tigmd99

Well, if you read on this forum, then you will see that more than one person has complained about LX's modest power output (on paper & in real life).

The GL was designed indeed to compete with the big Lexus and Toyota. It's base model is priced at the top-end of Lexus GX470 (low-mid $50K), but with options, it can cost a few thousands more than LX470 ($70K). The GL can also be ordered with the OFF-ROAD package if you so desired, which comes with a higher ground clearance (more height from air suspension) and center and rear lockers along with ATRAC (standard on all GL).

The original G500 (G-wagen) is NOT a true competitor to LX...yes, many cross-shop the two along with Range Rover, but the two are very different in it's focus (G500 much more off-road oriented, while LX is more on-road oriented). The G is also priced around $10K more than LX. And starting in 2007 (thru 2010), G-wagens are pretty much on special order status...so, you will no longer see G-wagens on MB lots.

Like i said above, i would buy LX470 over GL450 anyday...but other people have other priorities that may favor GL (like big family needing luxury cruiser with occasional camping or someone in need of something big enough but not called a minivan).

rleggs

Resurrecting Mercedes
While the marque may have been blemished by recent quality problems, there is a dedication to making that badge shine with improved processes and new products.
By Kevin Kelly, Sr. Editor Kevin's Bio Write Kevin


Dieter Zetsche
Dieter Zetsche says he plans to stay at the helm of both DaimlerChrysler and the Mercedes-Benz unit for the near future. If anyone can orchestrate a turnaround of the troubled German luxury marque, he’s the one.
The headlines were bleak in April 2005, when Mercedes-Benz was hit with another blow to its lagging quality image. The Detroit News blared: “Big Recall Tarnishes Mercedes-Benz”. Electrical and brake system faults on several Mercedes car lines (including the E-Class) forced the automaker to recall 1.3 million cars, dating from the 2001 to 2005 model years. Its back already against the wall after several disappointing years in the annual J.D. Power and Associates Vehicle Dependability Study, where Mercedes hit a low point of 327 problems per 100 vehicles in 2004 (ranking below Oldsmobile and Plymouth), the negative press was beginning to take its toll. Once one of the most valuable and respected brands in the auto industry, Mercedes had fallen. Hard. Interbrand, which conducts an annual ranking of the top 100 brands across the globe, reported Mercedes came in below Toyota, with a total brand equity value of $20 billion dollars, a 6% decline over the prior year’s $21.3 billion-level. Could things get any worse?

Late in ’05, the leaders of Mercedes’ parent, DaimlerChrysler AG, decided it was time to make a significant change and appointed Dieter Zetsche, who was instrumental in reversing Chrysler Group’s falling fortunes, to the top of Mercedes (and the entire corporation, as well). Zetsche wasted little time in making changes, slashing Mercedes’ cost structure by laying-off thousands of German factory workers and installing several quality provisions from Chrysler (gasp!) into the luxury marque. “Our quality organizations work together on both sides and look for opportunities to enhance both of our systems,” Zetsche says, referring to the luxury brand and Chrysler. Insiders at Chrysler say their former leader has been heating up the phone lines between Stuttgart and Auburn Hills to generate increased sharing of quality initiatives. “He’s keeping us very busy over here,” says a Chrysler insider.

’07 GL-Class
The ’07 GL-Class is the first full-size SUV for the Mercedes brand. The automaker is looking to the vehicle to reestablish its quality image.
One initiative that is shared is dubbed “the tag process.” Similar to processes used at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to identify potential health crises, systems constantly monitor vehicle warranty claims and repair orders to recognize any potential anomalies that need to be resolved quickly. “If anything goes beyond your normal noise level, it immediately pops a red light in the organization. You have one week to have the root-cause identified,” Zetsche says. “If it continues into a second week, the issue goes to the vice president level, and the third week it goes right to the CEO level. It provides a built-in sense of urgency.” While the “tag” concept will help Mercedes better respond to problems in the field, it does little to provide any proactive attempts to kill potential quality issues before they reach the end of the assembly line and the showroom floor. “You can only get to top-notch quality if you engineer in and build quality in the first place. We have to do that,” he says.

