Is Rotor Turning/Resurfacing a Scam?
08-22-07, 08:57 PM
#16
This question seems to come up once a month. As I have turned more rotors/drums and brake jobs than anyone I know (I used to own my own brake lathe) I would just say that under almost every situation-YES-turn them. 100%. Brakes stop via friction. Friction is created with two flat surfaces touch-rotors/lining. An uneven surface will create excessive heat causing glazing on the lining as well as a longer break in period. If you just replaced the pads recently and for some reason would rather install another set and a dial indicator /caliper states the rotor surface is still true-go for it.
Rotors warp for a variety of reasons and heat is the number one factor in brake warping and NOT pad transfer which though possible is not as common as stated above. Lug nut torque and overheated rotors are the common reasons. Overheating rotors comes from not turning the rotors, poor break in, or just hardware failure just to name a few.
There is a difference between turning over 1000 rotors/drums along with a great many brake jobs of performance variety and reading a website. A proper brake job always entails turning the steel as the industry calls it and is far from a scam-it is called a proper service.
Picture for a second your hand pushing against the carpet. Feel the friction? Now using the same force but use 2 fingers instead. See how much longer it takes to stop the same force? Feel the heat difference?
Shops do not want come backs under warranty as a car on a rack for warranty work hinders additional sales as many shops only have a limited amount of mechanics and racks to work with-thus why they want to do the complete job right the first time. I'm not saying shops do not scam people as in my extensive experience dealing with shops almost all of them do to some degree-but turning rotors is just smart business and cost only a few extra dollars.
Rotors warp for a variety of reasons and heat is the number one factor in brake warping and NOT pad transfer which though possible is not as common as stated above. Lug nut torque and overheated rotors are the common reasons. Overheating rotors comes from not turning the rotors, poor break in, or just hardware failure just to name a few.
There is a difference between turning over 1000 rotors/drums along with a great many brake jobs of performance variety and reading a website. A proper brake job always entails turning the steel as the industry calls it and is far from a scam-it is called a proper service.
Picture for a second your hand pushing against the carpet. Feel the friction? Now using the same force but use 2 fingers instead. See how much longer it takes to stop the same force? Feel the heat difference?
Shops do not want come backs under warranty as a car on a rack for warranty work hinders additional sales as many shops only have a limited amount of mechanics and racks to work with-thus why they want to do the complete job right the first time. I'm not saying shops do not scam people as in my extensive experience dealing with shops almost all of them do to some degree-but turning rotors is just smart business and cost only a few extra dollars.
Last edited by Pearlpower; 08-22-07 at 09:26 PM.
08-22-07, 10:05 PM
#17
I respect all the brake experience people have in this board, practical experience is invaluable. But when a customer is at the shop, he is a captured audience and more often or not, under pressure to accept unnecessary procedure, whether the shop intends it or not.
I have personally put 8 brake rotors (Brembo and Rotora) on my two cars, and asked a shop to install two front Rotora BBKs. In all 10 brand new rotors, slight grooving occur within the first month of usage. Unless one cut the rotor every month, he is going to ride on slightly uneven rotors 99% of the time.
The key criteria is what is within tolerance, in the original thread starter's case, he does not have any vibration, squeak, or brake fade to begin with. It is obvious that his rotors condition is acceptable, proven by >53K of trouble free miles.
Also don't be so quick to discount StopTech, who designs performance brakes and have professional with great credentials. Here is one that designs brake and have his life depends on the design through SCCA racing.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_jameswalker.shtml
I have personally put 8 brake rotors (Brembo and Rotora) on my two cars, and asked a shop to install two front Rotora BBKs. In all 10 brand new rotors, slight grooving occur within the first month of usage. Unless one cut the rotor every month, he is going to ride on slightly uneven rotors 99% of the time.
The key criteria is what is within tolerance, in the original thread starter's case, he does not have any vibration, squeak, or brake fade to begin with. It is obvious that his rotors condition is acceptable, proven by >53K of trouble free miles.
