wwest

is a more common term for firmware upgrade.

jberger

Wow, Don't know quite where to start on this, but there is quite a bit of incorrect info in this thread. Fluids are cheap, hard parts are expensive. Routine flushes are a great way to keep your car running well over a long period of time. If you're leasing, why bother.

1) Motor Oil wears out, it's a fact.
Oil is charged with 4 main duties:
a) Lubrication, reducing friction between surfaces.

b) Wear Prevention, replacing metals lost on surfaces (zinc is commonly used) and to prevent damage on startup.

c) Encapsulation, grabbing dirt, metals, fuel, water etc and absorbing/encapsulating these to prevent additional wear/damage to internal components

d) Cooling, although the water jacket is a primary mechanism for removing engine heat. Oil is utilized in direct contact applications and has a huge impact on overall cooling efficency.

That's why Trucking companies and machine shops have labs to test for wear, cleaning ability, lubicity, etc. Just because the film still lubricates, it doesn't mean it is still good for the other uses. Thus if you use Dino based oils you should change it frequently, Synthetics can run longer due to thier engineered ability to withstand heat and the higher detergent content. Premium Synthetics even longer, as long as they are used with a specialized filter system and regular testing for effectiveness. Even if you don't drive alot, you should still change the oils to prevent acids from building up and harming the motor and change the filter (using the best you can afford) often.

Radiator Flushes
Yes, you should flush your radiator, just because the anti-freezing properties are still good, does not mean the anti-wear/rust capablities are in effect.

The goop and scaling associated with radiators is usually a result of the water used in the system. You should only used distilled water, not tap water, to prevent scaling and goop from developing. Put a pot of water on the stove, let it boil for a while, the minerals in your water will form a ring of sediment around the pot, the same thing happens in your radiator and it dramatically affects the abilty of the system to cool. So what if the system is sealed, that just means the fluid is not leaking out, not that the fluids are in good shape.

Also, the temperature changes will eventually cause the corosion inhibtors to wear out. And as the PH of the water changes, it becomes one big battery, breaking down internal engine metals. Lexus uses a specific antifreeze formulated for the type of radiator and engine metals, it's one of the best long lasting types out there, but should still change on a regular basis.


Tranny:
Again, the fluid is not just for lubrication, it's for friction, antiwear, encapsulation, etc.
That's why you should change it often. Sure there's a sump, but somethings got to help it get down there. That's where encapsultation helps out, also, turbulance and pressure keeps things from staying in the sump all the time (except for metals which hopefully collect on the magnets)
Friction co-effecents can and will change as the fluid is heated and cooled, keeping the fluid changed helps keep the friction constant, wearing the tranny as intended and prolonging life.
Automatic transmissions soak up massive heat, this alone kills the fluid over time. Lexus uses a premium fluid which is excellant for long durations, but still not a miracle fluid, you gotta change it.
A tranny cooler is an excellant idea if you want to keep the car, lower temps mean longer life for all fluids.

Differential. Same as the tranny, LSD requires an expected friction co-effecient to work properly. Those friction modifiers wearout just like everything else so you need to change those too.

Brake Fluids.
Again, these wear out, but it's mostly heat related. Hitting the brakes creates massive friction which creates massive heat. The bigger calipers on the post 97 models help with fade, but the fluid still takes a pounding. High temp fluids help resist fade/breakdown, but do change over time as a result of the heat cycles. As any SCCA racer and they'll tell you they change the fluid before every meet, it keeps the system dependable.
Brake Fluid has a major affinity for water, if will absorb it from everywhere, seals, resivoir cap, etc. Change your fluid at least once a year, more if you are autocrossing or just hard on the pads. Also, the ABS Pump and accumaltor both need to be flushed to remove the water. You do not wanna see the prices for replacing those types of components. They are hard to find rebuilt becuase of the liablity issues, thus are DAMN EXPENSIVE.

BTW: Minor timing changes should be possible via the lexus engine programmer. We are not talking a huge amount, but some shift correction due to age, wear, etc. maybe a few degrees. I don't know for sure, but I'd be suprised if it's totally factory fixed.

