soooooo (Scooter Accident thread)
03-02-08 | 09:39 PM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
From: Silicon Valley
As a member of this forum and a rider, I would hate to choose a side. From what I've gathered so far the reckless and irresponsible individual involved in the crash was not directly affiliated with this forum. I did not participate in this event but it seems like it was planned responsibly. I am confident that the last thing anyone on this forum would want is to cause an accident and/or injury to themselves or anyone else. The majority of people I've met on this forum are level headed and would not condone the type of behavior exhibited by this certain individual. I know many people are angry that this happened (as a rider myself I am also angry), but let's try to hold our judgements until we have more information on the driver and what, if any, affiliation he has with this community.
I will extend my prayers to Josh & his family.
-mrurmil (Lexus and Sportbike enthusiast)
I will extend my prayers to Josh & his family.
-mrurmil (Lexus and Sportbike enthusiast)
Last edited by uplusd; 03-02-08 at 09:55 PM.
03-02-08 | 09:44 PM
#19
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/members/63435-jspksoarer.html
The post count of the member shows his is a fairly active poster. Non IS member that signed up for the run. SC400 owner. In his post history on the SC forum section he reports an interesting incident of a 4am spin out. I mean, c'mon, who doesn't know that there's a good chance a car like the SC is gonna spin out on the wet at those speeds? He was a really inexperienced driver and some one on that cruise should have been keeping an eye on his driving, and asked him to split once he didn't obey your cruise rules.
There is always a collective responsibility when youorganise these events, so the group organisers should make a statement clarifying if he's welcome on other uns, and the whole forum should make a decision about whether he's welcome here.
If it wasn't him driving, and its a run organised through this forum section, what are they thinking letting non signed up drivers come along?
AJ
03-02-08 | 09:54 PM
#21
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: CA
I'm still curious- Was the group staying together all going the same speed down the mountain? did this guy get left behind and was catching up? or was the whole group doing roughly the same speed?
All the pics of the cruise showed the group driving with a very small amount of fallowing distance, so I assume they stayed tight together down this portion of the route too.
Maybe the cruise rules need to be updated.
All the pics of the cruise showed the group driving with a very small amount of fallowing distance, so I assume they stayed tight together down this portion of the route too.
Maybe the cruise rules need to be updated.
03-02-08 | 09:56 PM
#22
Law enforcement will deal with the criminal implications of the drivers actions. This forum, and the drivers on todays cruise should collectively deal with their actions, or in actions.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/members/63435-jspksoarer.html
The post count of the member shows his is a fairly active poster. Non IS member that signed up for the run. SC400 owner. In his post history on the SC forum section he reports an interesting incident of a 4am spin out. I mean, c'mon, who doesn't know that there's a good chance a car like the SC is gonna spin out on the wet at those speeds? He was a really inexperienced driver and some one on that cruise should have been keeping an eye on his driving, and asked him to split once he didn't obey your cruise rules.
There is always a collective responsibility when youorganise these events, so the group organisers should make a statement clarifying if he's welcome on other uns, and the whole forum should make a decision about whether he's welcome here.
If it wasn't him driving, and its a run organised through this forum section, what are they thinking letting non signed up drivers come along?
AJ
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/members/63435-jspksoarer.html
The post count of the member shows his is a fairly active poster. Non IS member that signed up for the run. SC400 owner. In his post history on the SC forum section he reports an interesting incident of a 4am spin out. I mean, c'mon, who doesn't know that there's a good chance a car like the SC is gonna spin out on the wet at those speeds? He was a really inexperienced driver and some one on that cruise should have been keeping an eye on his driving, and asked him to split once he didn't obey your cruise rules.
There is always a collective responsibility when youorganise these events, so the group organisers should make a statement clarifying if he's welcome on other uns, and the whole forum should make a decision about whether he's welcome here.
If it wasn't him driving, and its a run organised through this forum section, what are they thinking letting non signed up drivers come along?
AJ
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...85&postcount=1
Last edited by kickin8; 03-02-08 at 10:03 PM.
03-02-08 | 10:03 PM
#23
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
I am not trying to defend, the guy who spun out is NOT the driver of the accident.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...85&postcount=1
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...85&postcount=1
So, on a different forum, the modern vespa one, it was posted that the driver had a major mechanical failure. Has that been confirmed by CHP?
AJ
03-02-08 | 10:05 PM
#24
Law enforcement will deal with the criminal implications of the drivers actions. This forum, and the drivers on todays cruise should collectively deal with their actions, or in actions.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/members/63435-jspksoarer.html
The post count of the member shows his is a fairly active poster. Non IS member that signed up for the run. SC400 owner. In his post history on the SC forum section he reports an interesting incident of a 4am spin out. I mean, c'mon, who doesn't know that there's a good chance a car like the SC is gonna spin out on the wet at those speeds? He was a really inexperienced driver and some one on that cruise should have been keeping an eye on his driving, and asked him to split once he didn't obey your cruise rules.
