LX570 off road capability?
05-21-08, 10:02 AM
#91
Slee Off-Road has developed a few off-road/expedition parts for the 200 Series Land Cruiser including a prototype rear bumper. Check it out...
http://www.expeditionportal.com/foru...ad.php?t=15079
http://www.expeditionportal.com/foru...ad.php?t=15079
04-17-10, 09:31 AM
#98
Driver School Candidate
I know this thread is two years old, but i found it in a google search and could not resist posting. So here it goes:
Im big into offroading Landcruisers, or in my case LXs....i spend a ton of time on IH8MUD.....if you have an LX and you offroad....check i out. I want to clarify some things about the 200/LX570.
1) AHC is hydraulic, its not air suspension. While it seems like a good thing off road, it does have weaknesses. First it is not reliable when compared to traditional setup. It also will not stand up to being off road everyday and hauling heavy loads constantly. The 100 LC did get AHC, but only for the last two years of production( 2006 and 2007)....and it was not popular. From 98 to 06 Toyota was using the LX as the guinea pig platform to revise the system till it meet there standards for durability. I suspect Toyota is doing the same with the 200 since the system has improved alot performance wise. There are alot of people that scrap AHC altogether and install traditional shocks and springs.
2) KDSS is not available in conjunction with AHC, IDK why exactly, but i suspect it was to with the fact when you lift an LC with KDSS, you have to reset KDSS in order for it operate properly......I know this from people who have lifted 08 LC 200s
3) The 200 is the first vehicle ever to have multi-terrain ABS, Toyota developed for the 200. The jury is still out on whether it is better than just turning ABS off, but so far it seems to actually work better than just shutting of ABS.
4) Diesel is better for offroading........for rally racing gas is better. In offroad situations where you would use a LX or LC you want torque down low in the power band, which is where diesels are superior. Also diesel is more reliable and efficient than gas. The 200 series has won its class in the Dakar rally both times it competed......it had the diesel. The 100 series also won dakar multiple times with the diesel.
5) all this stuff about approach and departure angles is not that important. In places where people off road for real with the cars, they all have aftermarket steel bumpers. Even if they do scrape on the ground, nothing will happen to the car anyway......Toyota knows that it will happen and designed the vehicle accordingly. Also the reason the bumpers are so low now, is not because Toyota doesnt care about offroading, the insurance companies have made a deal with the car manufacturers requiring them to lower their front bumpers for safety......in other word, it is not something they necessarily wanted to do, but as stated before, if you want to wheel it, change the bumpers.
tigmd99-
I see you off road with you G500 and are very fond of it, but i do want to point out somethings about it as i considered buying one in the past
1) Triple lockers are great and yes ATRAC doesnt quite compare, but with practice, it comes very close. However try locking all three locker simultaneously and making a circle at full steering lock.......now do it in LC using ATRAC/Crawl Control......tell me which one makes the tighter circle. And believe me, offroad turning circle is very important.
2) while solid axles are great for offroading, the design of the G is so old that it has no where near the amount of wheel travel of the 200 LC or even the 100. Find and RTI ramp and someone with a 100 or 200 and go compare. Smaller overhangs are good, but if the suspension wont flex.....what good is it?
3) You said the G has been in production about 25 years and is used by militaries around the world. Well the Toyota 70 series has been produced for just as long and is used by militaries and the UN so...... BTW the 200 is also used by the UN and militaries as well. So its a null point
4) The G is a very heavy and well built vehicle......but in 25 years car makers have learned alot about alloys and structural designs. Being so heavy and so small is not a great thing.....it just shows that the design is dated and uses alot of materials. Last time i checked the G does not have as well known reputation around the world for durability, when compared to the LC despite being so heavy.
5) The is far more limited in the availability of upgrade parts than the 200 or 100. That goes for both in the US and around the world.
Im big into offroading Landcruisers, or in my case LXs....i spend a ton of time on IH8MUD.....if you have an LX and you offroad....check i out. I want to clarify some things about the 200/LX570.
