steviej

iTrader: (1)

saber,

Since you seem to be a self appointed oil guru, consider all the other non-Toyota vehicles in the world that achieve over 200,000 miles and maintain a clean engine.

They are using genuine toyota brand motor oil, right?

nuff said.

steviej

nthach

my parents have a 1983 Cressida, with 246,000 miles on the chassis, half that on the engine(original engine died of timing belt failure) and ALL of those miles were on 10W-30. Pennzoil, Castrol, Chevron, Quaker State, Kendall, its seen it all.

saber

How about if we cut to the bottom line. My position is that Toyota is not lying to us or deceiving us when it claims Genuine Toyota Motor Oil is "specially formulated by Toyota for Toyota vehicles" http://www.saber.net/~monarch/ls430b.jpg Further, on page 52 of the 2004 Scheduled Maintenance Guide Toyota states that "Genuine Toyota Motor Oil is specially formulated with a special combination of lube-base stocks and an additive blend to maximize the benefits of this [highly advanced Toyota engine] technology" So in other words, even though Toyota may contract American oil companies like Mobil, Valvoline or Chevron to make Toyota Motor Oil, I don't believe Genuine Toyota 5W-30 Motor Oil is just a relabeled, repackaged existing 5W-30 motor oil product like Mobil Drive Clean, Chevron Supreme 5W-30 or the Valvoline 5W-30. I believe Genuine Toyota 5W-30 Motor Oil is chemically unique in certain characteristics just as Toyota claims. So what do all you loyal Bobistheoilguy troopers think? Do you all think Genuine Toyota 5W-30 Motor Oil is just a relabeled, repackaged existing 5W-30 motor oil product? YES OR NO ?? If your answer is YES, please provide the name the chemically identical existing product.

motorguy22

[QUOTE]Originally posted by saber
[B]The information I give out is merely that provided by Toyota / Lexus in the 2003 & 2004 owners manuals, scheduled maintenance booklet, Toyota technician training manuals, the owner FAQ at Toyota.com. and Lexus.com and on the labels and brochures of Toyota fluids, lubes and filters

saber,saber.Don't you understand that ALL auto manufacturers have products with their name on them,this in no way means that they are superior to anything else available.The Toyota car itself is made up of thousands of individual parts from other companies,the same companies in many instances that make parts for other auto makers and for the aftermarket.In many instances aftermarket parts are better than OEM and they are usually much cheaper.I used to work in manufacturing.We made products with our name on them and we also made products for others.The products that were made for others was the exact same product that we sold minus our name on it.They simply put their name on the product as if it was theirs and it was marketed as if THEY made it.This is just the same as Toyota and other auto makers do.They contract out to the oil companies to supply their oil.In the owners manual that you list it says that:"Genuine Toyota motor oil has been specifically tested and approved for all Lexus engines".Any oil that meets API standards and that is licensed to carry the API logo and starburst have to be tested by API,therefore it would qualify as being specifically tested and approved to be used in a Lexus.If Lexus requires an API or ILSAC GF-3 oil,almost any oil meets this standard,even the 85 cent per quart stuff.API certification is voluntary and very expensive.The oil that carries the API donut and or starburst can only do so after money is paid to API to have the oil tested and if it passes,certified.It is as I said,voluntary.All oils must be done this way to be able to carry the API donut and or starburst.go to www.api.org It explains how this works.Your argument that Toyota oil is superior to anything else is wrong,plain and simple.To truly find out what is in the Toyota oil,send and have it analyzed.I believe that you will be very disappointed in what you find out is in your Super Oil.I have an idea that Wal-Marts SuperTech will do as well if not better than the Toyota oil in an analysis.Also,the manual doesn't say that Toyota oil is superior to anything else,if it did,it would be lying.If the oil you say is superior was truly made to certain specs for the Toyota engines,there would be several oils needed to meet the respective engines needs.There would be oil made for 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines because different size engines stress oil in different ways,hence an oil for each engine size.Once again,your argument just doesn't hold up.And finally,of course Toyota and for that matter,all car makers are going to put their names on their motor oils,this does not however mean that they are superior to anything else.

motorguy22

I believe that Toyota oil is rebadged oil from Castrol,Havoline etc.saber,you are the one pushing this Superior Toyota oil,you should be the one providing the 'proof' so to speak,of it being superior.Once again,send a sample and have it analyzed to see what is in it,then every one can compare it to others and see who makes it.Also as others have stated,if the Toyota oil is so superior,why do some dealers use other oils such as Mobil and Valvoline?

ekpolk

Sabre: I don't think Toyota is trying to deceive anyone. Ironically (in the context of this thread), they're doing exactly what you believe is the objectionable evil of BITOG: trying to make money selling oil. If GTMO really was functionally different, and necessary to the survival of Toyotas (ignoring the millions that have enjoyed long lives without it), then Toyota would clearly say so. Case in point: Toyota Type IV Automatic Transmission Fluid. I'm not sure about otherToyotas and Lexi, but mine, with the VVT-i V-6 and 5-spd auto carries with it a very clear requirement to use only Genuine Toyota Type-IV ATF, and no others. T-IV is clearly a fluid different from Dexron and the others, and is necessary for the trans to operate correctly. With respect to oil, my manual clearly recommends GTMO, "or equivalent, whereas for ATF, it's Type-IV ONLY.