Clean Diesel Comes To America

DaimlerChrysler says its Bluetec diesel technology—when used in conjunction with the low-sulfur (15 ppm versus today’s 500 ppm) diesel fuel that becomes mandatory in the U.S. on Oct. 15, 2006—will allow it to sell diesel-powered vehicles that meet vehicle emission standards in all 50 states. This technology will be offered in Mercedes passenger cars and light trucks, and shared with the Chrysler Group for initial use in its SUVs. Reportedly, the 3.2-liter V6 Bluetec diesel that will debut in the Mercedes E 320 this fall eventually will be offered in the Chrysler 300.
new badging
The new badging on Mercedes products will signify a breakthrough in diesel emission technology.

Bluetec is an emissions-reduction system that includes an oxidizing catalyst and diesel particulate filter, but it is only part of the technology. For optimum effectiveness, it must be fitted to a diesel engine with optimized combustion. For DaimlerChrysler this means one that utilizes advanced engine management electronics, four valves per cylinder, third-generation common rail injection with piezoelectric injectors, a variable-nozzle turbocharger, and exhaust gas recirculation. To control nitrogen oxide emissions, either a DeNOx storage catalyst or AdBlue injection paired with a Selective Catalyst Reduction (SCR) catalytic converter makes up the Bluetec system. The latter version is able to reduce NOx levels by as much as 80%. Which version of the system is used depends on the vehicle and the required NOx reduction rate.
The G-Class
The G-Class will remain in the Mercedes line-up for the next 5 years, while contracts to supply the Austria military remain in effect until 2016.

AdBlue is a non-toxic, colorless, odorless, water-soluble carbamide solution carried in a separate tank that is injected into the exhaust stream at rate of 1% to 3% of the diesel fuel being consumed. When injected into pre-cleaned exhaust gas, ammonia (NH3) is released, which causes the nitrogen oxides present to be converted into nitrogen and water in the SCR catalyst located downstream. Since it is used at a rate of approximately one gallon for every 2,500 miles traveled, this solution can be replenished as part of the vehicle’s regularly scheduled maintenance.
GL’s D-pillar
The design of the GL’s D-pillar was modified late in the vehicle’s development to give the SUV a more brute appearance. The original design was meant to follow the character line a few inches below.

With high-sulfur fuel no longer an impediment to diesel adoption in the U.S., the largest remaining technical hurdle to diesel implementation is the fact that only 42% of filling stations carry the fuel. However, the fact that a diesel engine option costs about one-third the amount of a hybrid powertrain but is eligible for up to $3,400 in federal tax credits if it is a low-NOx engine, this may be enough to get some customers to reconsider their powertrain choice.—CAS