1) AHC is hydraulic, its not air suspension. While it seems like a good thing off road, it does have weaknesses. First it is not reliable when compared to traditional setup. It also will not stand up to being off road everyday and hauling heavy loads constantly. The 100 LC did get AHC, but only for the last two years of production( 2006 and 2007)....and it was not popular. From 98 to 06 Toyota was using the LX as the guinea pig platform to revise the system till it meet there standards for durability. I suspect Toyota is doing the same with the 200 since the system has improved alot performance wise. There are alot of people that scrap AHC altogether and install traditional shocks and springs.
2) KDSS is not available in conjunction with AHC, IDK why exactly, but i suspect it was to with the fact when you lift an LC with KDSS, you have to reset KDSS in order for it operate properly......I know this from people who have lifted 08 LC 200s
3) The 200 is the first vehicle ever to have multi-terrain ABS, Toyota developed for the 200. The jury is still out on whether it is better than just turning ABS off, but so far it seems to actually work better than just shutting of ABS.
4) Diesel is better for offroading........for rally racing gas is better. In offroad situations where you would use a LX or LC you want torque down low in the power band, which is where diesels are superior. Also diesel is more reliable and efficient than gas. The 200 series has won its class in the Dakar rally both times it competed......it had the diesel. The 100 series also won dakar multiple times with the diesel.
5) all this stuff about approach and departure angles is not that important. In places where people off road for real with the cars, they all have aftermarket steel bumpers. Even if they do scrape on the ground, nothing will happen to the car anyway......Toyota knows that it will happen and designed the vehicle accordingly. Also the reason the bumpers are so low now, is not because Toyota doesnt care about offroading, the insurance companies have made a deal with the car manufacturers requiring them to lower their front bumpers for safety......in other word, it is not something they necessarily wanted to do, but as stated before, if you want to wheel it, change the bumpers.
tigmd99-
I see you off road with you G500 and are very fond of it, but i do want to point out somethings about it as i considered buying one in the past
1) Triple lockers are great and yes ATRAC doesnt quite compare, but with practice, it comes very close. However try locking all three locker simultaneously and making a circle at full steering lock.......now do it in LC using ATRAC/Crawl Control......tell me which one makes the tighter circle. And believe me, offroad turning circle is very important.
2) while solid axles are great for offroading, the design of the G is so old that it has no where near the amount of wheel travel of the 200 LC or even the 100. Find and RTI ramp and someone with a 100 or 200 and go compare. Smaller overhangs are good, but if the suspension wont flex.....what good is it?
3) You said the G has been in production about 25 years and is used by militaries around the world. Well the Toyota 70 series has been produced for just as long and is used by militaries and the UN so...... BTW the 200 is also used by the UN and militaries as well. So its a null point
4) The G is a very heavy and well built vehicle......but in 25 years car makers have learned alot about alloys and structural designs. Being so heavy and so small is not a great thing.....it just shows that the design is dated and uses alot of materials. Last time i checked the G does not have as well known reputation around the world for durability, when compared to the LC despite being so heavy.
5) The is far more limited in the availability of upgrade parts than the 200 or 100. That goes for both in the US and around the world.
04-17-10, 12:45 PM
#99
Driver School Candidate
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[quote=PMan;5411463]I know this thread is two years old, but i found it in a google search and could not resist posting. So here it goes:
Im big into offroading Landcruisers, or in my case LXs....i spend a ton of time on IH8MUD.....if you have an LX and you offroad....check i out. I want to clarify some things about the 200/LX570.
1) AHC is hydraulic, its not air suspension. While it seems like a good thing off road, it does have weaknesses. First it is not reliable when compared to traditional setup. It also will not stand up to being off road everyday and hauling heavy loads constantly. The 100 LC did get AHC, but only for the last two years of production( 2006 and 2007)....and it was not popular. From 98 to 06 Toyota was using the LX as the guinea pig platform to revise the system till it meet there standards for durability. I suspect Toyota is doing the same with the 200 since the system has improved alot performance wise. There are alot of people that scrap AHC altogether and install traditional shocks and springs.
