Tech question about turbos
09-14-01, 11:37 PM
#1
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This is the same post I placed upon supra forums that yeilded little results.So I am trying my luck here.
Yes this is going into a sc300, with custom intake mfld, like that of PHR for the na supra.
I have been compiling info about all the turbo upgrades, lag vs. spool, and power vs. lag and so on. Now all the heavy hitters are running the hks twins, hks behemoth, or the t88, and the odd t100. Bigger turbo = bigger lag, obvious enough. Now I do not want to start a debate about the potential of the smaller (mid size turbos) vs. the larger turbos.
My question is has anyone seen an aftermarket sequential turbo kit, that is able to produce 700+ numbers?
For example utilizing a t88 for the secondary turbo and a SP57 trim (even smaller if it exists) as the primary, granted if you can fit them together.
How hard would if be to plumb both of these together, if not this set up then something that would actually fit and make it work? IS there any way to set it up so as not to experience the momentary boost drop? (If you have ridden in an unhealthy gen3 stock twin rx7 you know what I am talking about)
If you have any links, please do post. Thanks for all your help,
Jakub
Yes this is going into a sc300, with custom intake mfld, like that of PHR for the na supra.
I have been compiling info about all the turbo upgrades, lag vs. spool, and power vs. lag and so on. Now all the heavy hitters are running the hks twins, hks behemoth, or the t88, and the odd t100. Bigger turbo = bigger lag, obvious enough. Now I do not want to start a debate about the potential of the smaller (mid size turbos) vs. the larger turbos.
My question is has anyone seen an aftermarket sequential turbo kit, that is able to produce 700+ numbers?
For example utilizing a t88 for the secondary turbo and a SP57 trim (even smaller if it exists) as the primary, granted if you can fit them together.
How hard would if be to plumb both of these together, if not this set up then something that would actually fit and make it work? IS there any way to set it up so as not to experience the momentary boost drop? (If you have ridden in an unhealthy gen3 stock twin rx7 you know what I am talking about)
If you have any links, please do post. Thanks for all your help,
Jakub
09-18-01, 10:52 AM
#2
an aftermarket sequential system that offers 700hp+ numbers?
no
the only twin setups sold are true twin... when you get to that kind of power a sequential system won't spool that much earlier... and if you got a small enough turbo where it DID spool quickly then there would still be a gap in the power band because the second larger turbo would still not have spooled yet...
you can't have best of both worlds... but there are ways to combat lag...
what I recommend is this:
get a certainly big turbo... you pick the size; i recommend Garret since the other brands are horribly expensive...
say like a T66 which is able to make that kind of power... then get a divided housing with a decent A/R.. and get a custom exhaust manifold that is divided as well..
you know what divided means right? 3 cylinders feed air to one hole on the turbine section and the other 3 feed to the other hold... go to turbonetics website to see what i'm talking about...
then get a ball-bearing option...
spool should be greatly reduced and still make crazy amounts of power...
back to your question: yes its possible to do it; but i've never seen a kit that could do it... you could possibly set up a special manifold that had a type of throttle body in it that opened and closed to route exhaust gases... the plumbing would be a *****; since twinturbos of that size would probably not fit...
is it possible to keep that pressure drop from occuring? yes with NOS... but thats it... the Supra has the same problem...
a T88 is a bit too big and they spool so slowly that with the smaller powerband of the 2jz-ge motor, there would be about 1000rpms to play with... which would make your car slow as hell
no
the only twin setups sold are true twin... when you get to that kind of power a sequential system won't spool that much earlier... and if you got a small enough turbo where it DID spool quickly then there would still be a gap in the power band because the second larger turbo would still not have spooled yet...
you can't have best of both worlds... but there are ways to combat lag...
what I recommend is this:
get a certainly big turbo... you pick the size; i recommend Garret since the other brands are horribly expensive...
