RON430

Autocar June 20, 2001

Made in Germany by Wolfgang Konig

Popular Myth: German Cars are Utterly Reliable

‘An enviable reputation, sure – German cars tend to be built like tanks, last forever, are as sturdy as Rottweilers and utterly reliable – but how true is it?

Well, seems it isn’t true at all. Each year our German sister magazine Auto Motor und Sport, conducts a major survey questioning up to 70,000 car owners. And each year the message is unambiguous: if you want hassle free motoring, you shouldn’t buy a German car.

What you actually need is something made in Japan. Almost any Japanese car will do, apparently, and be more reliable that the best Germany has to offer.

Which, incidentally, turns out to be the Mercedes SL. In Auto Motor und Sport’s reliability league it comes 37th. The top five are the Toyota Carina, Toyota Starlet, Nissan Almera, Suzuki Vitara, and Toyota Corolla. So let’s compare that little lot with what the Germans can muster.

Mercedes’ new best seller, the C-class, comes in 49th, the Porsche 911 is 63rd, and VW Golf 95th. BMW’s 7 series is down at 114 and the Audi A6 is 133rd. Even if you think that German cars do higher mileages than Japanese ones (the survey includes cars up to three years old) those results leave the German car industry with nowhere to hide.

“We’re still fascinated by the rigour with which they follow through agreed processes,” says BMW quality expert Fritz Hartig of his Far East competitors in general, and Lexus in particular. He readily admits that BMW has yet to produce unarguable quality or reliability. Among the biggest current headaches are those complex multimedia technologies which still drive some customers to despair.

It hasn’t stopped BMW from improving its quality image, though. More than 80 percent of the German magazine’s readers now think BMW builds reliable cars, as opposed to last year’s 70 percent.

Among the German manufacturers only Mercedes fares better (90 percent), while Audi’s and VW’s reputations have suffered badly over the last two years.

A little perspective, perhaps, may help; all those prestige makes are still thought far more trustworthy than a typical Ford or Opel. Only 30 percent (Ford) and 25 percent (Opel) say these brands produce reliable cars.’

Hope this helps keep perspective on maintenance issues on Lexus.

Purplexed

Most posts are due to problems from guys trying to maintain their old beasts like 1982-1990 models. Very expensive, but these guys are in love with their cars.

I recently read a slew of complains from 1996 E320 owners with cracked dashes only after a few years. Obviously factory defects.
the only reason I still get the email is that there are some intersting bits of advice on cars that is great.
I appreciate having a Lexus . Few if any problems.
Rejoice!!!!!!!

RON430

Kind of waiting to see if anyone would comment. I should have described the post a little more (I think Purplexed doesn't need the background). Autocar is a UK weekly automotive magazine like Autoweek. Auto Motor und Sport is about the only German auto magazine I have seen. Purplexed raises a good point about how old the cars are in the survey. If anyone reads German, I will keep my eye on Auto Motor und Sport and if I think the survey is in it, I will get it and send it to you for translation.

Like a lot of people here, I have been through a lot of cars, including Jaguar and BMW. But I am firmly of the opinion that no one screws a car together like Toyota. I even think that other Japanese car makers ride a bit on Toyota's coat tails. I have had Mazda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and of course Toyota and the Toyota is quite a bit different than the others. Just had the thirty day service done on the GS. Called the Lexus dealer yesterday and wanted to make an appointment and they asked me when I wanted to go in. They said Friday, Saturday, or Sunday were fine. I was dumbfounded. OK so BMW and Merc were forced to match Audi for the free maintenance for whatever time period, but the Lexus dealer in Fremont is open from 6AM to midnight M-F and 7AM to 5PM saturday and sunday, and they would give me a three hour block to come in and give the car back in an hour, which they did - washed. I would like the free maintenance but I much prefer a car that doesn't break and my first experience with Lexus service leads me to believe that everyone else has a long way to catch up. My seven series (early 90s) was never out of warranty (bought the BMW extended warranty) and it averaged over $4K in bills for three years for maintenance which is purely ridiculous. I hope BMW, Merc, and Audi have improved their reliability. But the survey referenced above took place in Germany and Germans are almost fanatical on maintenance (their auto rules require it), and the results are pretty clear. I am just glad that no one has asked me what the quote from the BMW quality expert is because I am not sure I know. More to a luxury car than leather and wood, reliability may not be number one on my list, but it is tied for number one.

whitediamond

I still like and have enjoyed a multitude of German cars. BMW's,Porsches,and VW's. No where near as reliable as my last 3 Lexus's,Hondas, Toyota's, but still fun. I feel fortunate many times a day with my GS400. Truly a great auto. Not perfect, but soooooo close.