Also don't be so quick to discount StopTech, who designs performance brakes and have professional with great credentials. Here is one that designs brake and have his life depends on the design through SCCA racing.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_jameswalker.shtml
James Walker, Jr. is currently the supervisor of vehicle performance development for brake control systems at Delphi Energy & Chassis. His prior professional experience includes brake control system development, design, release, and application engineering at Kelsey-Hayes, Saturn Corporation, General Motors, Bosch, and the Ford Motor Company. Mr. Walker created scR motorsports consulting in 1997, and subsequently competed in seven years of SCCA Club Racing in the Showroom Stock and Improved Touring categories.
Through scR motorsports, he has served actively as an industry advisor to Kettering University in the fields of brake system design and brake control systems. In addition, Mr. Walker contributes regularly to several automotive publications focusing on brake system analysis, design, and modification for racing and other high-performance applications. He is a recipient of the SAE Forest R. McFarland Award for distinction in professional development/education. Mr. Walker has a B.S. in mechanical engineering from GMI Engineering & Management Institute.
Through scR motorsports, he has served actively as an industry advisor to Kettering University in the fields of brake system design and brake control systems. In addition, Mr. Walker contributes regularly to several automotive publications focusing on brake system analysis, design, and modification for racing and other high-performance applications. He is a recipient of the SAE Forest R. McFarland Award for distinction in professional development/education. Mr. Walker has a B.S. in mechanical engineering from GMI Engineering & Management Institute.
08-22-07, 10:14 PM
#18
Mileage means more than a time frame. All rotors will have grooves in it over miles which is exactly why the recommendation of the ENTIRE braking industry is to turn rotors regardless of the reason the grooves or warpage is there to begin with. It is simple physics and you are missing the entire point. Installing new pads with an even surface with warped or grooved rotors which will not have an even surface causes problems.
Pads will eventually wear and bed into a grooves rotor but takes much longer and the potential for overheated and glazed braking is high. Take a look at your brakes the next time you remove them. The pads will bed into the rotor nicely as they wore together . The pad does not stay flat while the rotor has a groove in it. What do you think makes the groove to begin with? When the rotor and pad wear together they are true to each other and are working in the manner they are designed so of course rotors will eventually have grooves in it-it supposed to and Stoptech did not state anything different than that.
Pads will eventually wear and bed into a grooves rotor but takes much longer and the potential for overheated and glazed braking is high. Take a look at your brakes the next time you remove them. The pads will bed into the rotor nicely as they wore together . The pad does not stay flat while the rotor has a groove in it. What do you think makes the groove to begin with? When the rotor and pad wear together they are true to each other and are working in the manner they are designed so of course rotors will eventually have grooves in it-it supposed to and Stoptech did not state anything different than that.
Last edited by Pearlpower; 08-22-07 at 10:20 PM.
08-22-07, 11:19 PM
#19
Agree to disagree. I respect your experience but folks will feel a little cheated when options are not given, or non-profit generating option for the shop is kind of "hidden" from car owners. Perhaps not on purpose but nevertheless consumers does not feel well informed or "scammed", as the thread starter would say.
You may say the entire industry is doing such practice but that has little to do with truth. Microsoft has a monopoly of PC operating system, it does not mean Windows is a good OS. 99% of human beings used to believe earth is flat but we know how true that is. I am not trying to argue with you but to use above examples to show popularity does not necessarily equate to correct practice.
In my case, I re-used two pairs of existing OEM brake pads on new rotors, nothing different from two pairs of new Akebono pads that I installed with other new rotors. As rotor and pad surfaces are reformed every time I press the brake pedal, especially with slots or cross drilled holes in my Rotora rotors that cut the pad surfaces multiple times in one brake application.
At the end, the decision should be with the $ paying customers. Owners won't feel cheated if pros/cons are listed and they made the final decision.
You may say the entire industry is doing such practice but that has little to do with truth. Microsoft has a monopoly of PC operating system, it does not mean Windows is a good OS. 99% of human beings used to believe earth is flat but we know how true that is. I am not trying to argue with you but to use above examples to show popularity does not necessarily equate to correct practice.
