SgtLip

@toyotaman7 Not really up on my cars but isn't the NX350H, RX350H and RX500H regular Hybrids and not EV?
If so, how would you calculate the comparison with a Tesla EV or any other EV which is all this article was comparing? I would need to read it again but I thought it compared EV and Gas.

Gerf

You must have locked your rate in about 20 yrs ago for that price, it's around 18 cents now. As everybody knows it's the transportation and other fees that are the bulk of power bills...in my case the actual electrical charge makes up about 1/3 of the invoice.
And most of that electricity still is generated by natural gas and coal so you're indirectly still burning fossil fuel however you choose to look at it.

toyotaman7

Its comparing the cost of ownership of EV versus the current technology. Hybrid still uses only gas vs. EV that use electricity. Calculate cost total cost of ownership of Tesla model Y: (Electricity based on driving average 12,000 miles (20,000km)/ year + maintenance + purchase price depreciated over 10 years. Same calculation for NX350h since it is similar in size. I think pure gas cars (Non-hybrids) at this point do not make much sense and will cease to exist over the next 5 years or less. Hybrids on the other hand make more sense at the moment since the fuel consumption is much lower, has a very small battery (compared to EV or PHEV) hence smaller initial environmental foot print and price difference with pure gas is very small.

It should also be total cost of ownership , which means the purchase price depreciated over 10 years of useful life plus fuel (Gas or electricity) plus maintenance.

SgtLip

@toyotaman7 Sorry but I guess I'm missing your point. The article and this thread is titled " Is it cheaper to refuel your EV battery or gas tank?" I don't see where or how you can associate it with a HV that you only pay for gas as the battery is charged by way of a gas engine or the braking power. You're not directly paying for the electricity the gas engine and braking generates.

I also don't see how this article addresses the "total cost of ownership" you mention and why the arbitrary 10 year depreciation period. There are tons of costs that go into producing a gallon of gas as well as 1 kWh of electricity. One can only assume these costs are spoken for in the price per gallon as well as the price per kWh. Anything more than that wouldn't be equal except maybe the cost of the EV Charger itself.

But, it's all good. Again, sorry but I don't see how you can get HV costs and compare them to the price of electricity. But you do, so in the end it's all good. Glad you got something out of the article. It was written and I posted it primarily for those who are on the fence about gas vs EV and a cost comparison.

lsft

I'm on a tier based plan at this time, so it's not time of use pricing. With most expensive tier, delivery, regulatory, tax (13%), ontario rebate (11.7%) I also did not include the service charges that you must pay even if you don't own a plug vehicle (since you still need to pay for it for your home energy) , I get about 0.127 / kWh. You never charge the full 18.1 kWh. Assuming charge 70% of the 18.1 kWh would cost about $1.6 per full charge

Uspeed

It is about same or more expensive depend on the vehicle, in California, PGE cost to charge at home from $0.40 to $0.55, for ev plan cost is $0.28

Unless, someone has solar or free charge at work etc, EV does not make sense, I like 450h+ , i.e PHEV you get best of both world.

E46CT

I understand the thread is (probably?) about charging a PHEV vs. ICE car. But maybe for EVs in general as the WP article suggest?

Anyway...forget about costs for a second, a full BEV is inherently nicer/easier to live with and inherently safer as well, for various reasons. Instant response, instant authority. Then there's all the other technology (if it's done right) you get that's super convenient and makes your life easier. Involving 1 action instead of 4 separate ones for example, to accomplish an often repeated mundane task. Rarely having to touch a brake pedal, never having to mess around with keys. the list goes on and on. So the argument for an EV shouldn't solely be "what's cheaper to fill/fuel." (though I think EV still has vast majority of gas cars beat there).

So based on my own calculation, vs my most recent new lexus hybrid,using the worst case scenario for the supercharging network at 50 cents a k/wh at peak time, in the most expensive area, EV vs gas is a wash. about the same. Assuming $5 a gal. So all the other benefits are icing on the cake. but good thing i don't pay 50 cents a kwh.

SgtLip

All the comparisons in the article are BEV's vs ICE. There is no mention of PHEV's or HEV's in the article.
But I get the point you are making. There are great benefits of having a BEV like the ones you mention. I would own a BEV IF they miles per charge were at least 500 miles. But even then, the charging stations are so sparse it just isn't reasonable in my opinion. My son is an electrical engineer at the Kennedy Space Center. He told me way back the USA is not ready for EV's, the grid is nowhere ready for such thing. I'm no electrical engineer, I barely know how to plug into an outlet, but even I know that. Just wish some important politicians could see that.

drox

NB: Dollars are Canadian, and prices are in Ontario.

I get about 6.2L/100km in my NX450h+. Premium gas is $1.83/L, so I pay $11.3/100km.

Electricity from the wall varies depending on the plan, I'm on a tiered plan and not time of use. Electricity costs about $0.105/kWh. The car tells me I get 20kWh/100km which is $2.1/100km. Factoring in some losses when charging it's probably closer to $2.30/100km.

