Forced Induction on the Soare V8/SC400- PROOF!!
01-23-04, 03:56 PM
#31
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Hi Guy's,,,,
Thanks for the report on me Ollie,,,your a gentleman mate.
For those of you looking at it on a Race side of things,,maybe not worth it.
But for shear FUN,,I cant stop grinnin...Best for the Night was 14.2 sec..
Ryan,,you are rite..with the standard diff ration...I need distance for speed..hahaha
For Blitzing other cars from the street traffic lights it is awesome,,hahahah
It is a big rush each time ya plant it from the start...
Yes..is an open wheeler diff,,yes it did smoke both wheels.....
Torsen TT ratio diff is to be installed..see what that does..
But,,For town driving its fun ..I dont want a 10 sec car for normal everyday driving...I want a little of both worlds...I would be totally pleased to do 13 sec...I am there for fun,,I am not a competitive person..so long as I am happy,,thats all that counts to me
Most cars givin the distance will do high speeds.....so speed is not what I want..I know my car can do well overe 200Kph.....I want instant throttle for Stop light blitzes..hehehehehe
my car went down the strip fully laden,,about 1,800Kg..I way 110kg myself hehe ( I know,,Fat Bastard) hahaha
My Engine has done about 300,000 K's...And it still takes the floggin I give it...
So once I do a 5.0Ltr version 1UZ with a Screw Type pumpin 10-15 psi into a 8:1 Comp...Then life will get scary..hahahaha...But thats awhile away..
I am sure I could beat a Turbo 1UZ from the start,,but once there Snails kick in,,It's Hasta-La-Vista Neil Baby...hahahahahahaahahahaha
But they way the car is now,,at least my Girl can drive it without any drama's..She to has a little fun Starting from the Traffic Lights..heheheheh
She acually blew off a Ford BOSS 260 with a Vertex Blower on it from the lights last week...hahahaha.I am so proud of her They were claiming 300-400Kw ATW
Thanks for the report on me Ollie,,,your a gentleman mate.
For those of you looking at it on a Race side of things,,maybe not worth it.
But for shear FUN,,I cant stop grinnin...Best for the Night was 14.2 sec..
Ryan,,you are rite..with the standard diff ration...I need distance for speed..hahaha
For Blitzing other cars from the street traffic lights it is awesome,,hahahah
It is a big rush each time ya plant it from the start...
Yes..is an open wheeler diff,,yes it did smoke both wheels.....
Torsen TT ratio diff is to be installed..see what that does..
But,,For town driving its fun ..I dont want a 10 sec car for normal everyday driving...I want a little of both worlds...I would be totally pleased to do 13 sec...I am there for fun,,I am not a competitive person..so long as I am happy,,thats all that counts to me
Most cars givin the distance will do high speeds.....so speed is not what I want..I know my car can do well overe 200Kph.....I want instant throttle for Stop light blitzes..hehehehehe
my car went down the strip fully laden,,about 1,800Kg..I way 110kg myself hehe ( I know,,Fat Bastard) hahaha
My Engine has done about 300,000 K's...And it still takes the floggin I give it...
So once I do a 5.0Ltr version 1UZ with a Screw Type pumpin 10-15 psi into a 8:1 Comp...Then life will get scary..hahahaha...But thats awhile away..
I am sure I could beat a Turbo 1UZ from the start,,but once there Snails kick in,,It's Hasta-La-Vista Neil Baby...hahahahahahaahahahaha
But they way the car is now,,at least my Girl can drive it without any drama's..She to has a little fun Starting from the Traffic Lights..heheheheh
She acually blew off a Ford BOSS 260 with a Vertex Blower on it from the lights last week...hahahaha.I am so proud of her
They were claiming 300-400Kw ATW
01-23-04, 04:18 PM
#32
Neil:
NOW THAT'S WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FOR THE STREET, THIS THING HAS TO BE FUN!!! SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE ALOT OF GUYS OUT IN THE SHORT ROMPS. THE TURBO WILL BE GREAT ON A LONG, UNCROWDED STREET.
ALTSTADT
NOW THAT'S WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FOR THE STREET, THIS THING HAS TO BE FUN!!! SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE ALOT OF GUYS OUT IN THE SHORT ROMPS. THE TURBO WILL BE GREAT ON A LONG, UNCROWDED STREET.