So once again, fluids are cheap, hard parts are expensive. Change your fluids often and use the best quality you can afford. In most cases the Lexus fluid are best (Tranny and Radiator), you should be using a minium of Mobil 1 and Amsoil/redline perferably in the motor. Also, NO CHEAP FILTERS, buy factory, Mobil or Amsoil, no use spending good money on fluids if you use a cheap filter..

Cheers!
Jayson

willard west

And here I was really seriously considering purchasing an ML320 made in Alabama in spite of everyone's feeling that the ML's lack of reliability was the result of it being built in the US and more specificically Alabama.

And being originally from Arkansas I have even defended Alabamans(sp) from these remarks. You have just made me pretty thoroughly ashamed that I was born and raised in the south.

From the top.

"1. Motor Oil wears out, its a fact."

Then you might want to advise the many thousands of dealers thoughout the US that buy inexpensive RECYCLED motor oil in bulk. Apparently you are not aware that there is an absolutely huge and profitable industry dedicated to profitably recycling "used" motor oil.

As far as I'm concerned the remainer of your "factual" dessertation goes downhill from there and is really not worth further rebutting.

jberger

Wow Will, What an incredibly technical rebuttal of the facts.

Starting with my location. That's a true winner right there. I guess we should forget the entire space program which originated in Huntsville , or perhaps the Patriot missile, Adtran, Cybex, SCI Systems, Healthsouth etc. Or maybe should just ignore the fact that Birmingham is 2nd in the nation (New York is first) with Top rated banking institutions like AmSouth, SouthTrust, Regions, Morgan Keegan, Colonial, etc.

You're right, we are a bunch of inbred piglets with cloven hooves. I should just slap the tires back on my mobile home, grab my wife/sister and get on up to a real place like Whitewater Arkansas! Wow, what a great arguement.

Then we get to the really good stuff
"Then you might want to advise the many thousands of dealers thoughout the US that buy inexpensive RECYCLED motor oil in bulk. Apparently you are not aware that there is an absolutely huge and profitable industry dedicated to profitably recycling "used" motor oil. "

You're right, those dealers wouldn't possibly use an inferior product just to make a buck. No, that could never happen. How much of this recycled oil are you using? Care to fill up your car and run it for say 10K miles?

Just cause it's profitable doesn't mean it's the best way to do something.

Let me hear a proper rebuttal to the post.

Wanna debate the chemical changes in Antifreeze?
How about the shift of Friction Co-efficents in Transmission fluid.
Nah, let's stick to a talk about where I live and how you're dad and beat up my dad. Then maybe a chat about which blue colored replacement light bulb looks better. That would help us all.

willard west

But first just how far in the backwoods are you?

Back in Arkansas in the late forties I remember pumping water and then boiling it in a kettle out side over an open fire for my mother to wash clothes in, and you're right, a scum would always develop around the kettle as the water boiled away.

But today that seems like it must have been eons and eons ago.

Today I just simply can't imagine finding a public source of water that would readily exhibit the symtoms you describe.

But, again, from the top!

"1. Motor OIL wears out, its a fact."

Are you now recanting and admitting that this statement isn't factual at all? Belittling the dealers who do this (just as I would also) and pointing out that you nor I would never likely ever use it still doesn't make your statement true.

Would I use it in my lawnmower engine for instance? Yes, and that's exactly what I sometimes do, recycled mobil 1 straight out of my GS.

Recycled oil has been thoroughly filtered to remove the contaminants held in suspension (encapsulation{?}), and some oil additives which do wear out with normal use are replaced.

Radiator flushes:

The factory installed radiator fluid remains in my 92 LS, 75K miles, to this day. I think I remember adding about a quart a few years ago but other than regular testing that's all of the "maintenance" my cooling system has had. Now, maybe I shouldn't be relying on its appearance, not murky and retains the original factory "color", but in my many years of prior experience I relied totally on these factors to judge when to "flush" or replace my engine cooling fluids.

Lexus perfection. Credit where credit is due.