Note that public charging in Ontario is very expensive but still worth it when compared to gas. Often it's $2/hour and gets me 30km of range (assuming the car is quite discharged) which is $6.66/100km.

nitrolada

Not a good comparison at all..PHEV vs EV. One is a lot more flexible than the other . Drove a fully charged model y for one hr last winter on 407, parked it went to mall and it was at 26% power already

They have very different capabilities

nitrolada

It can be the case in Toronto/Ontario, it's upto you to select TOU or tiered flat rate

https://www.ontario.ca/page/electricity-price-plans


Also , most people charge their vehicles at night where rates are now 2.4c/kWh from 11pm to 7am in Ontario

https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1...ity-price-plan

itsadavy

Haha, I love how you brought up the part about sitting there for 2 ish hours and charge cause that's kinda what I'm doing.

Unfortunately, I haven't recorded my fuel stats ever since I got my 450h+, but I would say my driving and fuel-up behaviours are pretty consistent now. So after recording roughly 7,000 kms for the past 6 months, my total fuel charge (Gas+Charge) is $218.60 CAD. The reason why this number isn't closer to $90 CAD ($15 per month for gas to make sure the gas is not going stale) is because I had road trips and obviously the EV range won't suffice.

Now in regards to why my EV charge fee is at $0 is because I have only been charging at free charging locations .... And I will continue to do so until either there aren't any more nearby free charging locations or my strata allows the installation of a level 2 charger...

When I charge, I usually sit in a car and bring out my laptop to work or I sit at a nearby cafe to work.
https://www.fuelly.com/car/lexus/nx_...nwoods/1198833

Just doing some quick analysis, I would've racked up roughly $800 in fuel cost for 7,000 kms if I had a NX350H with an average fuel economy of 6.0L/100km and average fuel cost of $1.90/litre, and $1,463 for a gas car with an average fuel economy of 11.0L/100km with the same average fuel cost.

So I saved roughly $581 compared to a NX350H and $1244 compared to a regular gas vehicle driving 7,000 kms.

Stretching this analysis to 5 years and assuming all things equal, the total fuel cost for 5 years for
- my 450h+ would be $2,186
- NX350H would be $8,000
- Regular Gas Vehicle would be $14,630

So to anwer the original question of this thread, in my case, it is a lot cheaper. YMMV

Now really extrapoliating this even further for a BEV,
I for some time drove a Model Y Performance for a total of roughly 9,600kms, and I would needed to charge at the super charger from 20-80% every 2 days during the cold months where I live (Oct-Mar avg temp 7 C) since I couldn't charge at home. The cost for each charge was about $21 CAD (this was 2 years ago, not sure what the prices are nowadays). Now assuming that this is true for only 50% of the year (so like I charge a total ~92 times during the cold months), my charging costs for the cold months would be $1,932.

Now assuming during warmer months, I charge every 4 days for the half of the year, and the cost of each charge would be around let's say $17 CAD, that would run me $782 for a total of ~46 charges.

My 5 year projected cost would be $13,570(96,000kms). Now discounting this to match the total kms for 5 yrs(70,000 kms) for my 450h+, the total cost would be around $9,894 for the Tesla. The total charging cost would defintely be a lot cheaper if I had charging at home ....

And yes during this time 2 years ago, there was free charging as well, but their max charge time would usually be 2/3 hrs like it is now. I'm not that committed/crazy enough to be chilling inside or near my tesla for 8 hrs of charge....

Now obviously the above calculations are done with some assumptions, but I don't think there would be a factor that would dramtically change the magntitude of the difference in costs between the different vehicles...

jihui88

When I was purchasing NX350h, the Lexus dealer asked me why do I want a hybrid vehicle? To save the environment or to save fuel?
Dealer also said that one needs to drive 80k+ miles to make up for the carbon emission that is used to manufacture hybrid batteries, and this is about the lifespan of a lithium battery.

And my answer is, to save money on fuel because if I want to save the environment, i would go with a gasoline car. The gas prices are uncertain; it can cost you $4/gallon today and $6/gallon next year. And the electricity bill is also getting more expensive. If you least the car, it will probably get a new car before the lifespan of the hybrid battery, and that should save you around 30% on total fuel cost.

If you care about the environment, gasoline cars are more environmental friendly. In most states throughout USA, we use gas to produce electricity, it is about 40% efficiency since we lose about 60% of energy through delivery from power plant to the consumers.

toyotaman7

Are factoring delivery charges into your electricity cost? It is a hidden line down the bill. You have to divide by number of KWh to get $/Kwh. In my area in GTA the average between High, low and cheap rates including delivery is about $0.19.

toyotaman7

Do you actually have this new proposed night rate? From what I hear from people that signed up there are few catches that caused their total cost to actually increase. .

Regardless of which rates, your price includes = cost of electricity + delivery + taxes.