ALTSTADT
01-23-04, 07:40 PM
#33
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that crazy low end torque would make the car a crazy drift show machine~ on another hand, that means the car would be totally undrivable in rain which means i'll have to skip school for sure when it rains~
on another hand, that means the car would be totally undrivable in rain which means i'll have to skip school for sure when it rains~
02-04-04, 10:14 AM
#35
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Originally posted by VSsc400
please confirm that the car is putting down 500rwtq. possible to see a dynanometer readout?
thanks.
please confirm that the car is putting down 500rwtq. possible to see a dynanometer readout?
thanks.
Lets see some paper!
02-04-04, 01:57 PM
#36
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DavesC400
The dyno results weren't supplied in hardcopy but were supplied on a disk and we're currently waiting for Peter Scott to post them on PLANETSOARER (http://planetsoarer.com/). If you'd read the post properly you would have seen that nobody was claiming 500RWHP! I clearly stated the car was getting 170+rwkw and 700nm torque. Someone here then did the conversion to rwhp and rwtq. Even your quote is 500rwtq, not 500rwhp. Looks like YOU got your wires crossed. Hopefully the dyno chart will get posted shortly and you can see for yourself. If not I'll chase up the chart myself and post it here.
The dyno results weren't supplied in hardcopy but were supplied on a disk and we're currently waiting for Peter Scott to post them on PLANETSOARER (http://planetsoarer.com/). If you'd read the post properly you would have seen that nobody was claiming 500RWHP! I clearly stated the car was getting 170+rwkw and 700nm torque. Someone here then did the conversion to rwhp and rwtq. Even your quote is 500rwtq, not 500rwhp. Looks like YOU got your wires crossed. Hopefully the dyno chart will get posted shortly and you can see for yourself. If not I'll chase up the chart myself and post it here.
So lets all be happy 
02-04-04, 02:53 PM
#38
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Philly,
Not really angry dude. I can understand the scepticism, but I've seen the car and was present at the dyno day when the car pulled these figures. Believe me, there aren't many people more anxious to get the dyno chart published than me. Just a little frustrating when people seem to think we're making things up. I'll chase the dyno chart up and get it posted ASAP and hopefully it'll put this to rest. Just to get it straight once and for all though.....nobody is or ever has claimed 500rwhp.
Not really angry dude. I can understand the scepticism, but I've seen the car and was present at the dyno day when the car pulled these figures. Believe me, there aren't many people more anxious to get the dyno chart published than me. Just a little frustrating when people seem to think we're making things up. I'll chase the dyno chart up and get it posted ASAP and hopefully it'll put this to rest. Just to get it straight once and for all though.....nobody is or ever has claimed 500rwhp.
Last edited by Ollie500; 02-04-04 at 02:54 PM.
02-04-04, 07:11 PM
#40
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Please resend the dyno info to me - I haven't got anything yet.
My preferred email is
peter2.scott@state.sa.gov.au
I don't worry to much comparing hp and tq readings from one country to another.
In Melbourne I can drive 40 minutes between exact same brand dynos at two different workshops and get 20 rwKW difference - that's 30 odd horsepower?
Dyno's are great for before and after or having fun with mates doing a shootout - but for ultimate comparisons, uhhh - I just don't worry about it.
Another thing with torque on the dyno is that often it is reported on dyno sheet (in Australia) as Force (N) on a strain gauge. Torque varies at the wheels depending on wheel diameter and needs to be converted using rpm etc. If the bottom scale is in kph, not rpm, then don't sweat the N reading on the other scale - doesn't mean much.
BUT
One thing that always happens with a 5 psi positive displacement blower (and you can pretty much count on this - I have seen it several times) is that YOUR rwpower will increase by 30% and YOUR rwtorque will increase by 30 %.
So whatever you are getting now just multiply it by 1.3 and that's what YOU will get with 5 psi. The beauty of this type of kit (ie positive displacement blower) is that torque down low also increases by 30 % - so whatever YOU are getting now, just multiply that figure by 1.3 and that's what YOU will get after the kit. How much is 30%? - it's heaps. It's a new car. Exhaust and Intake may get you up to 10 % and people rave about how much better the car is. I've driven this supercharged Soarer and I need it so bad !!
Bigger gains are possible, more boost for example, but detonation means you need better fuel, a cooler charge (say water injection) or lower compression (too hard!).
So don't compare numbers from Country to Country - it's a heartbreaker.
5psi is 30 % gain - that's the simple rule. Torque and power.
I prefer the positive displacement blower because torque increases all the way through the rev range - not just up top. So effectively there is up to twice as much total "power" available under the power curve. The car accelerates quicker and feels very very strong.
I like the idea of a new manifold too - I don't really want to have an exchange manifold - I like the idea of having all the parts to put back to stock in the garage if it takes my fancy.
