based navigation systems either.Your assessment of the VW, MB and Audi navi as terrible systems reinforces what I said in my post: most OEM navi systems are lousy because most car manufacturers are more intent in saving money. The fact that the Toyota/Lexus system is DVD-based may make it better than the ones you compared it to, but that alone does NOT by any means make it perfect. I am not sure which Garmin system you tried (they have many models). The 2610 and 2620 models that I am familiar with, do NOT have the real-time traffic feature. However, let me share with you what they DO have that the Lexus/Toyota navi system does not:
*more addresses in the database (I know, I have compared with the LX/LC navi side by side)
* millions and millions more POI
*MUCH better GUI
*much more flexibility (what information is displayed, colors, spoken foreign languages, etc)
* allows you to change directions on the go (no need to stop the vehicle)
*allows route planning via desired locations NOT only the fastest/closest to points A and B (a great feature for those who rather enjoy a nice ride rather than getting there the fastest)
*allows you to plan a long trip right at your home/laptop computer (2610 model)
*it gives you REAL time when you are supposed to get somewhere (like 4:04 pm instead of 3 hours 21 minutes)
I can go on and on. That said, if you are more interested in the graphics, I presume the larger screen of the LX/LC will suit you better. I am more interested in all of the functional items that I mentioned above.
Gohawks63,
You cannot compare the navi system of an 01 Acura with the new navi systems in the Acuras 05TL and 05RL. They are worlds apart. The new Acuras have a navi system that include a new interface, voice-activated commands that actually work and bluetooth capabilities. Now, if you are trying to say that the navi system in a $60k 2004 Toyota/Lexus is better than that of a $30k 01 Acura, all I can say is that it BETTER be! If the Toyota navi meeting your needs, that is fine and great. I respect the fact that you prefer to have a neat dashboard. I travel a lot and I value a system that is more flexible and gives me many functional features like the ones I mentioned above.
I agree that these things are evolving. But if we as consumers do not raise our voices, we will continue to get stuck with subpar navi systems on otherwise fine vehicles.
12-14-04, 02:01 PM
#28
Originally posted by nicoff
Gohawks63,
You cannot compare the navi system of an 01 Acura with the new navi systems in the Acuras 05TL and 05RL. They are worlds apart. The new Acuras have a navi system that include a new interface, voice-activated commands that actually work and bluetooth capabilities. Now, if you are trying to say that the navi system in a $60k 2004 Toyota/Lexus is better than that of a $30k 01 Acura, all I can say is that it BETTER be! If the Toyota navi meeting your needs, that is fine and great. I respect the fact that you prefer to have a neat dashboard. I travel a lot and I value a system that is more flexible and gives me many functional features like the ones I mentioned above.
I agree that these things are evolving. But if we as consumers do not raise our voices, we will continue to get stuck with subpar navi systems on otherwise fine vehicles.
Gohawks63,
You cannot compare the navi system of an 01 Acura with the new navi systems in the Acuras 05TL and 05RL. They are worlds apart. The new Acuras have a navi system that include a new interface, voice-activated commands that actually work and bluetooth capabilities. Now, if you are trying to say that the navi system in a $60k 2004 Toyota/Lexus is better than that of a $30k 01 Acura, all I can say is that it BETTER be! If the Toyota navi meeting your needs, that is fine and great. I respect the fact that you prefer to have a neat dashboard. I travel a lot and I value a system that is more flexible and gives me many functional features like the ones I mentioned above.
I agree that these things are evolving. But if we as consumers do not raise our voices, we will continue to get stuck with subpar navi systems on otherwise fine vehicles.
Comparing the Nav in my TL and the Land Cruiser is "apples and oranges", especially when there has been over four years of development during that time. You did come back and restate what I was getting at, they are evolving.
I'm sure that the current Toyota/Lexus Nav is much improved over the previous version that existed prior to '03, just as the current Acura Navs are much improved over the system that's in my TL. For the record, I frequently visit an Acura board, and I have read of Bluetooth incompatabilities with the Acura Navs as well. As we've stated, the technology is evolving and as with anything like this, it takes a while to shake out the bugs. I'm sure similar complaints were shared when other technologies were introduced.
Now, do I....
hate the fact that I have to stop the vehicle to program it?
think that the voice recognition is useless?
wish that it had a more intuitive user interface?
The answer to all of those questions is a resounding "YES", but for the most part, the NAV does satisfy the majority of my needs. I have taken several long road trips, and each time the NAV got me there door-to-door safely (meaning clear and timely directions) without mishaps. Those are the primary needs I have, not that the dash is clean. That's just a side benefit..
I do know for a fact that many people still don't understand the benefits of a navigation system, that's why the majority of cars that offer this as a true option (not like my LC where almost all came with one) are still purchased without this option.
Now if people don't appreciate the basic function of a navigation system, how can you justify the expense and complexity of offering a system that is all things to all people when the majority of those who will buy this technology won't use or understand all of the features?
Lastly, it is also not entirely accurate to compare the aftermarket NAVs to the OEM versions. Most OEM NAVs are integrated with the other systems (i.e. climate control, bluetooth, onboard computers, etc.) For example, the climate control in the current generation Acuras use the time of day and the navigation system to determine the car's location relative to the sun, to adjust temperature and fan speed settings. These are the things that add cost and complexity to the OEM systems.
Since the aftermarket NAVS aren't integrated into the car's onboard systems, I believe they begin to develop shortcomings when driving through areas where it is difficult to receive a satellite signal (i.e. tunnels and cities with high rises). At least, that's what I've read.
As with anything, there are trade-offs
12-14-04, 02:09 PM
#29
Originally posted by nicoff
* allows you to change directions on the go (no need to stop the vehicle)
* allows you to change directions on the go (no need to stop the vehicle)
I guarantee you that the first time an automaker is sued, you see that all NAVs, OEM or aftermarket will go down this route. Toyota was just one of the first.
12-14-04, 02:48 PM
#30
I love how people just assume things...when i had my BMW, i bought the Magellan RoadMate 700. My brother's LX470 has the DVD-NAVI (year 2001). Let me just say...there's no subsitute for integrated NAVI system. The RoadMate was excellent, but it's excellent relative to others of it's kind (Garmin, Palm stuff, etc.)...but it can't compare to the instant on feature of integrated systems. For example, on a cold morning, the Magellan would take close to 15 minutes to warm up and locate you!! On a regular morning, it would take anywhere from 5-10 minutes. If you shut it off for anything longer than an hour or two, then it would take a few minutes to warm up and locate you. The pinpoint of Magellan was also average...and it has the latest WASP (or whatever it's called) technology. It's also slower in calculations of routes and turns.
So, i do know a little of what i am talking about....
So, i do know a little of what i am talking about....