say like a T66 which is able to make that kind of power... then get a divided housing with a decent A/R.. and get a custom exhaust manifold that is divided as well..
you know what divided means right? 3 cylinders feed air to one hole on the turbine section and the other 3 feed to the other hold... go to turbonetics website to see what i'm talking about...
then get a ball-bearing option...
spool should be greatly reduced and still make crazy amounts of power...
back to your question: yes its possible to do it; but i've never seen a kit that could do it... you could possibly set up a special manifold that had a type of throttle body in it that opened and closed to route exhaust gases... the plumbing would be a *****; since twinturbos of that size would probably not fit...
is it possible to keep that pressure drop from occuring? yes with NOS... but thats it... the Supra has the same problem...
a T88 is a bit too big and they spool so slowly that with the smaller powerband of the 2jz-ge motor, there would be about 1000rpms to play with... which would make your car slow as hell
09-19-01, 11:11 PM
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Bean,
thank you for the insight and suggestions.
The rev band of the 2jz-ge motor will be raised.
I have looked at all the different turbos from the 57's to the t100s etc etc and I have most of their flow maps and so forth. But I do not want to use a single turbo. I am looking to go a sequential twin set up, I also understand it must be all custom. So instead of going the typical medium single like the t66 (flows and spools very nicely I may add) I would like to go the unique route.
Since I have see twins from HKS and now blitz, and a custom Greddy one in Mr. Henderson’s supra, they are all just top end. Their dyno graphs look like mountain sides, just keep building more and more power at each higher rpm band so long as it is beyond 5000 rpms. That is not at all usable for the street. Yes it can be applied to the street but is more suited for high speed applications, like long top gear pulls.
The t88 was just a suggestion, but try a t70 or t72 from turbonetics, mated to a smaller turbo to spool. I know this can be done, just have to figure out how. The primary turbo would act like nos and assist in spooling the large turbo, by creating the cylinder pressure for the bigger turbo
Now my next question does anyone have info on Bugatti's sequential set up on the eb110?
If a custom header is designed to flow 3cyl per turbo, will the motor experience a pressure build across the three cyl for the 2nd turbo, and a vacuum across the three cyl feeding the primary? Is there any way around this?
What other types of problems may be associated this type of set up?
Does anyone have pictures of the header for upgraded twins?? Even links??
Again everyone thank you for your help,
Jakub
thank you for the insight and suggestions.
The rev band of the 2jz-ge motor will be raised.
I have looked at all the different turbos from the 57's to the t100s etc etc and I have most of their flow maps and so forth. But I do not want to use a single turbo. I am looking to go a sequential twin set up, I also understand it must be all custom. So instead of going the typical medium single like the t66 (flows and spools very nicely I may add) I would like to go the unique route.
Since I have see twins from HKS and now blitz, and a custom Greddy one in Mr. Henderson’s supra, they are all just top end. Their dyno graphs look like mountain sides, just keep building more and more power at each higher rpm band so long as it is beyond 5000 rpms. That is not at all usable for the street. Yes it can be applied to the street but is more suited for high speed applications, like long top gear pulls.
The t88 was just a suggestion, but try a t70 or t72 from turbonetics, mated to a smaller turbo to spool. I know this can be done, just have to figure out how. The primary turbo would act like nos and assist in spooling the large turbo, by creating the cylinder pressure for the bigger turbo
Now my next question does anyone have info on Bugatti's sequential set up on the eb110?
If a custom header is designed to flow 3cyl per turbo, will the motor experience a pressure build across the three cyl for the 2nd turbo, and a vacuum across the three cyl feeding the primary? Is there any way around this?
What other types of problems may be associated this type of set up?
Does anyone have pictures of the header for upgraded twins?? Even links??
Again everyone thank you for your help,
Jakub
09-20-01, 01:54 PM
#4
Originally posted by Ear Candy
Bean,
thank you for the insight and suggestions.
The rev band of the 2jz-ge motor will be raised.
