need some pointers from the na-t people
02-25-05 | 11:07 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,460
Likes: 2
From: California
Originally Posted by SPORTcoupe
No, the '96 ECU is the same in the NA Supra and the SC.
Yes, I can easily make upwards of 300rwhp on this ECU, but there's a reason I decided to keep my setup basic and run stock injectors; that reason is driveability (ask any Lexus enthusiast if you don't know what the big deal about this is).
My car is a daily driver. Unlike most people who define 'daily driver' as a car that could be driven everyday without major issues, my car actually does get driven each and every single day.
Now, here are the 2 issues with the '96 ECU:
1) It runs lean between 3-4000 RPM no matter what you do. (AFC, VPC, MAP-ECU) Reason being is that all these piggybacks do the same exact thing. They mimick the MAF signal. Why is this ineffective? Because at 3-4000RPM, the ECU is not taking the MAF signal into consideration nearly as much as it should. It is basing fuel delivery on other signals.
2) It develops a missfire at idle. Don't ask me why...I wish i knew. All I do know is that if I let my car idle for about 10 minutes, it will develop a pretty bad missfire, start throwing codes, and spew raw gas out the tailpipe (this killed my catalytic converter). All I have to do is reset the ECU, and the car purrs like a kitten for about 10-20 minutes until the ECU starts messing around again.
So why would I go out and spend another $1500 on a standalone, knowing that I'm gonna need to spend at least another $1000 on tuning it when I can just stick with my SAFC?
Because I'm not happy making 357rwhp in a car that drives like a half-broken Chevy.
I'd rather make 300rwhp in a Lexus.
~Alan
P.S. AEM EMS opens a whole new world to you and your car. (Adjustable soft rev-limit with a few clicks of the mouse, no need for MAF, fully controllable fuel and ignition maps, as well as idle control and many more features I'm missing) You can't do any of this with a piggyback because all you have to work with is that 0-5V MAF signal.
Yes, I can easily make upwards of 300rwhp on this ECU, but there's a reason I decided to keep my setup basic and run stock injectors; that reason is driveability (ask any Lexus enthusiast if you don't know what the big deal about this is).
My car is a daily driver. Unlike most people who define 'daily driver' as a car that could be driven everyday without major issues, my car actually does get driven each and every single day.
Now, here are the 2 issues with the '96 ECU:
1) It runs lean between 3-4000 RPM no matter what you do. (AFC, VPC, MAP-ECU) Reason being is that all these piggybacks do the same exact thing. They mimick the MAF signal. Why is this ineffective? Because at 3-4000RPM, the ECU is not taking the MAF signal into consideration nearly as much as it should. It is basing fuel delivery on other signals.
2) It develops a missfire at idle. Don't ask me why...I wish i knew. All I do know is that if I let my car idle for about 10 minutes, it will develop a pretty bad missfire, start throwing codes, and spew raw gas out the tailpipe (this killed my catalytic converter). All I have to do is reset the ECU, and the car purrs like a kitten for about 10-20 minutes until the ECU starts messing around again.
So why would I go out and spend another $1500 on a standalone, knowing that I'm gonna need to spend at least another $1000 on tuning it when I can just stick with my SAFC?
Because I'm not happy making 357rwhp in a car that drives like a half-broken Chevy.
I'd rather make 300rwhp in a Lexus.
~Alan
P.S. AEM EMS opens a whole new world to you and your car. (Adjustable soft rev-limit with a few clicks of the mouse, no need for MAF, fully controllable fuel and ignition maps, as well as idle control and many more features I'm missing) You can't do any of this with a piggyback because all you have to work with is that 0-5V MAF signal.
i would like to hear more of your setup as i want my car to be a daily driven also w/o any problems. are you running stock compression? im assuming you are since you didnt change your injectors.......and as well as your maf. wht fuel pump are you using? walbro or TT?
tks for the feedback....
02-25-05 | 11:46 AM
#17
Lead Lap
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
From: California
alright i see everyone has different opinions on what to do when you go NA-T
IMO i think that it all depends on how much HP you are trying to make
it also depends on the condituion of the car, meaning the engine. A lot of people have tried different things out there and have gotten different results everytime. The final out come/results are also based on the parts that are used for the project and also the person who tunes it.