My 92 has done so well in this category because Lexus has done a really damn good job of overall design. My past experience has been that the major source of contaminants leading to breakdown of the chemistry of engine cooling fluids was due to contamination from other parts of the engine. That just simply doesn't happen in a Lexus, its engine water jacket seemed to be most completely sealed from this.

In my traveling computer salesman days I went through two Ford station wagons, a 68 and a 75, each giving me over 250K miles of service traveling here throughout the pacific northwest

These were FORDS mind you. New exhaust systems, yes, several. New mechanical fuel pumps, yes, too many to count. New water pumps, yes. New voltage regulars, yes. New starter motors, yes.

Number of engine or automatic transmission failures, ZERO.

Please note that none of these failures, all very common to vehicles of the era, could have been prevented by changing out fluids on a regular basis.

Tranny fluid:

Is hydraulic oil. It has two principal functions, It "powers" the analog computer (valve body) and various analog sensors that "control" the functions and modes of the transmission. It also serves as the "motive" force to engage clutch packs and move the varous servos used to change gears in ways other than with the clutches. Use of a hydraulic fluid which can adequately lubricate and help to cool parts is a secondary requirement, but even as such, a very necessary requirement.

Motor oils are specifically formulated to hold small particles in suspension (encapsulation) so they are drained away with regular oil changes. Anybody ever inform you that's it a good idea to run your car's engine for a few moments BEFORE you drain the oil? It was/is good advice.

The transmission fluid your manufacturer recommends is specifically formulated to allow ALL particulate matter to settle into the oil "sump", where, unless it is accidentally or intentionally disturbed, it will remain until your vehicle is junked or the transmission needs service for reasons other than lack of "regular" fluid changes.

The only thing that I know of that might cause you to want or need to change out your transmission fluid is if it becomes overheated. And a simple "smell" or visual test performed on a regular basis will detect that early enough to prevent any damage to other transmission components.

Diff'l fluids:

This is a tad more difficult, but just a small tad.

Other than maybe the LX series, and maybe a few early RXes, mechanical LSDs don't exist in the Lexus "world", so let's address that issue first. Diff'l with LSDs do require a lubricating "fluid" within a specific viscosity range in order to oerate properly just as has been said. But we already know that oil doesn't really wear out, so what factors might be involved here that would, might, cause the diff'l fluid's viscosity to change?

Heat? Sure. But for normal "use" heating the manufacturer would have provided for viscosity in those range in the design.

Abnormal heating = abuse... no real need to go there.

Contamination? Water from condensation is the only likely source, and that will normally go, evaporate, away with regular use.

Evaporation? A lubricating oil? NOT likely.

In all of the years I have driven cars, trucks and tractors the only diff'l failure I have experienced was in a 1960 Ford Sunliner.

And NOW, FINALLY, REVENGE AT LAST!

Oops, sorry, wrong line.

Brake fluid:

The ONLY failure mode for brake fluid is for it to become contaminated, and since its naturally hygroscopic, LOVES, "attracts" water, that is is most typically contaminant.

So how do you get water into brake fluid?

At the filler cap, only.

Even if brake fluid were subject to some sort of normal wear and/or use of failure, of which it is NOT, I would NEVER trust any mechanic working for a dealer to delve into my brake system.

Way too chancy, my brakes are my life!

jberger

Still trying to understand the relivance of my location to this conversation. You know things have changed in the south since you were born here, no use perpetuating myths, it's not the backwoods.

Radiators and Water.
Public water sources will always contain minerals, that's what boils out to produce sediment, thus if you use tap water, you will experiance sediment buildup. You should use distilled water, it prevents build-up as the minerals are not present. They have not invented new water in the past 50 years, so the same thing still happens today.

I have/use an antifreeze tester, but that only shows the percentage of antifreeze in the system, not the condition of the system itself. You have to check Ph to know if the coolant is correct. Incorrect coolant Ph leads to acid formation which are not good for the metal, seals or the pump. Antifreeze contains conditioners for the waterpump for lubrication and anti-rusting. In addition, anti-foaming agents are used to prevent cavatation and inefficent heat transfer to the radiator fins. This stuff does not show up in a typical antifreeze test, you can choose to run a chemical analysis or simply change the fluid on a regular basis.