Here is a before and after dyno graph (Soarer with stock headers).
http://planetsoarer.com/happydays/happydays.htm
This page was sort of lost as the link was missing and now it's wrong on the planetsoarer.com page - but the above link works!
Check out the graph - look at the even spread of torque increase - the whole power curve has lifted up - just like having a bigger V8 under the hood.
I still have dreams like everyone of having a polished allow Whipple Screw blower poking through the bonnet by 2.5 inchs, seeing it rock side to side with blips of the throttle, a water/ air intercooler, low comp pistons or Miller cycle cams, big fuel system and custom ECU running 18 psi with upgraded trans and LSD diff - Yahoo! - but really when it all comes down to it and I wake up in the morning, a 5-6 psi positive displacement blower (and yes stock ECU and Stock fuel system is ok) running stock engine will do just fine.
Why the smaller M90 blower rather than the larger M112? - we'll we've talked about that stuff before - some links to other pages here:
http://planetsoarer.com/superchargeJmRoal/JimRoal.htm
In some US states the EGR valve will be a pain for sure. But you guys can send spaceships and land stuff on MARS! - (unlike the rest of the world - who just sail on by or crash into it!) , so I'm sure you modifying a bit of extra pipe can be done.
Here is the dyno chart of the blower before and after. ( I reckon you have all seen it? - It isn't Neil's car - but same kit on Andy's car. By the way I pulled a 164 rwKw with my cammed V8 - 220 rwhp - with this blower kit I would expect minimum 286 rwhp or 210 plus rwKw on same dyno. Dyno's ain't dynos!!)
My preferred email is
peter2.scott@state.sa.gov.au
I don't worry to much comparing hp and tq readings from one country to another.
In Melbourne I can drive 40 minutes between exact same brand dynos at two different workshops and get 20 rwKW difference - that's 30 odd horsepower?
Dyno's are great for before and after or having fun with mates doing a shootout - but for ultimate comparisons, uhhh - I just don't worry about it.
Another thing with torque on the dyno is that often it is reported on dyno sheet (in Australia) as Force (N) on a strain gauge. Torque varies at the wheels depending on wheel diameter and needs to be converted using rpm etc. If the bottom scale is in kph, not rpm, then don't sweat the N reading on the other scale - doesn't mean much.
BUT
One thing that always happens with a 5 psi positive displacement blower (and you can pretty much count on this - I have seen it several times) is that YOUR rwpower will increase by 30% and YOUR rwtorque will increase by 30 %.
So whatever you are getting now just multiply it by 1.3 and that's what YOU will get with 5 psi. The beauty of this type of kit (ie positive displacement blower) is that torque down low also increases by 30 % - so whatever YOU are getting now, just multiply that figure by 1.3 and that's what YOU will get after the kit. How much is 30%? - it's heaps. It's a new car. Exhaust and Intake may get you up to 10 % and people rave about how much better the car is. I've driven this supercharged Soarer and I need it so bad !!
Bigger gains are possible, more boost for example, but detonation means you need better fuel, a cooler charge (say water injection) or lower compression (too hard!).
So don't compare numbers from Country to Country - it's a heartbreaker.
5psi is 30 % gain - that's the simple rule. Torque and power.
I prefer the positive displacement blower because torque increases all the way through the rev range - not just up top. So effectively there is up to twice as much total "power" available under the power curve. The car accelerates quicker and feels very very strong.
I like the idea of a new manifold too - I don't really want to have an exchange manifold - I like the idea of having all the parts to put back to stock in the garage if it takes my fancy.
Here is a before and after dyno graph (Soarer with stock headers).
http://planetsoarer.com/happydays/happydays.htm
This page was sort of lost as the link was missing and now it's wrong on the planetsoarer.com page - but the above link works!
Check out the graph - look at the even spread of torque increase - the whole power curve has lifted up - just like having a bigger V8 under the hood.
I still have dreams like everyone of having a polished allow Whipple Screw blower poking through the bonnet by 2.5 inchs, seeing it rock side to side with blips of the throttle, a water/ air intercooler, low comp pistons or Miller cycle cams, big fuel system and custom ECU running 18 psi with upgraded trans and LSD diff - Yahoo! - but really when it all comes down to it and I wake up in the morning, a 5-6 psi positive displacement blower (and yes stock ECU and Stock fuel system is ok) running stock engine will do just fine.