But like i had said before, everyone will get different results bacause not all engines are going to be ion the same condition, and not everyone will tune the engines the same either. As seen on the previous posts some people have been able to make some really good numbers without too many upgrades and with stock ecu's but it all depends on the tuner as well.
IMO i think that it all depends on how much HP you are trying to make
it also depends on the condituion of the car, meaning the engine. A lot of people have tried different things out there and have gotten different results everytime. The final out come/results are also based on the parts that are used for the project and also the person who tunes it.
But like i had said before, everyone will get different results bacause not all engines are going to be ion the same condition, and not everyone will tune the engines the same either. As seen on the previous posts some people have been able to make some really good numbers without too many upgrades and with stock ecu's but it all depends on the tuner as well.
02-25-05 | 12:03 PM
#19
Driver
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: CA
Originally Posted by AllBoutDaZ
alright i see everyone has different opinions on what to do when you go NA-T
IMO i think that it all depends on how much HP you are trying to make
it also depends on the condituion of the car, meaning the engine. A lot of people have tried different things out there and have gotten different results everytime. The final out come/results are also based on the parts that are used for the project and also the person who tunes it.
But like i had said before, everyone will get different results bacause not all engines are going to be ion the same condition, and not everyone will tune the engines the same either. As seen on the previous posts some people have been able to make some really good numbers without too many upgrades and with stock ecu's but it all depends on the tuner as well.
IMO i think that it all depends on how much HP you are trying to make
it also depends on the condituion of the car, meaning the engine. A lot of people have tried different things out there and have gotten different results everytime. The final out come/results are also based on the parts that are used for the project and also the person who tunes it.
But like i had said before, everyone will get different results bacause not all engines are going to be ion the same condition, and not everyone will tune the engines the same either. As seen on the previous posts some people have been able to make some really good numbers without too many upgrades and with stock ecu's but it all depends on the tuner as well.
02-25-05 | 12:05 PM
#20
Originally Posted by indypwr
good point...but what about obdi ecu's? does it hate boost as well?
i would like to hear more of your setup as i want my car to be a daily driven also w/o any problems. are you running stock compression? im assuming you are since you didnt change your injectors.......and as well as your maf. wht fuel pump are you using? walbro or TT?
tks for the feedback....
i would like to hear more of your setup as i want my car to be a daily driven also w/o any problems. are you running stock compression? im assuming you are since you didnt change your injectors.......and as well as your maf. wht fuel pump are you using? walbro or TT?
tks for the feedback....
Sorry I didn't reply to your PM on my setup.
The question was very broad and I didn't know how to answer.
My setup is as follows: PT52 turbo on a DaveH kit. Stock compression, stock injectors, stock MAF (mounted blow-through style), no fpr, Walbro 341 FP, SAFC-II and LM1 Wideband for tuning.
This is all on a '96 California Spec 5spd.
I've been running a very convervative 5psi of boost in fear of blowing something up during the lean spike from 3-4K RPM.
From 4K RPM to redline, the car rockets forward like no other and I'm able to tune my AFR accurately to 12:1
Problem is though that I start building boost at about 2000RPM and hit full boost by about 3000RPM.
So here's my typical driving scenario: I'm rolling in 3rd at 2500 RPM. I floor the throttle and keep it down. I immediately hear the turbo spooling up and hear a rush of air. My boost gauge needle starts crawling into the positive. I'm now at 3000 RPM, boost is showing 3 psi and AFR is 15:1
Car is acting like an NA(worse actually because there is a bit of detonation and the ECU scramles timing so the car jerks back and forth while the ECU is trying to find a balance). Here comes 4000 RPM. Boost is now 5 psi, and right at 4000 AFR dives from 15.5 to 11.5 What does this feel like? Like I just hit the button on a nice fat shot of NOS.This is the point where my friends usually ask "Whoa, did the turbo just kick in" to which i usually reply "Yeah" even though I know it's bull****.
The turbo has been fully spooled ever since 3000RPM. I might as well just take the 3000-4000RPM range, and throw it out the window.
I can't wait to get the AEM. I want my Lexus back.
Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know about my setup.
Cheers,
~Alan
02-25-05 | 12:10 PM
#21
Lead Lap
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
From: California
Originally Posted by SPORTcoupe
Hey indypwr,
Sorry I didn't reply to your PM on my setup.
The question was very broad and I didn't know how to answer.