You cannot apply old experiances to these cars, the level of sophistication simply doesn't allow for that type of conjecture. The metals utilized in these newer engines is light years ahead of old ford motors and requires special treatment.

I'm not recanting any part of my post.
I also reuse my old oil, in my case for a power washer, it eats oil for breakfast so I just use my old mobil1 there. My point was, the oils condition was in fact deteriorated, and not suitable for it's primary use. Most People would consider that worn out. If you have to send it to a lab and have it rebuilt, then it was worn out.
Yes, I change my oil when the engine is hot. That way the oil flows easier, and less oil is trapped topside, thus more gets changed. What's the argument there?

No point in talking about how well old Ford's held up, I could say the same thing about my Blazer, I don't know how many times the odo's gone around and it's still going. The Lexus powertrain is far removed from the 60's tech to which you refer. The level of sophistication requires a different approach and maintenance technique.

Yes, Lexus is very well engineered and uses high quality materials, but that does not mean it's perfect. Parts move, things wear out, thus they need to be replaced, regular fluid changes lower wear, thus increasing the life of the components.

Why are you against preventive maintenance?

Regarding Transmission Fluid.
A visual test is not enough, sure it's a good indication of lubrication condition but does not reveal the condition of additives or friction modifiers. You should flush the transmission regularly and after the flush, drop and clean the pan and replace any filter material, even if it looks fine. Adding a transmission cooler will also enhance the lifetime of the tranny. So if keeping the transmission cooler helps prolong the life, we must assume that heat is a factor in transmission life.

And finally the brake fluid issue.
In a perfect world, water would only enter thru the cap, but over time, seals open, hoses crack, water enters.
Water is a primary contributor, but heat cycling makes a big difference also. The boiling point of the fluid changes as it's heat cycled. So it should be replaced regularly, especially if you drive hard. Change your fluid then brake hard, you will feel the difference.

Sounds like you've had poor dealer experiance, I can understand that. (I hate my local infiniti dealer) but a qualified, trustworthy mechanic is worth his wieght in gold.

Erfan

Very good debate going on here. Please continue gentlemen. It is very interesting reading to say the least. Jberger you are very knowledgable in regards to fluid maintenance. Should I change my oil every 4 months if i only cover 3k miles in 6 months? Should you change the motor oil if you go over a certain amount of time even if you havent reached the mileage that is recommended for the oil change interval?

jberger

"Should I change my oil every 4 months if i only cover 3k miles in 6 months? "

Yes, the interval should be Time or Miles, which ever comes first. I don't drive my convertable much in the winter, but I still change to oil to keep the acid levels low and the get the condensation out of the system. This is less of an issue if you use synthetics, but as I've stated before, it's cheap preventive maintenance.

Cheers!
jayson

jahummer

Gee,

I never dreamed this topic would create such a fabulous debate here

I must say that text books will agree with jberger, but Willard's concerns regarding screw ups at the dealer should be a warning to owners to check behind any mechanic's work once completed as best as possible like I always do. By the way, I have had all the fluids flushed and changed in other vehicles I have owned and have never had any problems because of that.

Willard, is your disdain for maintainance based on personal experience?

wwest

Feb. 14, 2000
King County Metro Transit switches to re-refined motor oil

King County Executive Ron Sims today announced that the County’s Metro Transit fleet, among the largest in the nation, recently became one of the first major municipal bus fleets in the country to use re-refined motor oil.

King County has earned an international reputation for innovative environmental programs and is a recognized leader in resource conservation through the reuse of materials. Sims said other King County agencies have been using re-refined oil in their cars, trucks, and large equipment since 1992, and in 1998 the Medic One emergency vehicles adopted its use. Following the successful conclusion of evaluations that showed re-refined oil to be equal in price and performance to virgin oil, Metro is now also using re-refined oil. The local supplier, Lilyblad Petroleum, furnishes them with SAE 15W40, 10W30, and 40W oils.