2) KDSS is not available in conjunction with AHC, IDK why exactly, but i suspect it was to with the fact when you lift an LC with KDSS, you have to reset KDSS in order for it operate properly......I know this from people who have lifted 08 LC 200s
3) The 200 is the first vehicle ever to have multi-terrain ABS, Toyota developed for the 200. The jury is still out on whether it is better than just turning ABS off, but so far it seems to actually work better than just shutting of ABS.
quote]
I agree with most of what you are saying. Yes the LX is a hydraulic suspension and a hydraulic suspension simply is less reliable than a more traditional set-up. You would not want to take a LX into some really remote regions where a chance of failure is possible.
And yes, many LC owners did not like that LC was offering with AHC in 2006.
There are some markets where the LC 200 is using the same LX570 AVS.
Land Cruisers 200 still use a rear locker in some Non North American regions. A rear locker is far superior the ATRAC for off-roading....however, Toyota pushes ATRAC in North America because of the safety advantages...while the a rear locker is simply a tool for the LC, ATRAC serves as a safety feature.
The Canadian Armed Forces uses the G-wagen in Afghanistan. 200, 700 series or G-wagen, none are better than each other...only the Toyota's are much more reliable.
Im big into offroading Landcruisers, or in my case LXs....i spend a ton of time on IH8MUD.....if you have an LX and you offroad....check i out. I want to clarify some things about the 200/LX570.
1) AHC is hydraulic, its not air suspension. While it seems like a good thing off road, it does have weaknesses. First it is not reliable when compared to traditional setup. It also will not stand up to being off road everyday and hauling heavy loads constantly. The 100 LC did get AHC, but only for the last two years of production( 2006 and 2007)....and it was not popular. From 98 to 06 Toyota was using the LX as the guinea pig platform to revise the system till it meet there standards for durability. I suspect Toyota is doing the same with the 200 since the system has improved alot performance wise. There are alot of people that scrap AHC altogether and install traditional shocks and springs.
2) KDSS is not available in conjunction with AHC, IDK why exactly, but i suspect it was to with the fact when you lift an LC with KDSS, you have to reset KDSS in order for it operate properly......I know this from people who have lifted 08 LC 200s
3) The 200 is the first vehicle ever to have multi-terrain ABS, Toyota developed for the 200. The jury is still out on whether it is better than just turning ABS off, but so far it seems to actually work better than just shutting of ABS.
quote]
I agree with most of what you are saying. Yes the LX is a hydraulic suspension and a hydraulic suspension simply is less reliable than a more traditional set-up. You would not want to take a LX into some really remote regions where a chance of failure is possible.
And yes, many LC owners did not like that LC was offering with AHC in 2006.
There are some markets where the LC 200 is using the same LX570 AVS.
1) Triple lockers are great and yes ATRAC doesnt quite compare, but with practice, it comes very close. However try locking all three locker simultaneously and making a circle at full steering lock.......now do it in LC using ATRAC/Crawl Control......tell me which one makes the tighter circle. And believe me, offroad turning circle is very important.
3) BTW the 200 is also used by the UN and militaries as well. So its a null point
04-17-10, 09:29 PM
#100
PMan,
1. AHC may not be as durable as a traditional setup, but it does provide certain benefits (better angles, self-leveling for heavy objects/towing). From reading this forum, it seems like AHC needs maintenance every 60k miles, which is not particularly bad. Got to pay to play, right?
2. Lexus needs to add cross-linking shocks in vehicles with AHC, aka Range Rover. KDSS is nice and does provide more articulation, but there sure seems to be more stuff hanging down low, below frame height!