My setup is as follows: PT52 turbo on a DaveH kit. Stock compression, stock injectors, stock MAF (mounted blow-through style), no fpr, Walbro 341 FP, SAFC-II and LM1 Wideband for tuning.
This is all on a '96 California Spec 5spd.
I've been running a very convervative 5psi of boost in fear of blowing something up during the lean spike from 3-4K RPM.
From 4K RPM to redline, the car rockets forward like no other and I'm able to tune my AFR accurately to 12:1
Problem is though that I start building boost at about 2000RPM and hit full boost by about 3000RPM.
So here's my typical driving scenario: I'm rolling in 3rd at 2500 RPM. I floor the throttle and keep it down. I immediately hear the turbo spooling up and hear a rush of air. My boost gauge needle starts crawling into the positive. I'm now at 3000 RPM, boost is showing 3 psi and AFR is 15:1 Car is acting like an NA(worse actually because there is a bit of detonation and the ECU scramles timing so the car jerks back and forth while the ECU is trying to find a balance). Here comes 4000 RPM. Boost is now 5 psi, and right at 4000 AFR dives from 15.5 to 11.5 What does this feel like? Like I just hit the button on a nice fat shot of NOS.
This is the point where my friends usually ask "Whoa, did the turbo just kick in" to which i usually reply "Yeah" even though I know it's bull****.
The turbo has been fully spooled ever since 3000RPM. I might as well just take the 3000-4000RPM range, and throw it out the window.
I can't wait to get the AEM. I want my Lexus back.
Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know about my setup.
Cheers,
~Alan
Sorry I didn't reply to your PM on my setup.
The question was very broad and I didn't know how to answer.
My setup is as follows: PT52 turbo on a DaveH kit. Stock compression, stock injectors, stock MAF (mounted blow-through style), no fpr, Walbro 341 FP, SAFC-II and LM1 Wideband for tuning.
This is all on a '96 California Spec 5spd.
I've been running a very convervative 5psi of boost in fear of blowing something up during the lean spike from 3-4K RPM.
From 4K RPM to redline, the car rockets forward like no other and I'm able to tune my AFR accurately to 12:1
Problem is though that I start building boost at about 2000RPM and hit full boost by about 3000RPM.
So here's my typical driving scenario: I'm rolling in 3rd at 2500 RPM. I floor the throttle and keep it down. I immediately hear the turbo spooling up and hear a rush of air. My boost gauge needle starts crawling into the positive. I'm now at 3000 RPM, boost is showing 3 psi and AFR is 15:1
Car is acting like an NA(worse actually because there is a bit of detonation and the ECU scramles timing so the car jerks back and forth while the ECU is trying to find a balance). Here comes 4000 RPM. Boost is now 5 psi, and right at 4000 AFR dives from 15.5 to 11.5 What does this feel like? Like I just hit the button on a nice fat shot of NOS.This is the point where my friends usually ask "Whoa, did the turbo just kick in" to which i usually reply "Yeah" even though I know it's bull****.
The turbo has been fully spooled ever since 3000RPM. I might as well just take the 3000-4000RPM range, and throw it out the window.
I can't wait to get the AEM. I want my Lexus back.
Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know about my setup.
Cheers,
~Alan
and i see you still have stock ecu and injector and motor
INDYPWR it an be done
02-25-05 | 12:10 PM
#22
Driver
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: CA
Originally Posted by SPORTcoupe
My boost gauge needle starts crawling into the positive. I'm now at 3000 RPM, boost is showing 3 psi and AFR is 15:1 Car is acting like an NA(worse actually because there is a bit of detonation and the ECU scramles timing so the car jerks back and forth while the ECU is trying to find a balance). Here comes 4000 RPM. Boost is now 5 psi, and right at 4000 AFR dives from 15.5 to 11.5
Cheers,
~Alan
Car is acting like an NA(worse actually because there is a bit of detonation and the ECU scramles timing so the car jerks back and forth while the ECU is trying to find a balance). Here comes 4000 RPM. Boost is now 5 psi, and right at 4000 AFR dives from 15.5 to 11.5 Cheers,
~Alan
LOL, thats pretty bad, I wouldn't get under boost at all if you AFR goes that lean.
02-25-05 | 12:13 PM
#23
Driver
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: CA
Originally Posted by SPORTcoupe
Hey indypwr,
Sorry I didn't reply to your PM on my setup.
The question was very broad and I didn't know how to answer.