Metro Transit’s fleet includes about 1,140 diesel buses and 90 diesel-powered transit vans operating more than 35 million miles per year. Metro estimates it will use roughly 80,000 gallons of re-refined oil a year.

"The switch to re-refined oil in King County's Metro Fleet is a win-win for the environment, residents and the future of our children," said Eric Nelson, Environmental Purchasing Coordinator. "The best part is that motor oil can be re-refined over and over again. In fact, it's entirely possible that your grandchildren will be using the same oil to make their car run smoothly that you're using now in your automobile!"

Capturing and re-refining used oil keeps improperly discarded used motor oil from entering rivers, streams, lakes and ground water supplies. According to the American Petroleum Institute, recovering the motor oil from one oil change of a typical automobile protects a million gallons of drinking water - a year's supply for 50 people. Re-refining also saves energy. Less energy is required to produce a gallon of re-refined oil than to produce a gallon from crude oil.

So how does it work? According to API, used oil is first cleaned of contaminants such as dirt, water, fuel, and additives, through vacuum distillation. Then it’s treated to make it suitable for the final product. Finally, the re-refined oil is combined with fresh additives to make a finished lubricant. Because re-refined oil must meet the same API requirements as virgin oil, the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Postal Service are able to use re-refined oil in their fleets.

"With our buses we have a responsibility to deliver thousands of people to their destinations every day. In addition, we have a responsibility to protect our resources," said Metro vehicle maintenance manager Jim Boon. "We hope Metro can set an example for other transit systems, as well as individuals, to use re-refined oil in their vehicles."

More information about the King County Environmental Purchasing Program is available online at http://www.metrokc.gov/procure/green . For more detailed information about re-refined oil, call Lilyblad Petroleum at 1-800-562-8424.


Updated: Feb. 14, 2000


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The details.

jberger

King County made it's purchase decision based on Enviromental impact.
'More information about the King County Environmental Purchasing Program is available online at http://www.metrokc.gov/procure/green "

And the motor oil they are using is re-refined (REBUILT), I didn't see anything about never chaning fluids.

So what's your point here?

That it can be done (never argued it couldn't be done) or that is SHOULD be done?

wwest

I have NEVER suggested not changing out your motor oil on a regular schedule. I simply stated that the motor oil NEVER "wears out" to rebutt a supposed factual statement that it does.

And no, I am not against scheduled maintenance routines at all. In my many years at Boeing I likely arthored more of these than any ten of you will see in a lifetime.

What I did say is that only your dealer and his kids bound for college will benefit from needlessly changing out other fluids that have historically never been bothered with in this fashion.

Almost every product, or each and every type, has been improved in some way or ways in the past 30 years. To step up now and say that you need to change out diff'l fluid or tranny fluid, etc, when so many aspects of these products, the fluids and the mecs, have been improved so radically seems just utterly stupid to me.

But, in the end it's your money that you're wasting, so go for it!

jberger

Well, I agree this has gone on too long. Certainly not a flame war, just two hard heads with strong opinions.

Here's my point of contention, Will.
From what you have been saying, or what I read into your posts, you believe that as long as the system is sealed, there is no damage to the lubricant other than from overheating. You change your oil because it gets dirty, and don't change other fluids because they are sealed. Lubricants do not wear out, so there is no need to change them. Especially given the advances in lubrication technologies.

If that is really what you are proposing, then I still disagree, but who cares, if it works for you fine.

I think fluids wear out for reasons other than dirt entry and the chemical components age/change as affected by heat, friction and aging. Thus changing fluids on a regular basis is solid preventative maintenance becuase Fluids are cheap, hard parts are expensive.

Lubricants have become more complex, becuase the systems in which they operate have become much more complex. The operating rules have changed and regular fluid changes are part of the scheduled maintenance proceedure.


Motor Oil
If the old didn't wear out, then why did it need to be re-refined? If it was just dirt, then a filtering process would have done the job. But the oil itself had to be re-refined to meet the required specification. If it had to be rebuilt, then it was worn out.