GL to the Rescue
The latest product to lead the improved quality push is the ’07 GL-Class full-size SUV, which made its world debut at the 2006 North American International Auto Show. After more than five years in the development phase, the GL begins rolling off Mercedes’ Vance, Alabama, assembly line in March ’06. The GL, which was originally slated to replace the aging G-Class until it was given a 5-year reprieve, shares its underpinnings with the R- and M-Class models. The launch of the GL marks the end of a $3.5-billion investment plan for Mercedes, $600 million of which went into a new final assembly line and extensive changes at the Alabama plant. William Taylor, president and CEO of Mercedes-Benz U.S. International Inc., says the M- and GL-Class SUVs utilize common body shop operations, while the R-Class has its own dedicated body shop. All three vehicles can run down either of the plant’s dual final assembly lines. Ramp-up will continue at a snails pace until all of the GL’s quality targets are met. “We’re not going to have a discussion on quality. I will take the heat if we do not hit volume targets. We’ll get the volume later,” Taylor says. Production launch of the GL comes just months after Alabama workers added the R-Class to the production mix, which itself was launched just a few months after the all-new M-Class hit the line. “Nobody within Mercedes knew how to do three cars in one plant in one year. I can tell you it is an interesting process without a roadmap,” Taylor says. The plant itself was basically gutted, making way for the installation of new workstations, body shop fixtures and welding systems. Before the modernization, the plant had as few as 30 robots in the body shop, whereas the new operation consists of close to 800. Automated welding operations jumped from 35% in the previous-generation M-Class to 100%, utilizing both resistance and MIG welds. The paint shop was also given a complete revamp, with spray applicators installed in place of the old bell reciprocating systems. That meant workers had to go through extensive periods of training for as long as 18 months. While it was suggested the plant ramp-up all three products in a quicker timeframe, Taylor says he wanted to space the program out over 12 months in order to assure workers could face the unique challenges ahead. “Common sense told me to break it up into pieces and keep the people dedicated to specific pieces of each product and not let any of the knowledge get diluted. We needed to keep all of our strengths in order through startup,” he says. Unlike the previous generation M-Class, these new products have gone through the Mercedes “quality gate” process (also used at Chrysler Group), which calls for an immediate stop to all operations if a problem is recognized and not continue until the issue is resolved. “Recently, during one of our production trials, we had a headliner problem: it didn’t fit into one of the sunroof areas. We stopped everything, brought the supplier over and pulled the headliner at the station and demonstrated the issue right there and did not continue until it was fixed. It may end up costing us 45 minutes or an hour, but it is time well spent,” Taylor says. With M- and R-Class production running at full-rate, Taylor says he’s proud of what his team has accomplished and he’s well aware that his team cannot lose focus when it comes to quality. The wounds from the launch of the first M-Class still hurt: “The one personal regret, and I do take it personally, I have is that we didn’t have a better start on the first M-Class. That was not acceptable,” he says.

Design/Development Face Heat
When it came to developing the first full-size SUV for Mercedes, the product development team faced a number of hurdles, some of which seemed monumental, according to Ron Mueller, manager of the luxury sport utility and touring division of Mercedes-Benz USA: “The biggest challenge on our end was to develop a vehicle that would stay full-size to the U.S. customer, yet was small enough to still sell in Europe, especially since we are targeting up to 35% of the volume for the GL to go to Europe.” While the GL shares few exterior parts with its M- and R-Class siblings (only the front doors are shared with the M-Class), everything underneath is common, including gauge clusters, electrical architectures, suspension systems, HVAC, and audio systems. “We knew we had to have a different persona for the GL because it appeals to a different buyer than the M- or R-Class vehicles,” Mueller says, adding the GL is 3-in. shorter than the R-Class. Unlike the G-Class, which is a rugged SUV capable of traversing the Alps (Mercedes has a contract to provide the G-Class to the Austrian military for the next 10 years), the GL is better suited for the suburbs. Engineers wanted to provide the GL with more car-like ride-and-handling. “This is not really meant to go off-road. We expect less than one-percent of the owners of this vehicle to actually take it off-road,” Mueller says. Performance characteristics aren’t the only differentiator between the GL- and the G-Class vehicles. Mueller says Mercedes designers wanted to give the GL a unique design treatment, removing any possibility the new SUV would be dubbed a longer wheelbase version of the M-Class. He admits designers developed a GL that had a front fascia design similar to the M, but it was chucked to give the GL a more masculine appearance. “We had to go back to the drawing board,” he says. “The biggest thing for us was the front end. We wanted a front end with a big, square chin; one that was almost flat. If you look at other Mercedes you see most of them come to a point at the front, but we wanted the GL to be snub-nosed, in-your-face.” Last-minute changes were also made to the GL’s D-pillar design. The original design called for the rear edge of the pillar to be more rounded, following the contours of the body line that stretches from the top of the front headlamp up along the top of the greenhouse. “That line was too rounded and ended up making the vehicle shorter in the rear. We then decided to give it a more squared-off look, which also gave us more headroom in the third row,” Mueller says.

Inside, the GL follows along with the rest of the Mercedes SUV family, providing top-notch materials and fit-and-finish. “We learned a lot about SUV interiors from the first M-Class. Everyone climbed into that interior and said, ‘this is not a Mercedes.’ Specifically, the materials were all wrong,” Mueller says.

