DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

why would they survey someone’s opinion on about a vehicle from who doesn’t own the vehicle. Makes no sense. Trying to survey ALL owners is totally unrealistic

i subscribe to CR and I get the survey. It asks what cars I own specifically and what issues I’ve had if any in a very exhaustive list of questions. I’ll report on our Lexus, our Toyota, our GMC and our BMW. CR only puts up details on those vehicles it receives sufficient statistical responses on.

The G Man

A lot of loyal Toyota/Lexus owners are CR subscribers, anytime you exclude a sector of the population in any survey, in this case: the non CR subscribers, the survey becomes bias. Sample size is also an issue with CR, for Toyota, its easy to find CR subscribers to do the survey but for cars that are rare, the sample size can be so small that the results are unreliable. Years ago, CR use to give Toyota a automatic recommendation without surveys and testing. I remember one of my old Lexus, 2008 GS350 AWD which was listed as not recommended but the GS350 RWD was recommended, the reason given from CR was fit and finish and rattles in the dash area which has nothing to do with rather the GS is AWD or RWD.

Wilson2000

By your definition of bias, yes, CR is bias. By your definition of a small sample size, yes, CR's results are unreliable. Nobody said CR's data is ideal or perfect, but please show me a better source of reliability data. As far as I know, there are no other non-profit entities doing this kind of surveying.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

So you you know what CRs sample sizes are and what percentages of their subscribers own Lexus and Toyota vs other brands?

As well ask knowing how many of their subscribers own rare cars? I don’t think I’ve seen ratings for what I think of as “rare cars” in CR reviews. What is an example of a car they’ve rated you think of as rare with a too small sample size?

Please explain your exceptional inside knowledge...

I agree with Wilson that CR isn’t perfect and for me it’s only one of many data points when shopping for something they rate whether it’s a car or a gas grill. However it’s generally a pretty good data point and don’t know of any resource that does what they do I’d weight any more than them. Generally it seems when folks are so against them it boils down to their own bias not being confirmed vs CR themselves.

Wilson2000

Agreed. Maybe those that hold a grudge against CR have bought a vehicle without researching its reliability. Then, when they are sick of the repair cost, attempt to sell it, but find the resale value is low due to the vehicle's bad reputation. They lose a bunch of money, then, blame CR for the vehicle's bad reputation. In reality, these people can only blame CR for exposing the bad reputation. They're not going to blame themselves for not doing their homework and making a bad purchasing decision in the first place! I get it, there are a lot of emotional reasons to buy a vehicle: styling, panache, performance. However, we have to go beyond these and include logic and reason in such an important and expensive decision.

The G Man

I learn many moons ago to never debate with the owners of the forum, so I will leave it at that, Personally, I use multiple sources to evaluate cars.

Zammer

If CR doesn't receive enough survey replies about certain automobile models and/or years they say so, and don't publish the results. So, no, you probably won't find "rare" car survey results. The "finish and rattles" problems you were unhappy with were not CR "opinions," but information from owners of the vehicles. Have you ever seen an actual CR survey sent to their subscribers? I doubt it. It is lengthy. Can you name any other source of thousands of owner's repair experience with their vehicles
I have read CR for 50 years, and haven't seen what you report as "automatic recommendations without surveys."
Upon what do you base the statement that a "lot of loyal Toyota/Lexus owners are CR subscribers? Are you aware that some late Lexus models do poorly on CR surveys? Are you aware of anything. (I'm not a forum "owner"--whatever that is, and find your posts not worth reading.)

The G Man

Again, any survey that excludes a segment of the population is bias and inaccurate. CR stop publishing their minimum sample size, If I remember right, it was very small, something like 200 samples. In 2008, Consumer Reports decided no longer to give automatic “recommended” ratings to all Toyota models based on their previous history, you can google the rest.

Wilson2000

Nonsense! CR is not "excluding a segment of the population." As I questioned before...you expect CR to survey all owners of all makes and models?

Some CR data sampling may be smaller than ideal, so possibly less accurate than ideal, but it is better than nothing and better than all other ratings.

Since you keep repeating the mantra, please explain how CR is bias.

The G Man

All other surveys sample the general population, not a specific group of people.

olgzr

I’ve filled out their surveys in the past. There is no way I could answer their questions on a car I don’t own. You have to own and drive the car they are asking about to have the in-depth knowledge needed.

The G Man

You don't understand, the debate is that CR only survey their subscribers. Meaning that all the people in their survey have a common interest, a bias, which makes a less reliable.

Wilson2000

Let's be practical...Nobody has the resources to survey the general population. I've never received a vehicle survey other than CR's, so, if anyone is doing random general population vehicle surveys, they missed my house.

CR surveys their members because they are what makes up the Consumer Union. They have a mailing list, and they know they will get a decent return on their survey investment dollar. While this makes the survey bias, to some degree, how else could they do it without going broke?

You're holding CR to a standard that is unattainable. By your definition, everything is bias. Thus, it comes down to a matter of degrees. The point of my original argument was that CR's data is better than JDP's (who is for-profit, and who sells their name for use in advertising).