3. According to Toyota's own literature, the TLC100 indeed had a multi-terrain ABS. Read: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/compar...formation.html
"The new Cruiser's Aisin-supplied ABS operates even in 4-wheel low while the center diff is locked. The system is able to "read" road conditions and vehicle dynamics, decreasing the amount of anti-lock applied according to suspension travel, road gradient and abrupt changes in vehicle speed."
And yes, if i remember correctly, back in 1998, Toyota did call this ABS system, "multi-terrain ABS."
4. I agree diesel is very nice. But, for off-roading, GEARING (aka crawl ratio) is what is important, more than what engine is underneath the hood.
5. Not sure how much off-roading experiences you have, but FOR ME, all the angles are all VERY important off-road......esp, the breakover angle, which a lot of people overlook, but can hang your vehicle up very easily! Why would you want to bash your bumpers if you don't have to, right?? I rather have clean bumpers. Examples of ways to get around this? See 2010 Toyota 4runner where Toyota designed two sets of bumpers...one for SR5 and Limited, the other for Trail Edition. Yeah, the breakover angle on the TLC200 is just bad IMHO, even if you overlook the horrible approach and departure angles.
You talk about aftermarket heavy bumpers. Ok...if you put those suckers on, then what happens? Your front or back end sags, thus further killing your angles. So, you have to put a lift on now to compensate the heavy bumpers. Sure, except now, you just altered the suspension angles that Toyota engineers have worked so hard on...say hello to CV leaking and other issues! No thanks.
And this is why air/hydraulic suspensions have become so popular these days because it allows the manufacturer to design a high-clearances while still meet on-road safety standards (because at highway speeds, the suspension lowers the vehicle).
1. AHC may not be as durable as a traditional setup, but it does provide certain benefits (better angles, self-leveling for heavy objects/towing). From reading this forum, it seems like AHC needs maintenance every 60k miles, which is not particularly bad. Got to pay to play, right?
2. Lexus needs to add cross-linking shocks in vehicles with AHC, aka Range Rover. KDSS is nice and does provide more articulation, but there sure seems to be more stuff hanging down low, below frame height!
3. According to Toyota's own literature, the TLC100 indeed had a multi-terrain ABS. Read: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/compar...formation.html
"The new Cruiser's Aisin-supplied ABS operates even in 4-wheel low while the center diff is locked. The system is able to "read" road conditions and vehicle dynamics, decreasing the amount of anti-lock applied according to suspension travel, road gradient and abrupt changes in vehicle speed."
And yes, if i remember correctly, back in 1998, Toyota did call this ABS system, "multi-terrain ABS."
4. I agree diesel is very nice. But, for off-roading, GEARING (aka crawl ratio) is what is important, more than what engine is underneath the hood.
5. Not sure how much off-roading experiences you have, but FOR ME, all the angles are all VERY important off-road......esp, the breakover angle, which a lot of people overlook, but can hang your vehicle up very easily! Why would you want to bash your bumpers if you don't have to, right?? I rather have clean bumpers. Examples of ways to get around this? See 2010 Toyota 4runner where Toyota designed two sets of bumpers...one for SR5 and Limited, the other for Trail Edition. Yeah, the breakover angle on the TLC200 is just bad IMHO, even if you overlook the horrible approach and departure angles.
You talk about aftermarket heavy bumpers. Ok...if you put those suckers on, then what happens? Your front or back end sags, thus further killing your angles. So, you have to put a lift on now to compensate the heavy bumpers. Sure, except now, you just altered the suspension angles that Toyota engineers have worked so hard on...say hello to CV leaking and other issues! No thanks.
And this is why air/hydraulic suspensions have become so popular these days because it allows the manufacturer to design a high-clearances while still meet on-road safety standards (because at highway speeds, the suspension lowers the vehicle).