Mercedes’ Alabama assembly plant
Automation rules at Mercedes’ Alabama assembly plant, where the GL-Class joins the M- and R-Class through the production process.
Making the Sale
Keeping Mercedes on its current path (the German luxury marque sold a record 224,421 vehicles in 2005) and making the GL a success rests firmly on the shoulders of Paul Halata, president and CEO of Mercedes-Benz USA, the brand’s second-largest volume market behind Germany. Halata doesn’t buy into the hysteria that full-size SUVs are dying on the vine. He points out that while gasoline prices continue to remain at high levels, the GL will have a competitive advantage thanks to the availability of a 3.2-liter four-valve-per-cylinder V6 diesel engine equipped with DaimlerChrysler’s new BlueTec emissions system, which arrives in October 2006 (see sidebar). Mercedes returned diesels to its U.S. lineup in 2005 with the introduction of its E320 sedan, which quickly sold beyond its 4,000 unit target. A few obstacles remain in the way of diesels gaining mass appeal in the U.S., especially since the engines are outlawed in California and New York State, both large markets for Mercedes. Still, Halata says he longs for the days in the mid-1980s, when diesels accounted for 73% of Mercedes total U.S. volume: “I’d like to think we will see big numbers coming out of diesel engine demand in the future,” he says. “We feel with the diesel we will offer an SUV with very respectable fuel consumption.” Halata says the addition of the GL may result in lower sales of the M-Class, especially for owners of the previous-generation model looking to move into a larger vehicle. He is confident Mercedes will remain successful in the U.S. this year, thanks to full-year availability of the M-, R- and S-Class models. Still, he admits the brand will have to turn around the negative quality perception it has built up in recent years. “We’ll be relentless in accomplishing this. Mercedes and quality and reliability need to be synonymous,” he says.

Too Many Pieces?

Some observers say adding the GL to a range of products that have grown exponentially over the past few years—an expansion that includes the R-Class, CLS, C-Class Coupe and SLR—means the exclusivity of Mercedes may be lost. Zetsche says he has no plans to pare back the number of models, adding the brand may have enough space for further model iterations. “We have to make sure whatever we do enhances the brand equity of Mercedes. We will not be on the defensive mode in the future,” he says. “We could find further definitions and concepts of vehicles that are better aligned to meet the needs of our customers, but that cannot sacrifice the clear brand of Mercedes.” And what exactly is the definition of Mercedes? Zetsche defines it as, “The most exciting products which have a very strong character and technology and innovation are a very strong line of that character.” Halata agrees, saying Mercedes remains true to its luxury heritage, although globalization has changed the brand from a German-centric company. “Mercedes is the ultimate in driving, safety, design and engineering,” Halata says. “It’s a global company that is European-based.”

valgs350

iTrader: (1)

Very True!

You can't campare a GL to a LX!

They are both very diffrent cars. Well one is more like a car while the other is a real truck/SUV.

pagemaster

Give me a break. The GL gets more mileage per gallon, more horsepower, more towing capacity and more interior comfort for much cheaper price.

The Gl450 is hands down the better vehicle.

vraa

iTrader: (2)

Possibly, but at least my vehicle (Lexus LX470) will be in my garage and not the dealers (if I had gotten the GL450/550/63/whatever).

Disclaimer, I'm an admin at MBWorld.org

Threxx

IMO, The LX is a very outdated vehicle these days. It's not bad, per se, but it really doesn't justify the price on its merits alone - you have to just 'want a big lexus SUV' to really justify its purchase.

I'd much rather have the all new Escalade (which is so far above and beyond better than the old GMT-800 platform Escalade it's hard to believe the same company made both of them) than the current LX. Lexus needs to update the LX badly, although I keep hearing they're just going to do away with it entirely and bring in some sort of replacement.

The Sequoia is in a similar boat - final year of the design... it is definitely getting long in the tooth. My wife's parents just bought a brand new 07 (I think or it's a very late 2006) limited Seq and while it's pretty nice, there are a lot of things in it that scream "I'm an icon of the past!"

I don't know much about the GL450. I don't care for the way it looks and if it's typical Mercedes then it's likely overpriced, uncomfortable ride quality, and unreliable.