Conclusion: where a fluid really is different, and necessary/beneficial compared to "standard stuff," Toyota is very much unafraid to say so and does.

Now, please show me a picture of a manual page or bottle label that says GTMO is something other than standard API SL oil and must be used instead of other brands.

steviej

iTrader: (1)

Exactly!

Of course Toyota is going to say that thier oil is specifically manufactured for their engines. They are going to say that so the general consumer will put Toyota oil in their Toyota. They want you to buy Toyota oil becuase it is simply more revenue/profit for them!!!!!

What Toyota will NOT say is that you CANNOT use any other oil other than Toyota Genuine Motor Oil. Saber, do you NOT agree with this?

sj (using Mobil1 synthetic and lovin it!)

AudiJunkie

Who said that OLD TOYOTAS cannot run well on dino oil? These are new cars we are talking about now, they require a better grade of oil in general. Is it a waste to pour M1 into a 300k TOYOTA? Probally. Is it a waste in a 2002 Lexus? Probally not. As far as ARX goes, it is for cars that had spotty service...used cars. If someone used good oil from day one at a reasonable interval, who said there is a problem or need for ARX? I would use it anyway at about 50k intervals, no harm done, unlike solvent flushes. ARX will prepare a used car for synth. An engine needs to be clean to go extended synth drains. What would Saber do with a used sludgy car??? Switch it to G-T oil and pretend it will solve things? lol. Does G-T oil offer extended drains? Ha ha. Probally G-T oil is a response to past sludge issues???

BitOG is about finding a good oil formula and interval for your car...nothing else. The sponsor, Schaeffer's Oil, does not even get the attention it deserves there. It carries Mercedes and VW test certs...does TOYOTA even have their own test sequences or just rely on ISLAC?

"saber,you are the one pushing this Superior Toyota oil,you should be the one providing the 'proof' so to speak,of it being superior.Once again,send a sample and have it analyzed to see what is in it,then every one can compare it to others and see who makes it."

well, how about a VOA...just to find out it is SUPERTECH equivalent QS. Is is cloaked GC or A Saab Synth? (aka Euro M1 0w-30 Polar Long-Life) I would eat a jug of it if it was that good. Fact it, Euro ACEA A3 sequence is about 10x longer in the oil eating machine (25 hours verses 250 hours) than the API SL test that allows make-up oil to be added. (A3 does'nt allow any...ghasp) Does G-T oil carry any other mfg specs??? Just API??? and TOYOTA test sequences??? I dunno, but my GC carries about eight to ten rigourous international specs.

PS i love my fancy synths, but I suggest dino oil over synth in many cases. Mostly diesel-rated HDEOs with MB 228.3 specs. I am using Shell Rotella 10w-30...a heavy 30 weight. Dino...5-6k intervals...M1...8-9k...these are MAX figures. If a family member gets a new TOYOTA and is not a Mobil 1 - type person...I would just plop a case of Havoline or Syntec Blend at their feet, problem solved.

After this point, responding to this thread is a waste of my time. If anyone cool wants to EM me with question or discussion, feel free. I am on AudiWorld B6 Forum and MBforums.org C280 (W202) forum too.

PSSS Motul is the designer oil of fancy-boys if anyone here wants great poser oil...it is tippy-top quality.

http://motul.com

"wonder, is there any other place besides Ferrari that i can get some Shell Helix Ultra 10W-60, the ONLY oil Ferrari recommends for the Enzo"

You don't want it, too thick for your car. I understand that Syntec 5w-50 has similar basestock and adds as the TSW Motorsports 10w-60 for the M3, tey the Syntec if you want...great oil but way thick.

saber

My question to you was "Do you all think Genuine Toyota 5W-30 Motor Oil is just a relabeled, repackaged existing 5W-30 motor oil product? YES OR NO ?? If your answer is YES, please provide the name the chemically identical existing product."

Could you please answer this question directly?

nthach

Motul is poser oil, WAY too overpriced. And if Toyota/Lexus/Scion wanted us to use a certain oil, they would put a label or notice on the oil cap, liek how Porsche and Mercedes AMG put a sticker saying something like Mercedes-Benz recommends Mobil 1 which is factory installed in your engine, or like GM puts a notice on the Corvette's oil fill that says Engine Oil Fill - Use Mobil 1.

saber

Agreed, but the Toyota Genuine Motor Oil may still chemically unique in certain characteristics which are beneficial to Toyota engines in some ways. Same situation with Dexron Auto Trans Fluid. Toyota claims Genuine Toyota Dexron ATF fluid is special in some ways: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/gtatf.jpg http://www.saber.net/~monarch/gtatf2.jpg Same situation with Brake Fluid. The bottles of Genuine Toyota Brake Fluid say it is "specifically designed by Toyota engineers to give superior performance in all Toyota Brake Systems where DOT 3 brake fluid is recommended." So the questions at hand are whether these statements are just marketing hype or whether they are legitimate? And are these products merely rebottled and relabeled existing products or are they chemically unique in some characteristics because the Toyota engineers made the decisions about the lube-base stocks and additives found in them?

mburnickas

Well I must throw in my limited understanding here. Someone said it best, it is repackaged oil, bingo. Toyota does not make oil; never has & never will. There are only a handfull of manufactures that do. Toyota is Not any better then most oils and it is not chemically improved etc. All the Toyota fluids must pass their proper ASTM, GM, or SAE standards, period. Either it passes by a small % or a large%. It does not matter, it pases. If it is soooooo good show the standards it passed on the bottle (i.e. ASTM D-445, ASTM D92, ASTM D-2270, etc). If you need the standards I can get them since I use them day in and day out.