I have looked at all the different turbos from the 57's to the t100s etc etc and I have most of their flow maps and so forth. But I do not want to use a single turbo. I am looking to go a sequential twin set up, I also understand it must be all custom. So instead of going the typical medium single like the t66 (flows and spools very nicely I may add) I would like to go the unique route.
Since I have see twins from HKS and now blitz, and a custom Greddy one in Mr. Henderson’s supra, they are all just top end. Their dyno graphs look like mountain sides, just keep building more and more power at each higher rpm band so long as it is beyond 5000 rpms. That is not at all usable for the street. Yes it can be applied to the street but is more suited for high speed applications, like long top gear pulls.
The t88 was just a suggestion, but try a t70 or t72 from turbonetics, mated to a smaller turbo to spool. I know this can be done, just have to figure out how. The primary turbo would act like nos and assist in spooling the large turbo, by creating the cylinder pressure for the bigger turbo
Now my next question does anyone have info on Bugatti's sequential set up on the eb110?
If a custom header is designed to flow 3cyl per turbo, will the motor experience a pressure build across the three cyl for the 2nd turbo, and a vacuum across the three cyl feeding the primary? Is there any way around this?
What other types of problems may be associated this type of set up?
Does anyone have pictures of the header for upgraded twins?? Even links??
Again everyone thank you for your help,
Jakub
Bean,
thank you for the insight and suggestions.
The rev band of the 2jz-ge motor will be raised.
I have looked at all the different turbos from the 57's to the t100s etc etc and I have most of their flow maps and so forth. But I do not want to use a single turbo. I am looking to go a sequential twin set up, I also understand it must be all custom. So instead of going the typical medium single like the t66 (flows and spools very nicely I may add) I would like to go the unique route.
Since I have see twins from HKS and now blitz, and a custom Greddy one in Mr. Henderson’s supra, they are all just top end. Their dyno graphs look like mountain sides, just keep building more and more power at each higher rpm band so long as it is beyond 5000 rpms. That is not at all usable for the street. Yes it can be applied to the street but is more suited for high speed applications, like long top gear pulls.
The t88 was just a suggestion, but try a t70 or t72 from turbonetics, mated to a smaller turbo to spool. I know this can be done, just have to figure out how. The primary turbo would act like nos and assist in spooling the large turbo, by creating the cylinder pressure for the bigger turbo
Now my next question does anyone have info on Bugatti's sequential set up on the eb110?
If a custom header is designed to flow 3cyl per turbo, will the motor experience a pressure build across the three cyl for the 2nd turbo, and a vacuum across the three cyl feeding the primary? Is there any way around this?
What other types of problems may be associated this type of set up?
Does anyone have pictures of the header for upgraded twins?? Even links??
Again everyone thank you for your help,
Jakub
the custom header you are talking about is a true twin setup...
what i was talking about is having a normal turbo mani that splits into two parts after the manifold tubes join together... it splits into two tubes... one runs to each turbo... and a buttefly plate type thing over the 2nd tube that runs to the 2nd larger turbo... and basically when the computer decides its time, it opens the butterfly and lets air into the 2nd turbo as well; and basically spools both turbos...
Supras don't run the T100, i think you're getting it confused with something else...
the largest turbo i've ever heard of on a Supra is the Y2K Garret turbo... which is still smaller than the T100
you can fix the power band where its fatter than normal but still not very low
700rwhp can be done with a smaller single turbo and NOS i know... but twin sequential twins i've never heard of...
sorry i don't have any links
09-21-01, 03:11 PM
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Bean thanks.
Do you by chance have a link to the blitz sequential kit or any information on it?
T100? My mistake, I thought dusty was using it on this 1200 bhp monster, oops, sorry.
The header I was speaking of was one that the upgraded twins use. I was thinking with a bit of trick work, with a custom header you would be able to utilize the same design. It seems like it will be a little simpler to design an implement. What I am worried about that it will create a vacuum/pressure on the engine for each cylinder and that you might eventually destroy something at 25+psi of air, especially if it does detonate, before TDC.