Why the smaller M90 blower rather than the larger M112? - we'll we've talked about that stuff before - some links to other pages here:
http://planetsoarer.com/superchargeJmRoal/JimRoal.htm
In some US states the EGR valve will be a pain for sure. But you guys can send spaceships and land stuff on MARS! - (unlike the rest of the world - who just sail on by or crash into it!) , so I'm sure you modifying a bit of extra pipe can be done.
Here is the dyno chart of the blower before and after. ( I reckon you have all seen it? - It isn't Neil's car - but same kit on Andy's car. By the way I pulled a 164 rwKw with my cammed V8 - 220 rwhp - with this blower kit I would expect minimum 286 rwhp or 210 plus rwKw on same dyno. Dyno's ain't dynos!!)
02-06-04, 07:00 PM
#43
Lexus Champion
Originally posted by jbrady
Ollie, great first hand info and welcome to Club Lexus
I must say that the power curve is the MOST BIZZARE I have ever seen. It must be one straight up and then straight down on the torque curve. Something is REALLY holding this car back. Probably a combo of exhaust system, ignition timing and fuel curve. To put the above numbers into US perspective the 176Kw = 236hp and the 700Nm = 516tq
The cam timing of the 1UZFE makes peak naturally aspirated torque around 4500rpm. Typically forced induction moves the torque peak up a little in the RPM range but even if it did not and the engine made that 516rwtq at 4500rpm that would = 442rwhp @ 4500rpm Obviously it must be making peak torque MUCH lower... the highest rpm it could make that peak torque at and not exceed 236hp would be 2400rpm
Something is wrong here.
Here are the torque values for each RPM below that would be the MAXIMUM torque at each RPM that would not exceed 236hp. This chart also represents and engine that makes a perfectly flat HP curve staying at 236 from 2400 to 6000rpm... HIGHLY unlikely.
2400 = 515
3000 = 413
3500 = 354
4000 = 310
4500 = 275
5000 = 248
5500 = 225
6000 = 206
That my friends is a dive bombing torque curve. If it could just hold 300tq at 6000rpm you would have 343rwhp.
So, if the power numbers have been accurately reported the BIG news is that this engine will make a 8 liter like 516rwtq at a measly 2400rpm. The BAD news is that something is choking the power off FAST. David Phan made 325rwhp with his twin turbos running 7 psi and using the butt ugly stock exhaust headers.
I would like to see the dyno from this car and the A/F chart.
Ollie, great first hand info and welcome to Club Lexus
I must say that the power curve is the MOST BIZZARE I have ever seen. It must be one straight up and then straight down on the torque curve. Something is REALLY holding this car back. Probably a combo of exhaust system, ignition timing and fuel curve. To put the above numbers into US perspective the 176Kw = 236hp and the 700Nm = 516tq
The cam timing of the 1UZFE makes peak naturally aspirated torque around 4500rpm. Typically forced induction moves the torque peak up a little in the RPM range but even if it did not and the engine made that 516rwtq at 4500rpm that would = 442rwhp @ 4500rpm
Obviously it must be making peak torque MUCH lower... the highest rpm it could make that peak torque at and not exceed 236hp would be 2400rpm Something is wrong here.
Here are the torque values for each RPM below that would be the MAXIMUM torque at each RPM that would not exceed 236hp. This chart also represents and engine that makes a perfectly flat HP curve staying at 236 from 2400 to 6000rpm... HIGHLY unlikely.
2400 = 515
3000 = 413
3500 = 354
4000 = 310
4500 = 275
5000 = 248
5500 = 225
6000 = 206
That my friends is a dive bombing torque curve. If it could just hold 300tq at 6000rpm you would have 343rwhp.
So, if the power numbers have been accurately reported the BIG news is that this engine will make a 8 liter like 516rwtq at a measly 2400rpm. The BAD news is that something is choking the power off FAST. David Phan made 325rwhp with his twin turbos running 7 psi and using the butt ugly stock exhaust headers.
I would like to see the dyno from this car and the A/F chart.
02-06-04, 08:27 PM
#44
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Hermosa,
My car has Headers...Large ones..
You are rite...funny things were happening with the Dyno..
Above is Andy's car
Mine gave out after first A/F Run figures of
176Kw & 604Nm
Im Melbourne it gave
170Kw & 740Nm 92 RON
Changed Fuel
175Kw & 600 Nm 98 RON
Changed ECU
173Kw & 640Nm 98RON
Car was getting Hot (Dynos dont get them cool)
Knock Sensors picked up Detonation,,Dropped power off IMMEDIATLY.