911_to_sc300

We have two cars for sale right now; a 1991 Porsche Carrera 2 (911 coupe) and an Audi 1995.5 S6 Wagon. They are going on the block because we recently relocated to the bay area from a rural area and insurance is outrageous.

We are also quite tired of fixing the damn things. The 911 has been quite reliable but I only drove it for 10k; the cost for routine service (plus brakes, tires, oil changes, of course) is about 950 every 30k. The audi runs about 1300 every 60k and 650 at the 30k service.

We bought two cars to replace the two we are selling; a 1992 sc300 five speed (mine) and a 1982 Mercedes 300CD (turbo diesel). We paid 10k for the lexus and 5k for the mercedes. We expect to have 10k in the mercedes by the time we are done fixing it up to almost new again and we have about 12 in the lexus (1700 of repairs last week; clutch, wheel bearing, serpentine belt and tensioner, synthetic oil throughout).

We bought the mercedes coupe because those five cylinder diesels run almost forever and are very reliable; parts are easy to find and moderately priced. This car will cost less than the lexus to maintain; we can do all of the periodic maintenance ourselves.

We bought the sc300 as it is simply a fast, heavy toyota and, barring a real freak, be dead reliable.

So, except for the mercedes coupe we will probably be sticking with jap cars from here on out. I've owned several hondas and toyotas; not one has ever broken.

Carl

RON430

Really somewhat of a shame. Europeans can do some marvelous things with suspensions. But there is a lot to the owner satisfaction bit. I have been through quite a few cars including BMW and Jag and my wife made positive comments about several of them. But this weekend she took the GS out for some errands and when I asked her what she thought she was very plain, she wants one just like it. She never said that about any other car we have owned. She was also impressed by our Lexus dealer being open for service on saturday and sunday. Just that much easier to not have the car run your life. Been there, done that with BMW. Now what I can't understand is this notion that people who spend a lot on cars love to have extreme maintenance schedules. In 214K miles, my MR2 went to the dealer I think 3 times. Other than oil changes and the odd filter and spark plug change - nothing. You spend over 35 or 40 thousand on a car and for some reason you are expected to enjoy taking your car in every four months to have the ash tray "inspected". Even Lexus could improve this as far as I am concerned. If you are building in systems that require that much maintenance, maybe you shouldn't be building them in. I think self height adjusting headlights (probably a very good idea with the HIDs) is cute but if they need maintenance every four months, leave them off. I just picked that as an example and I have not had any problems with them, just trying to make a point that all the car manufacturers would be well served to listen to IMO.

911_to_sc300

If one is a person that routinely takes a look under one's car (chassis and the hood) to find any fluid leaks, worn out rubber, and other things like that then much of that routine inspecting (maintenance) can be done by oneself. Many Lexus owners I've talked to are people that buy a car and drop it off at the dealer; they rely on the dealer to find potential problems before they wind up on the side of the road.

European car owners are not having their ashtrays and such inspected; it is more routine things such as the brakes, the steering system, leaks, tires; the goal is to not leave you stranded somewhere. That being said I agree with your assessment of Lexus dealer customer service; fantastic. But, it does not come cheap; all those people smiling and offering you coffee, donuts, and free rentacars are expensive and it is reflected in their rates. My mechanic, BMW and Toyota trained, will charge me under 700 for the 120k service; dealer quoted my 1300. The clutch (used OEM parts, too) cost me 600 with tax, parts and labour; did not even price dealer after it quoted me 600 for labour alone.

Too bad Toyota had to create this nonsense image thing called Lexus and just did not sell it as another toyota...a bigger, faster Toyota; just think, they could even name is something unique....soarer, perhaps?

How much are we paying for an image?

Carl

ps: like the sc300 very much but like the 1982 mercedes 300cd we just picked up even more from a visual standpoint.