There is always a collective responsibility when youorganise these events, so the group organisers should make a statement clarifying if he's welcome on other uns, and the whole forum should make a decision about whether he's welcome here.
If it wasn't him driving, and its a run organised through this forum section, what are they thinking letting non signed up drivers come along?
AJ
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/members/63435-jspksoarer.html
The post count of the member shows his is a fairly active poster. Non IS member that signed up for the run. SC400 owner. In his post history on the SC forum section he reports an interesting incident of a 4am spin out. I mean, c'mon, who doesn't know that there's a good chance a car like the SC is gonna spin out on the wet at those speeds? He was a really inexperienced driver and some one on that cruise should have been keeping an eye on his driving, and asked him to split once he didn't obey your cruise rules.
There is always a collective responsibility when youorganise these events, so the group organisers should make a statement clarifying if he's welcome on other uns, and the whole forum should make a decision about whether he's welcome here.
If it wasn't him driving, and its a run organised through this forum section, what are they thinking letting non signed up drivers come along?
AJ
From personal experience I can say I have asked drivers to leave events I have organized because of their unsafe driving, or moved them behind the 'safety car' (me) at the back of the caravan. As in the case of this meet we have a detailed safety discussion about the rules of the drive. Our second year of our annual Tail of the Dragon meet we had someone in our group drive in a dangerous manner on a road heavily populated by bikes. We use a video of that drive to demonstrate what not to do and what will get you ejected from the meet (as well as detailed safety briefing and rules handouts about crossing the yellow, etc).
Right now about all we can do is try to help the folks injured. I'm down to contribute to the fund raiser as well.
03-02-08 | 10:07 PM
#25
I'm still curious- Was the group staying together all going the same speed down the mountain? did this guy get left behind and was catching up? or was the whole group doing roughly the same speed?
All the pics of the cruise showed the group driving with a very small amount of fallowing distance, so I assume they stayed tight together down this portion of the route too.
Maybe the cruise rules need to be updated.
All the pics of the cruise showed the group driving with a very small amount of fallowing distance, so I assume they stayed tight together down this portion of the route too.
Maybe the cruise rules need to be updated.
being part of the cruise, and in the middle of the pack, there was plenty of space in front of me and behind me..... same distance in regular highway driving.
no one should have felt like they were left behind.... as we all had contact #'s and walkie talkies to communicate...
03-02-08 | 10:11 PM
#26
My condolences to Josh and his family. The club should not be blamed because of ones actions. Vespa forum members shouldn't come here either and blame the entire forum.
I'm not with or against vespa driving, but i been in incidents that vespa riders ride like a holes. Swerving through lanes without signaling. Not everyone is perfect and people do make mistakes.
I'm not with or against vespa driving, but i been in incidents that vespa riders ride like a holes. Swerving through lanes without signaling. Not everyone is perfect and people do make mistakes.
03-02-08 | 10:12 PM
#27
Lead Lap
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
From: ClubLexus
I'm still curious- Was the group staying together all going the same speed down the mountain? did this guy get left behind and was catching up? or was the whole group doing roughly the same speed?
All the pics of the cruise showed the group driving with a very small amount of fallowing distance, so I assume they stayed tight together down this portion of the route too.
Maybe the cruise rules need to be updated.
All the pics of the cruise showed the group driving with a very small amount of fallowing distance, so I assume they stayed tight together down this portion of the route too.
Maybe the cruise rules need to be updated.
Mortifer, as one of the organizers in this cruise meet, the safety rules were laid out strictly and any violations of either not obeying the rules would result in not being welcome in any further meets.
the picture you saw of the cruise meet showed a cruise driving with a small amount of following distance. this picture was taken when the whole group came to a halt when cyclists were coming from on going traffic around a corner when we were starting off. we brought walkie talkies and communicated on oncomming traffic.
if you looked at the other pictures, i have clearly stated at least of a space of 1 vehicle or more per between cars this is normal driving on streets or highways. the one you saw with the trees was when we were all halted and we were just leaving, hence why the vehicles in front has larger gaps.
this route had been taken over and over again to ensure safetly of the members attending the event and we stressed over and over again regarding the safetly of others.
answering your question regarding the speed of the vehicles, the group had been told striclty again to follow all speed limit signs and yield the way for cyclists and bikes, you can see that in the first post of the event posting.
there are times where a small portion of the group may be behind due to cyclists or corners and each member was given a map to catch up to when or if they do get left behind. and we have issued walkie talkie channels for communication.
i did not see the whole action nor experienced it as i was in the middle of the group. we left in 2 separate groups to ease up traffic for others.