I was also thinking about the header design you are speaking of, but I could not figure out how to implement turbo 1 to pre-spool turbo 2, without going complex vacuum controlled system like that of the 2jz-gte, and the rx7tt. Those factory systems would seem to eventually hit a limit of which ensuing boost leaks would not stop occurring. Now instead of using a computer to control the butterfly plate, could you use a pressure sensor and rpm sensor?
What I mean by the pressure sensor, is that at a designated psi, (for simplicity lets assume 20 psi) and 4000 rpm would be the change over point. Form there the electronic pressure sensor reading 20 psi activates an actuator to open the butterfly and spool turbo 2. At this point the 2nd turbo will be prespooled until the wg opens and reaching its max 26 psi (for simplicity assumption). Now when the second wg opens use another pressure sensor to close off turbo 1’s wg. Use the same set up to switch back from turbo 2 to turbo 1. Am I on to something here or just have my head in the clouds??
Bean what do you think?
Please post more input, thanks again
Do you by chance have a link to the blitz sequential kit or any information on it?
T100? My mistake, I thought dusty was using it on this 1200 bhp monster, oops, sorry.
The header I was speaking of was one that the upgraded twins use. I was thinking with a bit of trick work, with a custom header you would be able to utilize the same design. It seems like it will be a little simpler to design an implement. What I am worried about that it will create a vacuum/pressure on the engine for each cylinder and that you might eventually destroy something at 25+psi of air, especially if it does detonate, before TDC.
I was also thinking about the header design you are speaking of, but I could not figure out how to implement turbo 1 to pre-spool turbo 2, without going complex vacuum controlled system like that of the 2jz-gte, and the rx7tt. Those factory systems would seem to eventually hit a limit of which ensuing boost leaks would not stop occurring. Now instead of using a computer to control the butterfly plate, could you use a pressure sensor and rpm sensor?
What I mean by the pressure sensor, is that at a designated psi, (for simplicity lets assume 20 psi) and 4000 rpm would be the change over point. Form there the electronic pressure sensor reading 20 psi activates an actuator to open the butterfly and spool turbo 2. At this point the 2nd turbo will be prespooled until the wg opens and reaching its max 26 psi (for simplicity assumption). Now when the second wg opens use another pressure sensor to close off turbo 1’s wg. Use the same set up to switch back from turbo 2 to turbo 1. Am I on to something here or just have my head in the clouds??
Bean what do you think?
Please post more input, thanks again
09-21-01, 06:10 PM
#6
Lexus Test Driver
go to www.Toyomoto.com and call the number...ask for Lance. Ask him all these questions and see what he can figure out for you....he seemed to REALLY know his stuff even time I talked to him..... (thats where I bought my turbo)
SR
SR
09-23-01, 01:08 AM
#7
1200hp monster? yeah i think thats the Y2k turbo... a T100 can produce 1800hp...
i wouldn't get turbos as twin sequentials to run THAT much boost... i'd be planning on like 18psi so you don't have to worry about the system you have set up to be having problems with that much pressure
and i'd talk to Lance about it as well
i might be misreading you but you DO know that twin sequentials still feed into the same intake manifold and not seperate cylinder banks (a la 300zxTT)
and that on twin sequentials when turbo2 spools turbo1 keeps spooling with it... so they are both running at the same time... turbo1 never shuts off; and the wastegates would most likely be mechanically internal using a spring
i wouldn't get turbos as twin sequentials to run THAT much boost... i'd be planning on like 18psi so you don't have to worry about the system you have set up to be having problems with that much pressure
and i'd talk to Lance about it as well
i might be misreading you but you DO know that twin sequentials still feed into the same intake manifold and not seperate cylinder banks (a la 300zxTT)
and that on twin sequentials when turbo2 spools turbo1 keeps spooling with it... so they are both running at the same time... turbo1 never shuts off; and the wastegates would most likely be mechanically internal using a spring
Last edited by Bean; 09-23-01 at 01:16 AM.