04-17-10, 09:59 PM
#101
tigmd99-
I see you off road with you G500 and are very fond of it, but i do want to point out somethings about it as i considered buying one in the past
1) Triple lockers are great and yes ATRAC doesnt quite compare, but with practice, it comes very close. However try locking all three locker simultaneously and making a circle at full steering lock.......now do it in LC using ATRAC/Crawl Control......tell me which one makes the tighter circle. And believe me, offroad turning circle is very important.
2) while solid axles are great for offroading, the design of the G is so old that it has no where near the amount of wheel travel of the 200 LC or even the 100. Find and RTI ramp and someone with a 100 or 200 and go compare. Smaller overhangs are good, but if the suspension wont flex.....what good is it?
3) You said the G has been in production about 25 years and is used by militaries around the world. Well the Toyota 70 series has been produced for just as long and is used by militaries and the UN so...... BTW the 200 is also used by the UN and militaries as well. So its a null point
4) The G is a very heavy and well built vehicle......but in 25 years car makers have learned alot about alloys and structural designs. Being so heavy and so small is not a great thing.....it just shows that the design is dated and uses alot of materials. Last time i checked the G does not have as well known reputation around the world for durability, when compared to the LC despite being so heavy.
5) The is far more limited in the availability of upgrade parts than the 200 or 100. That goes for both in the US and around the world.
I see you off road with you G500 and are very fond of it, but i do want to point out somethings about it as i considered buying one in the past
1) Triple lockers are great and yes ATRAC doesnt quite compare, but with practice, it comes very close. However try locking all three locker simultaneously and making a circle at full steering lock.......now do it in LC using ATRAC/Crawl Control......tell me which one makes the tighter circle. And believe me, offroad turning circle is very important.
2) while solid axles are great for offroading, the design of the G is so old that it has no where near the amount of wheel travel of the 200 LC or even the 100. Find and RTI ramp and someone with a 100 or 200 and go compare. Smaller overhangs are good, but if the suspension wont flex.....what good is it?
3) You said the G has been in production about 25 years and is used by militaries around the world. Well the Toyota 70 series has been produced for just as long and is used by militaries and the UN so...... BTW the 200 is also used by the UN and militaries as well. So its a null point
4) The G is a very heavy and well built vehicle......but in 25 years car makers have learned alot about alloys and structural designs. Being so heavy and so small is not a great thing.....it just shows that the design is dated and uses alot of materials. Last time i checked the G does not have as well known reputation around the world for durability, when compared to the LC despite being so heavy.
5) The is far more limited in the availability of upgrade parts than the 200 or 100. That goes for both in the US and around the world.
1. Why would i want to lock all 3 lockers and drive around in a circle off-road??
That would look retarded IMO! And NO, ATRAC is NOT close to a locker off-road...by you saying this, it is pretty clear that you have NOT had a vehicle with triple lockers and/or you have not gone far off pavement. Not even close.However, if you have the "A-TRAC" from the FJ Cruiser or 2010 4runner Trail, then it is SIGNIFICANTLY better than CRAWL or ATRAC on your TLC/LX. The ATRAC on the TLC/LX (both TLC100 and 200) are more all-season traction control...not particularly aggressive enough for hardcore off-road use. On the other hand, the "A-TRAC" on FJ is for off-road use only and 4-LO only. So, it is super aggressive at clamping down a spinning wheel. This special A-TRAC is effective, but again, in a difficult rock climb or over tough terrain, NOTHING BEATS A LOCKER. Why?
ATRAC or A-TRAC is REactive. That is, your tires must ALREADY slip before it engages. And when a tire slips, that means that traction has already been compromise and the system is just playing catch-up. Momentum is potentially lost. A locker, on the other hand, is PROactive. You lock before going through terrain and the locker will insure traction before it is lost. THAT is a huge difference b/w the ATRAC and locker.
Oh yeah, G-wagen ALSO has ATRAC. So, i can unlock my lockers and be at the same "downgrade" level as you.