Club Lexus is not responsible for the actions done by one single member and we all do feel bad for what has happened.
i will be completely cooperative with a fundraiser and would like to do help do anything we can to help out with Josh's family.
my best regards to Josh and his family.
i hope this answers some of your questions and concers about the scenic meet.
-johnson
Last edited by this1b0y; 03-02-08 at 10:25 PM.
03-02-08 | 10:13 PM
#28
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
AJ, you are speculating on what happened and from what you've posted not a direct observer. I asked above for folks to please not do that; we simply don't know and you are immediately assuming the worst possible fault on the part of the auto driver. This may be the case or there may have been mechanical failure... none of us know. Again, law enforcement needs to thoroughly investigate the accident and vehicles involved and until they do we're all just guessing.
From personal experience I can say I have asked drivers to leave events I have organized because of their unsafe driving, or moved them behind the 'safety car' (me) at the back of the caravan. As in the case of this meet we have a detailed safety discussion about the rules of the drive. Our second year of our annual Tail of the Dragon meet we had someone in our group drive in a dangerous manner on a road heavily populated by bikes. We use a video of that drive to demonstrate what not to do and what will get you ejected from the meet (as well as detailed safety briefing and rules handouts about crossing the yellow, etc).
Right now about all we can do is try to help the folks injured. I'm down to contribute to the fund raiser as well.
From personal experience I can say I have asked drivers to leave events I have organized because of their unsafe driving, or moved them behind the 'safety car' (me) at the back of the caravan. As in the case of this meet we have a detailed safety discussion about the rules of the drive. Our second year of our annual Tail of the Dragon meet we had someone in our group drive in a dangerous manner on a road heavily populated by bikes. We use a video of that drive to demonstrate what not to do and what will get you ejected from the meet (as well as detailed safety briefing and rules handouts about crossing the yellow, etc).
Right now about all we can do is try to help the folks injured. I'm down to contribute to the fund raiser as well.
There is a lot of anger, and I have a feeling that when the modern vespa forum is read tomorrow, after the unconfirmed post blaming mechanical failure, there may be more. A well thought out statement would do a lot to diffuse that situation, rather than your guys being labelled, wrongly or rightly as an irresponsible bunch who have closed ranks.
Until we get the police reports, any statement, mechanical failure, or bad driving, is speculation.
Andrea
03-02-08 | 10:15 PM
#29
Thank you.
03-02-08 | 10:17 PM
#30
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: CA
The Judge posted over on Modern Vespa that the responsible driver was at the BACK of the pack and that His Problem was a mechanical one. Is the Judge not someone from here that was on the ride today?
Originally Posted by the judge
It's understandable that with misinformation on the internet a lot of hot heads will jump to conclusions and talk big. Though I understand peoples reactions as protective of their group, it is immature regardless to assume something and run with it, most especially when you join another forum and make threats like one member did. That will not be tolerated on any forum no matter who's forum you are joining. Someone in your group is severely misrepresenting your forum and I'd personally like to think better of Vespa owners. https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=10 That kind of childish behavior doesn't cut it on any forum and will only make this tragedy worse.
As someone stated here in the thread, someone saw a license plate and ASSUMED because it was a modified car that they were driving improperly. Raw emotions from the accident involving your Vespa brother may want you to lash out and assume things and blame, but it is not going to help anyone by doing so and behaving this way. The issue that affected this persons car could have just as easily been a honda mini-van. Read on and you'll see why.
The facts are as follows, whether or not you choose to accept them is your personal choice, though denial will not help your friend in any way. Best to accept the truth and take away from the incident that accidents can happen to anyone at any time and everyone should be as alert as possible when on the road.
Fact #1- Josh was hit by a vehicle that crossed the line in a turn today.
Fact #2- The driver of the vehicle did not have control of his vehicle and in that respect was the cause of the accident. (but wait, there's more)
Fact #3- The driver of the vehicle that crossed the line suffered a major mechanical failure.
Fact #4- Due to a faulty braking system part in the electronics control box, the vehicle failed to brake properly and locked the system while coming upon the turn (the only time you actually would hit your brakes to find out that your system is not working properly - hence why this issue was not obvious until he reached the turn). The vehicle locked completely up and slid like it was on glass. Car's do not slow down when they are sliding, that is something we all know. Therefore there was hardly no loss of speed approaching the corner with the wheels locked up. This was a catastrophic failure in the braking system.