Someone makes Toyota oil, brake fluids etc. It is not Toyota. Example, I know for a fact that Ford coolant is just Prestone re-labeled when I had my diesel. You either pay $5 for Prestone or $6.95 for a cool Ford (motorcraft) black bottle. Do I really care what the bottle says, nope. I go by what gives me the best performace in my car. If you want, go buy the fancy color labels & wait till Lexus says, Use only approved Lexus windshield washer fluid. Lexus’s bottom line is dollars.

Since I am an engineer, you design to “some standard” and go from there. You pick the fluid and now build the parts. You do not build the parts and say, “now we need a fluid” since that is the tricky parts. That is why [I think] they came up with the BS statement of “specifically designed by…” what a total propaganda.

Take their fancy ATF. It must pass the good old Dexron 3 standards (GM6417M). It either passes it or not. Also Toyota T-IV fluid must pass their respective standard; which in reality just a normal ASTM spec. Not breaking new ground here.

Another one is Amsoil, Mobil etc. They all buy the base stocks from the same place & then tweak then to pass there certain specifications.

So, bottom line is unless Lexus/Toyota has some “new-and-improved proprietary spec “, all their fluids must pass the same old global-standards. But you are more then welcome to pay some % markup for some regular oil since that is the Lexus way.

PitBull

OK, I here you, but in 2004 in the Lexus LX470 and GX470 5 speed automatic transmission Toyota changed the spec. for their transmission fluid to a life time fill fluid, they even deleted the dip stick on the transmission. This new spec. is ATF WS (World standard) the owners manual states that the only fluid that can be used is Toyota ATF WS and no other fluid can be added or it will cause damage to the transmission. I've checked this out with one of the best Toyota/Lexus parts guys in the country and he also stated it was new and that there is no equal ATF fluid to the new WS fluid. I understand that Toyota spec'ed this fluid out and someone is making it for Toyota but at this point in time there is no one else making anything that is compatible with this new WS ATF. What's your take on this??

PS- this stuff is real, real, expensive. No one will be doing a transmission flush with this stuff If you tow they recommend a 60K mile service where they change the filter and the fluid in the pan with only the WS fluid.

mburnickas

Well Lexus is not the first for this “fill for life”. My Ford Mustang Lx 5.0 (1991) had this and so does my Father 2004 Ford exploder. It seems this is a growing trend for some stupid reason. No clue, why but I like to have a dipstick and drain plugs. My mustang had stickers all over the thing saying, Trans is sealed, take to dealer……So far after 110,000 miles and nothing done, my co-worker who bought it just sold it. Still going….

As Toyota is the first and others might follow soon if this specification [ATF WS] is going to be more Global. If not, others will not care and they [oil people] will not conform to this spec. Based on what I have seen in the last 10 years it will take a few months, but I think other manufacture, Mobil, Red line or Amsoil will make an alternate fluid.

ekpolk

Whoa there Sabre, you're the one asserting that "Genuine Toyota Motor Oil" is something special and different. So let's not be confusing the burden of proof. That said, I say that GTMO is what the only unambiguous language from Toyota says it is -- an SL rated, energy conserving motor oil, no more, no less. Beyond that, I can also infer that it's a plain dino oil, since it's almost unthinkable that if they were bottling a synthetic, they would not loudly be taking credit for doing so.

If you want us to believe the improbable -- that there is some special and different about the GTMO formula, you need to tell us what it is (and so should Toyota). Your own statement about it, ". . .but the Toyota Genuine Motor Oil may still [be] chemically unique in certain characteristics which are beneficial to Toyota engines in some ways" (see above) reveals much. I note especially your use of the word may, which plainly indicates to me that you're simply speculating, I surmise from Toyota marketing hype, that GTMO is different, but you don't really know this. If you did, why would you say "may" when instead you could have told us exactly how it is different. It's pretty obvious that you can't.

Getting back to your question, and your demand for a "yes or no" answer. If we were in court (yes, I am a lawyer...), I would object, and any judge worth his or her salt would sustain the objection. Why? Because you are trying to manipulate the audience by demanding a yes or no answer to a question that cannot be fairly and honestly answered either way. In short, you're trying to put words (of your choice) in my mouth. I simply won't allow that. Again, all we can really tell for sure is that this is an SL rated motor oil. The rest of Toyota's language, which you recite well, is just vague advertising fluff. If you're buying into it, please tell us specifically why (note, I'm not unfairly confining you to a yes or no, you've got the floor, go for it).