I guess out of your list I'd go with the Enclave. Based on what I know about it, it seems like a very nice SUV. BUT I don't understand why you are cross-shopping the other three with the Enclave, as the Enclave is, if anything, meant to compete with the Acura MDX, Lexus RX350, and so on. It's a unibody design and not meant to compete with the larger body on frame truck-based SUVs.

Personally I say if you want a big one, go with the Escalade - 403hp, 6-speed auto, AWD, magneto rhetorical ride control shocks, and a beautiful interior for a GM especially. If you want a smaller lux SUV consider the all new 07 MDX that will be out in a few more weeks. REALLY nice vehicle overall. The RX isn't a bad choice either but I just haven't been impressed with the quality since they moved it to canada. At least the powertrain improved by leaps and bounds when they moved to the new GR engine series.

Threxx

aedgington made a post in this thread talking about how the Escalade would drop in resale price the moment you drove it off the lot. But I gues he deleted it? It was basically saying that the Escalade will drop far more quickly in value. I know as a whole that is true for Caddy vs Lexus, but I think the gap is slowly narrowing, and furthermore it doesn't always hold true when comparing a brand new model to a model that is a year away from being discontinued.

According to edmund's true cost of ownership calculations, the LX will have actually cost you around 5 grand more after 5 years and 75k miles driving to have owned.

I don't know enough about off-roading to speak for which one would do better on the trails but I do know enough to say that the extremely great majority of either vehicle will never see an off-road venture beyond the occasional gravel driveway.

aedgington

I deleted my post because arguing on the internet is retarded, but let's go on, since you referenced my post.

Referring to Edmunds is equally retarded. I'm a car wholesaler, and Escalades are worthless at the auction. Let's compare residual value:

2004 Escalade MSRP 54K
2004 value $26K
-- 48% --

2004 LX470 MSRP 64K
2004 value $38K
-- 59% --

These aren't bull***** internet value #'s, these are dealer only auction market values. So my statement about residual values stand.

As far as off-roading or anything else goes, I SERIOUSLY doubt that 25 years of service was one of the Escalade's design criteria.

Threxx

You've managed to ignore three very important points:

-I'll betcha if we both set out to buy a brand new Escalade and a brand new LX during the 2004 model year, that I would be able to get the Escalade for a considerably lower percentage of its MSRP. MSRP isn't what matters when considering true cost of ownership unless MSRP is what you paid. It only takes a quick glance in the paper to notice the difference between many domestic vehicle's MSRP and actual price paid is often times huge.

-You are showing 2 year old car values. If you are buying a car as new and planning to sell it within 2 years then you most likely should be leasing anyway. I stated 5 year values. Edmunds themselves showed the Escalade drops more of its value the first year of ownership, both dollar wise and percentage wise, than the LX. But by year 2 it was an even loss and in year 3, 4, and 5 the Escalade lost less and ended up depreciating considerably less overall.

-The 2004 Escalade was not even remotely as impressive of a vehicle as the 2007. It was also several years into its model life. The 2007 Escalade is a brand new model. It will still be the 'current design' 5 years from now in 2011. In 2011 the 2007 LX will be a design that was already long in the tooth when it was discontinued 5 years beforehand. I'd tend to guess whatever Lexus has planned next might very well set the new benchmark in its class - quite possibly surpassing the escalade and making all but those who have fond memories of the LC platform for its off-roading heritage, all but forget about what came before it.

I guess the last little side note is that you might realize I don't drive any GM vehicles at the moment. Not an Escalade or anything else. I have absolutely no reason to be biased, and in fact in a couple of GM forums I participate on am often times regarded as an import nut-hugger. So please realize that I'm giving my honest opinion and not just defending my purchase, such as you may (or may not) be doing, being that you own an LX yourself.

valgs350

iTrader: (1)

Are you going to go race your SUV!

The LX is a great car, it can handle both the road and the off-road. Go take a GL off-road and see the rear diff break. The GL is full of plastic on the inside has well. It's not has great has some might think. It just has a bit more space for the 2nd row passengers. Its not cheaper, compare what the LX comes with standard and then compair what a GL comes with standard at the starting price. The LX comes standard with Bluetooth, center diff lock, real 4wd not that 4 matic crap, and other items.