Fact #5- The driver of the vehicle was at the very end of the line because he did not want to drive any faster than the average speed on the road. When demonizing him this seems to be something that was overlooked as I do not see this info anywhere in the thread (though admittingly I expect that). The driver was not only at the back of a 20+ car line, he was at the VERY BACK of it. It seems that no one mentioned this that was on the drive today on your Vespa conversation. He was not a "front runner" of the cruise which may have held a higher speed (I can't confirm or deny).
Fact #6- For the reasons listed above you are making a bad situation even worse by acting like someone who is innocent was trying to "Drift" a road that he was barely doing 5 mph over the limit on because the flow of traffic where he was in the line at the very back was actually filled with what you would call "regular" (read: not part of the cruise) traffic. I imagine some may choose to ignore this fact, as it doesn't make for a good story.
What happened today was a tragedy that I hope everyone recovers from and moves on without any permanent damage. I wish Josh and his family a quick recovery and hope that the driver of the vehicle that hit him doesn't suffer from anyone over reacting and making him out to be anything other than the other innocent party in this tragedy. I see two families here that were doing nothing wrong and two families that have been affected by this accident. The problem with an accident like this where something just "goes wrong" without any immediate fault of either person is that there's no one to directly blame and that can cause frustration.
I'm sure we all understand the frustration of it. I wish both Josh and the other drivers family well. Neither deserved to be in an accident today and neither did anything to cause it. It's just how life works sometimes.
As a bystander there today I came over here because I saw that no one was getting the proper info needed to make a decision so I simply came over to deliver it. Even the people that were in the Vespa ride will confirm the facts above if they answer honestly.
Everyone drive safe out there. Things can happen out of nowhere in the blink of an eye. (and if you visit our forum again please be respectful)
As someone stated here in the thread, someone saw a license plate and ASSUMED because it was a modified car that they were driving improperly. Raw emotions from the accident involving your Vespa brother may want you to lash out and assume things and blame, but it is not going to help anyone by doing so and behaving this way. The issue that affected this persons car could have just as easily been a honda mini-van. Read on and you'll see why.
The facts are as follows, whether or not you choose to accept them is your personal choice, though denial will not help your friend in any way. Best to accept the truth and take away from the incident that accidents can happen to anyone at any time and everyone should be as alert as possible when on the road.
Fact #1- Josh was hit by a vehicle that crossed the line in a turn today.
Fact #2- The driver of the vehicle did not have control of his vehicle and in that respect was the cause of the accident. (but wait, there's more)
Fact #3- The driver of the vehicle that crossed the line suffered a major mechanical failure.
Fact #4- Due to a faulty braking system part in the electronics control box, the vehicle failed to brake properly and locked the system while coming upon the turn (the only time you actually would hit your brakes to find out that your system is not working properly - hence why this issue was not obvious until he reached the turn). The vehicle locked completely up and slid like it was on glass. Car's do not slow down when they are sliding, that is something we all know. Therefore there was hardly no loss of speed approaching the corner with the wheels locked up. This was a catastrophic failure in the braking system.
Fact #5- The driver of the vehicle was at the very end of the line because he did not want to drive any faster than the average speed on the road. When demonizing him this seems to be something that was overlooked as I do not see this info anywhere in the thread (though admittingly I expect that). The driver was not only at the back of a 20+ car line, he was at the VERY BACK of it. It seems that no one mentioned this that was on the drive today on your Vespa conversation. He was not a "front runner" of the cruise which may have held a higher speed (I can't confirm or deny).
Fact #6- For the reasons listed above you are making a bad situation even worse by acting like someone who is innocent was trying to "Drift" a road that he was barely doing 5 mph over the limit on because the flow of traffic where he was in the line at the very back was actually filled with what you would call "regular" (read: not part of the cruise) traffic. I imagine some may choose to ignore this fact, as it doesn't make for a good story.
What happened today was a tragedy that I hope everyone recovers from and moves on without any permanent damage. I wish Josh and his family a quick recovery and hope that the driver of the vehicle that hit him doesn't suffer from anyone over reacting and making him out to be anything other than the other innocent party in this tragedy. I see two families here that were doing nothing wrong and two families that have been affected by this accident. The problem with an accident like this where something just "goes wrong" without any immediate fault of either person is that there's no one to directly blame and that can cause frustration.
I'm sure we all understand the frustration of it. I wish both Josh and the other drivers family well. Neither deserved to be in an accident today and neither did anything to cause it. It's just how life works sometimes.
As a bystander there today I came over here because I saw that no one was getting the proper info needed to make a decision so I simply came over to deliver it. Even the people that were in the Vespa ride will confirm the facts above if they answer honestly.
Everyone drive safe out there. Things can happen out of nowhere in the blink of an eye. (and if you visit our forum again please be respectful)