But Remember..Dynos cant demonstrate what can happen on the road (Air Velocity cooling the charge air)
I AM gunna work on Cam Profiles to change the Power curve..Intake & Exhaust..($2,000 in Aus)hehehe
I AM gunna do Water Injection from a Map Sensor..
See there is something that is overlooked on the Modifing of these engines from the Factory Setup...
That I am NOT going to say on here or any other Forum..As to many Eyes to get FREE Input...
Hermosa..You sound like a very switched on sorta guy..
Think about Changing Induction for Power ??
Go back to a Carby Engine and what you have to do to alter the power curve ?? N/A ??
What does an F1 do ???
I am not looking for Power figures...just Altering were a Torque curve can be made to move to a different spot in the Rev Range !!!
Look at all this from an N/A point of veiw...
Once thought over,,Move to F/I..
Now compare
Top Mount F/I....Mine
to
Front Mount F/I....Davids LS
It will become clear to you why the Torque curves are in different places.
No,,I am not talking about Intercoolers...
I am not trying to be a Smart **** here either...I am trying to explain differences in Setups/Engines Etc.
The Funny thing is....I have only ever seen Andy's & My car showing RESULTS from Top Mount/Rootes type Etc Blowers anywhere on the Web...I see them Advertised..BUT no Reports on them...Just $$$$$ Signs ???...My car has been round a Race Track,,,Been on a Drag Strip..Been on a Dyno..Everything is still going as strong as...I have now covered about 5,000k with it on...Its a Daily Driver...It gets driven Hard..
I dont see ANY Figures or Pics or Documentaries on the FAT one or the Bullet one ??? Why ???
Mine does 14.2 down the strip at 1,800kg weight..Drove in off the street and straight down the strip...done 15 turns down the Drag Strip...Then loaded the Family back up in the car and went home for the night..Jumped in it the next morning,,went to a Dyno Day...Then went on a Day Cruise,,Then went on a Night Cruise...then back to were we were staying,,Then jumped in it the next morning and drove it home 700k...
I see no other stories like this ANYWHERE ????
My car has Headers...Large ones..
You are rite...funny things were happening with the Dyno..
Above is Andy's car
Mine gave out after first A/F Run figures of
176Kw & 604Nm
Im Melbourne it gave
170Kw & 740Nm 92 RON
Changed Fuel
175Kw & 600 Nm 98 RON
Changed ECU
173Kw & 640Nm 98RON
Car was getting Hot (Dynos dont get them cool)
Knock Sensors picked up Detonation,,Dropped power off IMMEDIATLY.
But Remember..Dynos cant demonstrate what can happen on the road (Air Velocity cooling the charge air)
I AM gunna work on Cam Profiles to change the Power curve..Intake & Exhaust..($2,000 in Aus)hehehe
I AM gunna do Water Injection from a Map Sensor..
See there is something that is overlooked on the Modifing of these engines from the Factory Setup...
That I am NOT going to say on here or any other Forum..As to many Eyes to get FREE Input...
Hermosa..You sound like a very switched on sorta guy..
Think about Changing Induction for Power ??
Go back to a Carby Engine and what you have to do to alter the power curve ?? N/A ??
What does an F1 do ???
I am not looking for Power figures...just Altering were a Torque curve can be made to move to a different spot in the Rev Range !!!
Look at all this from an N/A point of veiw...
Once thought over,,Move to F/I..
Now compare
Top Mount F/I....Mine
to
Front Mount F/I....Davids LS
It will become clear to you why the Torque curves are in different places.
No,,I am not talking about Intercoolers...
I am not trying to be a Smart **** here either...I am trying to explain differences in Setups/Engines Etc.
The Funny thing is....I have only ever seen Andy's & My car showing RESULTS from Top Mount/Rootes type Etc Blowers anywhere on the Web...I see them Advertised..BUT no Reports on them...Just $$$$$ Signs ???...My car has been round a Race Track,,,Been on a Drag Strip..Been on a Dyno..Everything is still going as strong as...I have now covered about 5,000k with it on...Its a Daily Driver...It gets driven Hard..
I dont see ANY Figures or Pics or Documentaries on the FAT one or the Bullet one ??? Why ???
Mine does 14.2 down the strip at 1,800kg weight..Drove in off the street and straight down the strip...done 15 turns down the Drag Strip...Then loaded the Family back up in the car and went home for the night..Jumped in it the next morning,,went to a Dyno Day...Then went on a Day Cruise,,Then went on a Night Cruise...then back to were we were staying,,Then jumped in it the next morning and drove it home 700k...
I see no other stories like this ANYWHERE ????