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09-25-01, 09:12 PM
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I gotta apologise for the write up, I have been up to my ears in work and studying so it made somewhat of sense to me at the time I wrote it. I can see the problems, I will try to clear things up somewhat. J
The 1200 rwhp supra is PHR and MVP motorsport combo, dusty owns that beast.
I do not quite understand as to why you can not or sure not run more than 18 psi. The engine stock bottom end, 2mm head gasket, and a few other goodies handles and easy 22 psi and a don’t more then 25. So I am assuming it’s not the engine, drivetrain will be supra so no problem there. On some cold days, we up here have even pushed the stock supra tt twins to 22 psi, short runs of courses. Did not hks make a set of upgraded twins for the mkiv, it was in their Toyota Supra, the quick silver one, ran them. It was on all the major car mags, about 98-99, went 180+ mph. I know they ran those twins over 20 psi. So I quite don’t get as to why?
I can see the problem of it becoming a little complex to control, but not enough to warrant it to only 18psi. So what I am looking to do is to design a very simple and ruff system. So long as it works, I will take it to my fellow engineering friends on campus and start to elaborate on the system. But before I do that, I was looking for info and help from some real life guys. So please keep the opinions and observations coming!
Lance @ toyomoto, is a lexus tuning guru, but I don’t want to waste his time, just yet, for I will be designing and building most of the stuff myself. But I will be tapping into his vast knowledge, for help and some “hard to design yourself” parts, first have to make my plan of attack.
Yes. There will be a Y-pipe shortly after the compressor side, which will be leading to a FMIC. After the ic it will go up and into the PHR na to T style manifold like that of Dave’s NA supra off of supra forums.
Yeah sorry the sleepless delusions where making sense at that particular time.
The wastegates will be spring controlled, but what I was trying to refer to is the switching system. From primary to secondary, and back and forth. The pressure sensor is there for just added safety, just in case of malfunctions, so I don’t end up eating engines like cornflakes.
Here is what I am looking to accomplish. Since the bigger turbos usually don’t produce much power until on ave 4500rpm, then they explode in some huge power. With a manual it is no prob, just add some nos for pre spool and your good to go. I want to bypass the nos for pre spool, and use a turbo to produce the same results. Now with the butterfly plate controlling the operation of the secondary turbo, will the primary affect the potential of the secondary, by way causing and uneven exhaust flow across the impeller of the secondary?? If so by guesstimate, would it be on a linear or a logarithmic scale?
Do you have any rough designs on the header for the sequential set up? I would like to compare them to my sketches and see if I’m heading in a right direction? Also any other advise or links to turbo tech sites will be much appreciated.
Thanks once again,
Jakub
Originally posted by Bean
1200hp monster? yeah i think thats the Y2k turbo... a T100 can produce 1800hp...
1200hp monster? yeah i think thats the Y2k turbo... a T100 can produce 1800hp...
Originally posted by Bean
i wouldn't get turbos as twin sequentials to run THAT much boost... i'd be planning on like 18psi so you don't have to worry about the system you have set up to be having problems with that much pressure
i wouldn't get turbos as twin sequentials to run THAT much boost... i'd be planning on like 18psi so you don't have to worry about the system you have set up to be having problems with that much pressure
I can see the problem of it becoming a little complex to control, but not enough to warrant it to only 18psi. So what I am looking to do is to design a very simple and ruff system. So long as it works, I will take it to my fellow engineering friends on campus and start to elaborate on the system. But before I do that, I was looking for info and help from some real life guys. So please keep the opinions and observations coming!