I do own a GL and LX!

The LX is all-around car while the GL is only a on-road car. The only big difference is that the GL is quicker but are you really buying a SUV for the 0-60. The GL is more of car than a truck like the RX.

The LX is not like some dumb Escalade it has the heritage of a Land Cruiser one of the most reliable cars is the world. Compare the LX to a Land Rover not a Escalade please!

If you want better MPG go buy yourself a Toyota Prius!

The funny part is people buying a LX and a Land Cruiser don't go off-raoding except a few idiots that do. + Hummer and Land Rover

LOL

Why even by a SUV when your not going to off-road, if you need space buy a Dodge Sprinter.

tigmd99

Has there been any report of GL breaking it's diff in off-roading?? It does come with a rear diff locker in it's off-road package, along with center diff lock. 4-Matic is similar to LX's full-time system without low range. However, if you get the OFF-ROAD package, then you get LOW RANGE, center + rear diff lockers, and more height in it's air suspension.

Threxx

The Escalade is a lux'd up Tahoe, just like the the LX is a lux'd up LC. Both are well respected vehicles in the off-road scene.

And Land Rover as a whole is the long and far THE most unreliable mass production brand in existance today. So I wouldn't recommend comparing Lexus to Land Rover when speaking in terms of reliability. On the flipside, Caddy, recently, has been nipping at the heels of the others in the top 5 for the past few years now.

Definitely true. It always strikes me as stupid how many lux SUV owners will resort to arguing about off-road prowess and how many days of straight driving in 150 degree heat in the desert their vehicle is theoretically capable of handling when the most extreme duty they see is the valet mashing the gas before he pulls into the parking lot.[/QUOTE]

aedgington

*Edit* Don't feel like arguing. Maybe the thread orginator should have made this a poll.

I would like to say, though, that my #'s are actual auction averages of prices dealers are paying. They're not theoretical website-to-consumer #'s. What I (or any other dealer) am willing to pay for a given vehicle is usually VERY different from what any website says they're worth.

If you *really* want to tell a used car dealer that Edmunds is right and he is wrong about the value of a vehicle, that's your prerogative... but it would be a lot like a car dealer telling you that D-Link > Cisco. I pick that example because I know just how retarded it sounds, I spent 10 years in the IT business before getting into the car business.

I'm not defending my purchase. I'm trying to help someone who asked for opinions to make a decision. Like I said originally, arguing on the 'net is pretty pointless. I've stated my opinion, if you *honestly* believe the Escalade is a better vehicle than the LX, well, I think that's funny. I think we'd probably have a much better argument if we were talking about Audi vs. BMW, because I (IMHO) at least consider them competitors. I don't consider the Escalade a competitor to the LX.

Threxx

Obviously you have driven the LX since you own one (and likely why you are defending it, despite thinking arguing on the 'net is stupid)

But have you driven the new Escalade? I doubt it. Try it if you haven't. I was blown away, and I am somebody who used to rag on the old style Escalade like nobody else. The interior was pure crap for a vehicle that expensive, for example. On the new one the interior is arguably class-leading. Very very well put together and aesthetically pleasing.

Oh, and I'm sad you edited your post - I read your initial post in my email and there were a couple of really bad points of info I was looking forward to going to town on. (cuz I think arguing on the 'net is a great learning experience, personally)

aedgington

I've driven it, and I've never said the interior appointments and features of many other vehicles are better than the LXs. Initially, at least, I don't think any of the aforementioned vehicles ages as well as the LX except the MB. Like I originally said, though, reliability is my main concern. GM has not proven to me that they can build a reliable vehicle.

Here's a breakdown of your educational arguments:

Me: The LX is the most reliable.
You: The Escalade is the best.
Me: The Escalades residual sucks.
You: Edmunds says the Escalade has better TCO.
Me: Here's real world auction data.
You: The Escalades interior is the best.

It seems to me like you do a lot less arguing than you think and a lot more of bringing up new & unrelated opinions.