RON430

Couldn't agree more. While trying to not get broken under the weight of the BMW maintenance, I started looking in more detail at the service actually performed under the inspections. There wasn't actually very much done, most of the work was "inspect". I am sorry to see that Lexus has picked this part of "luxury" car ownership up. Haven't seen a new owners manual but at least Lexus is very up front with you having the right to have the work done by a competent mechanic but not necessarily the dealership. I get the next inspection paid for, after that I may have to decide whether to have the work performed at the dealer or not. Anyone who has been in business has a different perspective about customer "perks" like free coffee and biscotti, fresh plants, etc. The perspective comes from who is paying for it, the customer is always paying for it. Apologies ahead of time, don't get me started on lawyers and lawyers offices. I do like a nice dealership but I will think hard about paying twice for service to get a free bottled water. There are some very, very competent independents around and the dealer needs to compete. I have lost track of some of them but I still have an excellent suspension/chassis/brake place that I will always use. Dealership alignments leave something to be desired. The BMW dealership like the Mercedes dealership used a Firestone dealer down the road for alignments which in this case, was a waste of time. When the BMWs get "bimmeritis" (not my term, but that shake in the steering wheel right around 60mph) it meant a trip to the independent shop for me. Still, can't vent too much. The vast majority of Lexus owners (and bimmer and Merc for that matter) just want to forget about maintenance and for them, the dealer service is appropriate.

black sc

Gosh, you guys hit the nail on the head. Being a owner of several German cars and Japanese cars. Also, being in the car business before also. I can tell you one thing. Dollar for dollar. Japanese cars in general are much better engineered than German cars for reliability, value and styling.
German cars have a reputation I think b/c of Daimler and Benz for creators of the first engine. Ferdinand Porshe with racing plus, the reliable air cooled engines of VW at the time. That is my take but, even German car makers are taking a lesson on economics.

It was like 5 years ago or so when, the 600 SEL came out. It was like $130K car. Everything on that car was electronic and supposedly state of the art. Look at it now. No one would buy that car. Why, well if you have $5K to pay for everytime you bring the car in service. I gets it alright.

Look at the S-class. All the styling cues are curvacious same, with the BMWs. It looks more Japanese than most of the domestic cars. German cars utilize most of the same parts makers such, Bosch, Mahle, Hella, etc.

The parts are very specialzed and repairing them is no easy task. You have to have a degree in Engineering just to fix some of the problems b/c, these German cars have so many idiosyncrasies that are characteristic for these cars. Parts are expensive. Some of the mechanical problems have to be custom fabricated, and forget about modifying the cars.

You have to have not just a lot of money but, most mods on these German cars do not last and way too expensive for most to afford.

BMW and Mercedes have these 3yr no-pay maintenence programs for the last 2 years. Why? The economics of maintaining those cars after those first 4years will be horrendous even for the DIY. Also, people have came to realize that maintaining a Japanese car is better in the long run compared to a BMW or Merc for the same price.

There are two advantages that the Germans have though. First, if you buy a German car usually, it takes about 10 years before it changes over to the next generation for the same model. However, certain Japanese cars have the same record such, as the 2nd generation Supra, Lexus SC series, etc.

Another is safety but, that one is improving for the Japanese cars. The Insurance institute tested certain Toyota trucks. I forgot which 2. One was the Tacoma and the other was the Toyota model of the Lexus RX300. I forgot the name but, they did well in safety. I know it is a truck and SUV but, most of the newest safety technology like, airbags are developed by other European companies anyway. Those options or standard equipment usually reaches to the Japanese market eventually.

Sorry for the long commentary but, I got rid of most of my German vehicles and will likely never buy or lease another German vehicle again.

RON430

Can't say I wouldn't get a German car again but I did back out of the deposit I had on a CL500. But reliability has gotten to be a very big issue for my wife and I and the Japanese, and especially Toyota, are definitely the lead. The rush for the Germans to out gizmo each other is not making things better. Merc in particular seems to be having a fair amount of problems with their current networking scheme, also kind of wonder what the new bimmer seven is going to turn out to be like in reliability. To me, part of a luxury car should definitely be few trips to the shop regardless of how you are treated. For me, the GS may not top the list in every category, the bimmer handling is still something to shoot for, but that reliability issue is a big point for me. Don't think we overlook it here very much but reliability is not really an issue for a Lexus owner. Then again, I am also an ex Jaguar owner and the Germans at least beat them. I think what amazed me most about that survey was that it was taken in Germany. Amazing.