In my case, I re-used two pairs of existing OEM brake pads on new rotors, nothing different from two pairs of new Akebono pads that I installed with other new rotors. As rotor and pad surfaces are reformed every time I press the brake pedal, especially with slots or cross drilled holes in my Rotora rotors that cut the pad surfaces multiple times in one brake application.
At the end, the decision should be with the $ paying customers. Owners won't feel cheated if pros/cons are listed and they made the final decision.
Last edited by TunedRX300; 08-22-07 at 11:25 PM.
08-22-07, 11:53 PM
#20
Not to beat this to death, but I know a heck of a lot more about the parts industry and the shop experience than I would care to post about. Not everything is a scam (though as I stated there is much of it out there) and none of this has anything to do with software. This is about brakes and brakes save or kill people. Can a person take 5 year old brake pads and put them on a 3 year old used rotor-of course they can and that is their option. Is it the best option? Of course not. Can a person install new pads on grooved rotors? Of course, but again, not the best option and there is no scam from a high recommendation to surface the rotors.
As everything else there are options and there are the right options. Turning rotors cost at around $10 a rotor. Why risk the potential of glazing new pads, extending the break in period, premature lining wear ,plus the longer braking distance( as only a portion of the brake surface is being used) for $20.00?
My experience-dealing with well over 500 repair shops, selling thousands of brakes, turning over 1000 rotors/drums, dealing with the braking industry directly, as well as personal experience from over 45+ cars. I know just a tad about brakes and yes a long ago I used to just slap on pads without touching the rotor.
On top of this, no shop will give a warranty on a brake job if the rotors are not surfaced for all of the reasons stated above as the liability in the event of a crash is high in a court of law.
But, as you state it is up to the customer on what they want to pay for. I just ask that nobody out there that tries to save $20 on brakes drives behind me as I know my brakes will work when and where I want them to-everytime.
As everything else there are options and there are the right options. Turning rotors cost at around $10 a rotor. Why risk the potential of glazing new pads, extending the break in period, premature lining wear ,plus the longer braking distance( as only a portion of the brake surface is being used) for $20.00?
My experience-dealing with well over 500 repair shops, selling thousands of brakes, turning over 1000 rotors/drums, dealing with the braking industry directly, as well as personal experience from over 45+ cars. I know just a tad about brakes and yes a long ago I used to just slap on pads without touching the rotor.
On top of this, no shop will give a warranty on a brake job if the rotors are not surfaced for all of the reasons stated above as the liability in the event of a crash is high in a court of law.
But, as you state it is up to the customer on what they want to pay for. I just ask that nobody out there that tries to save $20 on brakes drives behind me as I know my brakes will work when and where I want them to-everytime.
08-23-07, 06:37 AM
#21
Not to beat this to death, but I know a heck of a lot more about the parts industry and the shop experience than I would care to post about. Not everything is a scam (though as I stated there is much of it out there) and none of this has anything to do with software. This is about brakes and brakes save or kill people. Can a person take 5 year old brake pads and put them on a 3 year old used rotor-of course they can and that is their option. Is it the best option? Of course not. Can a person install new pads on grooved rotors? Of course, but again, not the best option and there is no scam from a high recommendation to surface the rotors.
As everything else there are options and there are the right options. Turning rotors cost at around $10 a rotor. Why risk the potential of glazing new pads, extending the break in period, premature lining wear ,plus the longer braking distance( as only a portion of the brake surface is being used) for $20.00?
My experience-dealing with well over 500 repair shops, selling thousands of brakes, turning over 1000 rotors/drums, dealing with the braking industry directly, as well as personal experience from over 45+ cars. I know just a tad about brakes and yes a long ago I used to just slap on pads without touching the rotor.
On top of this, no shop will give a warranty on a brake job if the rotors are not surfaced for all of the reasons stated above as the liability in the event of a crash is high in a court of law.
But, as you state it is up to the customer on what they want to pay for. I just ask that nobody out there that tries to save $20 on brakes drives behind me as I know my brakes will work when and where I want them to-everytime.