My setup is as follows: PT52 turbo on a DaveH kit. Stock compression, stock injectors, stock MAF (mounted blow-through style), no fpr, Walbro 341 FP, SAFC-II and LM1 Wideband for tuning.
This is all on a '96 California Spec 5spd.
I've been running a very convervative 5psi of boost in fear of blowing something up during the lean spike from 3-4K RPM.
From 4K RPM to redline, the car rockets forward like no other and I'm able to tune my AFR accurately to 12:1
Problem is though that I start building boost at about 2000RPM and hit full boost by about 3000RPM.
So here's my typical driving scenario: I'm rolling in 3rd at 2500 RPM. I floor the throttle and keep it down. I immediately hear the turbo spooling up and hear a rush of air. My boost gauge needle starts crawling into the positive. I'm now at 3000 RPM, boost is showing 3 psi and AFR is 15:1 Car is acting like an NA(worse actually because there is a bit of detonation and the ECU scramles timing so the car jerks back and forth while the ECU is trying to find a balance). Here comes 4000 RPM. Boost is now 5 psi, and right at 4000 AFR dives from 15.5 to 11.5 What does this feel like? Like I just hit the button on a nice fat shot of NOS.
This is the point where my friends usually ask "Whoa, did the turbo just kick in" to which i usually reply "Yeah" even though I know it's bull****.
The turbo has been fully spooled ever since 3000RPM. I might as well just take the 3000-4000RPM range, and throw it out the window.
I can't wait to get the AEM. I want my Lexus back.
Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know about my setup.
Cheers,
~Alan
Sorry I didn't reply to your PM on my setup.
The question was very broad and I didn't know how to answer.
My setup is as follows: PT52 turbo on a DaveH kit. Stock compression, stock injectors, stock MAF (mounted blow-through style), no fpr, Walbro 341 FP, SAFC-II and LM1 Wideband for tuning.
This is all on a '96 California Spec 5spd.
I've been running a very convervative 5psi of boost in fear of blowing something up during the lean spike from 3-4K RPM.
From 4K RPM to redline, the car rockets forward like no other and I'm able to tune my AFR accurately to 12:1
Problem is though that I start building boost at about 2000RPM and hit full boost by about 3000RPM.
So here's my typical driving scenario: I'm rolling in 3rd at 2500 RPM. I floor the throttle and keep it down. I immediately hear the turbo spooling up and hear a rush of air. My boost gauge needle starts crawling into the positive. I'm now at 3000 RPM, boost is showing 3 psi and AFR is 15:1
Car is acting like an NA(worse actually because there is a bit of detonation and the ECU scramles timing so the car jerks back and forth while the ECU is trying to find a balance). Here comes 4000 RPM. Boost is now 5 psi, and right at 4000 AFR dives from 15.5 to 11.5 What does this feel like? Like I just hit the button on a nice fat shot of NOS.This is the point where my friends usually ask "Whoa, did the turbo just kick in" to which i usually reply "Yeah" even though I know it's bull****.
The turbo has been fully spooled ever since 3000RPM. I might as well just take the 3000-4000RPM range, and throw it out the window.
I can't wait to get the AEM. I want my Lexus back.
Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know about my setup.
Cheers,
~Alan
02-25-05 | 01:36 PM
#26
Originally Posted by CleanSC
Alan. Your solution is simple.
Get a bigger turbo that spools up by 4k rpm and no sooner!
Get a bigger turbo that spools up by 4k rpm and no sooner!
I put down 246 hp at 5 psi with the current setup(actually this was through a busted cat and stock exhaust piping). I've since tried turning the boost up to 8psi but then the lean spike peaked at 17:1 AFR instead of 15.5:1 so I put it back down to 5 psi.
At 3psi, 15:1 is definitely not safe, but it's also not something that can blow up the engine.
This is the main reason I'm getting the AEM. Even at 8 psi, I was able to tune it down to as low as 11:1 at near redline, so once I get the AEM I'm gonna run 8-10 PSI with a nice safe AFR until I pop my HG, at which point I'm going with 550CC injectors, 2mm HG and 15psi.
02-25-05 | 01:39 PM
#28
Originally Posted by RyanG
BTW, have you dynoed the car? If so what did it put down?
Check out the AFR graph.
That's pretty scary.
~Alan
EDIT: Fixing a broken image link.
Last edited by SPORTcoupe; 12-08-05 at 11:32 AM.