Or i can just lock the center and rear diffs and still have steering control for most off-road situations. In fact, when off-roading, i usually lock my center and rear diffs most of the time. No problems whatsoever. In fact, my friends with Rubicons do this also.2. My G500 has 8 inches of travel up front and 14 inches in the rear, confirmed by a user on the G forum. What do you have?
BTW, with triple lockers, suspension travel becomes of lesser importance. THAT is a huge benefit of lockers. Also, suspension travel is highly overrated...it is good for pictures (see Schotts on IH8mud), but of limited usefulness off-road.
Yeah, i have thick forged solid steel control arms...i think that i will trade that solid suspension components over travel anyday of the week, esp. with triple lockers.
In addition, my control arms are attached to the SIDE of the frame...no clearance issues over rocks!3. Sorry, but my G-wagen has been in production for over 30 years and there has been NO REDESIGN. When you design something right from the beginning, you don't need redesigns to fix issues. It is a time tested and proven all over the globe via civilian, commercial, and military use. Can you say that about TLC100 or TLC200 or TLC80?? Nope. The G-wagens are actually official wartime military vehicle that actually see the battlefield, not just for carrying food to the poor.
4. You better check again.
Dude, the TLC100 control arms crack in Aussie backyard, ok! Geez!Official stat to ponder: Toyota advertises that the TLC100 frame has maximum thickness of 3.2 mm. From Mercedes/Graz, "Up to 4-mm thick in places, the G-class frame is held together by more than 6400 weld spots. As well as that, it is surface-treated and waxed."
Not even close. Sorry to burst your bubble!
BTW, being small as the G is, it is actually quite vital for off-roading. Being a big SUV like the TLC/LX, this is a liability off-road.
5. Upgrade? Why? The G-wagen is ALREADY equipped for off-road abuse from the factory. All you need are good tires of your choice. Does your TLC100/200 have a rear diff breather tube extension that any PROPER off-road vehicle should have?? No. The next time you look at a G, take a look under the hood and see if you can locate the FOUR breather tube extensions and it is all the way at the very top of the engine bay. Don't look but the Tundra has a much stronger rear axle! (That is depressing IMO.)
BTW, the simple geometric design of the G-wagen parts was done so that anyone can make replacement pieces, whether you're in Beverly Hills or in Afgan hills.
04-19-10, 04:59 AM
#102
Here are some pics:
2nd pic is that of my underbelly...you can see the huge round crossmembers being welded through-n-through BOTH sides of the frame. The crossmembers are not "attached by bracketry" like that in the Land Cruiser...it is welded through the frame itself! This is why the frame itself is able to support all the military modifications without issue.
In addition, you can see that the actual control arms are attached to the SIDE of the frame, which may decrease articulation a bit, but it increases clearance and avoids potential damage. With TLC/LX, you need to fabricate control arm "skidplate" to protect attachment point which is on the underside of the frame and thus, is exposed to damage from a rock and decreases clearance.
The 4th pic is that of the locker mechanism...again, the teeth are thick. Bad: engagement can take a few seconds. Good: you can't break it! So, as you can see, the G is equipped from factory already for off-road abuse.
2nd pic is that of my underbelly...you can see the huge round crossmembers being welded through-n-through BOTH sides of the frame. The crossmembers are not "attached by bracketry" like that in the Land Cruiser...it is welded through the frame itself! This is why the frame itself is able to support all the military modifications without issue.
In addition, you can see that the actual control arms are attached to the SIDE of the frame, which may decrease articulation a bit, but it increases clearance and avoids potential damage. With TLC/LX, you need to fabricate control arm "skidplate" to protect attachment point which is on the underside of the frame and thus, is exposed to damage from a rock and decreases clearance.
The 4th pic is that of the locker mechanism...again, the teeth are thick. Bad: engagement can take a few seconds. Good: you can't break it! So, as you can see, the G is equipped from factory already for off-road abuse.
Last edited by tigmd99; 04-19-10 at 05:05 AM.
04-19-10, 08:53 AM
#105