As everything else there are options and there are the right options. Turning rotors cost at around $10 a rotor. Why risk the potential of glazing new pads, extending the break in period, premature lining wear ,plus the longer braking distance( as only a portion of the brake surface is being used) for $20.00?
My experience-dealing with well over 500 repair shops, selling thousands of brakes, turning over 1000 rotors/drums, dealing with the braking industry directly, as well as personal experience from over 45+ cars. I know just a tad about brakes and yes a long ago I used to just slap on pads without touching the rotor.
On top of this, no shop will give a warranty on a brake job if the rotors are not surfaced for all of the reasons stated above as the liability in the event of a crash is high in a court of law.
But, as you state it is up to the customer on what they want to pay for. I just ask that nobody out there that tries to save $20 on brakes drives behind me as I know my brakes will work when and where I want them to-everytime.
For all the DIYers out there, you save a bunch of money doing all the work yourself, for all the ones that resort to having a shop do the work, you expect that shop to give you good service and stand behind their work, in order for that to happen, the shop is going to do everything possible up front to ensure you are happy and don't come back...
08-23-07, 07:55 AM
#22
Agree with most of the people here. Turning/resurfacing is very important. Although, I don't get it done every brake job. I have my rotors turned every other brake job. I'll do just the pads once myself, then at the next job, bring it somewhere to do the rotors also.
08-23-07, 01:38 PM
#23
I have to agree with Mitsuguy... you said it exactly right. For my shop as well, its one flat rate no matter what. So why take the risk of a squeel, shimmy, or decreased braking force... In the over 6 years i have worked for Lexus, i have never done a brake job without turning or replacing rotors. Can you get away with not turning rotors, sure.. Is it going to be the same quality/performance as if you turned the rotors? In my opinion, no.. But again, thats my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own.
08-23-07, 08:36 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
Easy guys and play it nicely.
I alway resurface the rotors every time I do the brakes job including on my own cars. If the guy don't want to do it that fine by me too, because it's his car, not my car and my car stop good...
Some people wanted to save a few bucks to find out that it will cost them more than what they saved.
I alway resurface the rotors every time I do the brakes job including on my own cars. If the guy don't want to do it that fine by me too, because it's his car, not my car and my car stop good...
Some people wanted to save a few bucks to find out that it will cost them more than what they saved.
08-24-07, 04:50 AM
#25
I bring my rotors to O'Reilly, $7 per. Not bad, not bad at all. Nice surface, new pads, nothing works better!
08-27-07, 05:27 PM
#26
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
thanks for all the replies.
The Lexus dealer charges A LOT extra to turn/resurface the rotors - it's not $10/rotor!!!!
I seem to recall I saved about 50-100% to just have the pads installed vs. pads plus rotor turning/resurfacing.
The Lexus dealer charges A LOT extra to turn/resurface the rotors - it's not $10/rotor!!!!
I seem to recall I saved about 50-100% to just have the pads installed vs. pads plus rotor turning/resurfacing.
08-27-07, 11:05 PM
#27
Driver School Candidate
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Does anyone know the specifications from Lexus on how THICK the front rotors and the rear rotors are when new?
Does anyone know the specifications from Lexus on how THIN the front rotors and the rear rotors are allowed to get before they must be replaced with new rotors (discs)?
Thank you,
Marc
06M3
01RX300
Does anyone know the specifications from Lexus on how THIN the front rotors and the rear rotors are allowed to get before they must be replaced with new rotors (discs)?
Thank you,
Marc
06M3
01RX300
08-27-07, 11:27 PM
#28
Does anyone know the specifications from Lexus on how THICK the front rotors and the rear rotors are when new?
Does anyone know the specifications from Lexus on how THIN the front rotors and the rear rotors are allowed to get before they must be replaced with new rotors (discs)?
Thank you,
Marc
06M3
01RX300
Does anyone know the specifications from Lexus on how THIN the front rotors and the rear rotors are allowed to get before they must be replaced with new rotors (discs)?
Thank you,
Marc
06M3
01RX300