The other fluids still need to be changed, regardless of the sealed nature of the system. Keeping the fluids changed regularly extends the life of the affected components.

Brake Fluid absorbs water and changes boiling points due to Heat Cycling. Regular flushes remove the contaiminates and returns the fuild to it's specified boiling point.

Cooling System, These fluids are designed to be changed on a regular basis to keep the fluid in specs. Regardless of the sealed nature, the Ph of the fluid changes over time and can become corrosive to the internal surfaces. A simple % volume test for the presence of antifreeze does not reflect the chemical condition of the fluid. You can send a sample out for lab testing or simply flush and replace, regardless, the fluid will change over time.

Transmission:
Regular fluid changes (Defined as a complete fluid flush and pan drop) will keep the system in better shape then just keeping the same fluid in the system until the tranny dies.

Diff.
Regular fluid changes keep the mechanicals operating in specification, cut down on noise and limit wear.

Okay, I'll shut up now. I doubt there is anything more to add on this so we will just have to disagree on fluid changes.

willard west

I would think it would be obvious to everyone by this time that motor oil DOES NOT WEAR OUT!

Re-refining is the way recycled oil is "binned" according to viscosity. Recycled oil recieved at the "plant" is a WIDE mixture of viscosities.

Rebuilding is simply the process of adding the various additives back into the oil after the re-refining process, the very same way it was done with the "fresh" dino stuff.

But let me say it this way. If you wish to change out these other fluids on something of a regular basis then you would be extremely remiss if you do not have them tested at a lab.

The only possible "normal" contamination of your transmission fluid should be the residue from the clutch wear. If something is going, has gone, wrong inside your transmission, new fluid will not "fix" it. You need to know what is happening and the way to do that is with an analysis.

Brake fluid. Contamination from outside. AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN. Your brake system must sustain internal pressures in excess of 3000 PSI, if the brake fluid can't escape then you can bet nothing can get in.

seanl

I just had a local shop owned by a good friend do most of my 60K mile service on my '97 LS400, changing all the fluids, except oil & filter (I do that) and both air and a/c filters. The only other fluid he didn't change was the brake fluid, I'll do that when I replace the front pads, as the originals still haven't worn out yet.

Total cost, $327 + 5.5 quarts of Mobil 1 & Purolater Pure One filter, for a grand total of $360.

I called Lexus of Clearwater and asked about the 60K mile service, as I was interested in how much they charged. It's $1,100, and that includes all the fluids, both a/c and air filters, plugs and wires. I was like WTF, plugs and wires???? They're not even LISTED in the 60K mile service...there it was, she was BS'ing me trying to build some perceived value.

I know that some folks don't like to work on cars, and that's fine, I can respect that, but Lexus is really ROBBING people blind charging $1100 for the 60K service.

I love a high quality vehicle as much as the next guy, and have been thrilled over the past year of owning my LS, but I'm not rich so I can't afford to pay what the local Lexus dealer charges for service and parts.

Lexus of Tampa charges what's called List+ for parts, that's right, they charge in excess of the list price for parts. I needed a CD catridge for my LS since it didn't come with one, and Lexus of Tampa wanted $50+. I bought one online for around $30. That's a 40% savings.

Now I'm not knocking the quality of the dealership experience, b/c I don't have any firsthand knowledge there. I'm sure they do a good job.
But I guess I have a problem with Lexus/Toyota overcharging for EVERYTHING to do with servicing/supporting the Lexus line of cars.

Regarding the debate in this thread, I agree, changing fluids is key to long component life.

For me, it's Mobil One 5W30 every 3K miles. The trans fluid is also a no brainer, @ every 30-45K miles, heat kills the fluid, makes sense to invest in frequent changes since these transmissions are not cheap. I think that the rearend lube can go a bit longer, like every 60K miles. Coolant flush Once every 18 months. This is cheap insurance if you're planning on keeping a car long-term. If you're leasing, obviously you'll only have the car 30-50K miles so naturally why bother.

Regards,
Sean Lewis
Tampa, FL
'97 LS400 Coach Ed.
'94 Acura Legend LS
'93 Mustang Supercharged 500hp