Originally posted by Bean
and i'd talk to Lance about it as well
and i'd talk to Lance about it as well
Originally posted by Bean
i might be misreading you but you DO know that twin sequentials still feed into the same intake manifold and not seperate cylinder banks (a la 300zxTT)
i might be misreading you but you DO know that twin sequentials still feed into the same intake manifold and not seperate cylinder banks (a la 300zxTT)
Originally posted by Bean
and that on twin sequentials when turbo2 spools turbo1 keeps spooling with it... so they are both running at the same time... turbo1 never shuts off; and the wastegates would most likely be mechanically internal using a spring
and that on twin sequentials when turbo2 spools turbo1 keeps spooling with it... so they are both running at the same time... turbo1 never shuts off; and the wastegates would most likely be mechanically internal using a spring
The wastegates will be spring controlled, but what I was trying to refer to is the switching system. From primary to secondary, and back and forth. The pressure sensor is there for just added safety, just in case of malfunctions, so I don’t end up eating engines like cornflakes.
Here is what I am looking to accomplish. Since the bigger turbos usually don’t produce much power until on ave 4500rpm, then they explode in some huge power. With a manual it is no prob, just add some nos for pre spool and your good to go. I want to bypass the nos for pre spool, and use a turbo to produce the same results. Now with the butterfly plate controlling the operation of the secondary turbo, will the primary affect the potential of the secondary, by way causing and uneven exhaust flow across the impeller of the secondary?? If so by guesstimate, would it be on a linear or a logarithmic scale?
Do you have any rough designs on the header for the sequential set up? I would like to compare them to my sketches and see if I’m heading in a right direction? Also any other advise or links to turbo tech sites will be much appreciated.
Thanks once again,
Jakub
09-27-01, 01:06 PM
#11
wish i had the time to make designs hehehe
but i do know your 4500rpms number for the big turbos is a little off... for BIG turbos; the ones that make 800rwhp its around 6000rpms without NOS... granted they have cams n stuff to raise their powerband to 9000rpms but i dunno what you intend to have...
and what i meant at 18psi; is in response to your concern about the complexity of the system... the more boost you run the more chances things can pop off, etc... you can run as much boost as you want as long as its not a ghetto rigged system
but i do know your 4500rpms number for the big turbos is a little off... for BIG turbos; the ones that make 800rwhp its around 6000rpms without NOS... granted they have cams n stuff to raise their powerband to 9000rpms but i dunno what you intend to have...
and what i meant at 18psi; is in response to your concern about the complexity of the system... the more boost you run the more chances things can pop off, etc... you can run as much boost as you want as long as its not a ghetto rigged system
Last edited by Bean; 09-27-01 at 01:15 PM.
09-28-01, 06:42 AM
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RPS is supposedly working on a true sequential manifold. You might want to get a hold of them. It'll be designed for the TT, but I'm sure they could rework it a little to get it on the na engine.
Here is a dyno pull of my old T66 at 20psi of boost. It made decent hp around 4k rpm. The SP63 I'm using now spools a fair amount better, but I don't have a dyno pull on it yet. Just FYI.
http://www.mkiv.com/readersrides/rea...y/dhdyno99.jpg
Dave
Here is a dyno pull of my old T66 at 20psi of boost. It made decent hp around 4k rpm. The SP63 I'm using now spools a fair amount better, but I don't have a dyno pull on it yet. Just FYI.
http://www.mkiv.com/readersrides/rea...y/dhdyno99.jpg
Dave
09-29-01, 07:47 AM
#13
here is a set up to think about. a big turbo that feeds a smaller turbo?
not sure on the sizes but the small turbo looks about the size of a 60-1 or so the larger unit is much bigger than a t66.
the big turbo draws in air and feeds it to the smaller unit, im not exactly sure why he set it up like that but here are the pics
not sure on the sizes but the small turbo looks about the size of a 60-1 or so the larger unit is much bigger than a t66.
the big turbo draws in air and feeds it to the smaller unit, im not exactly sure why he set it up like that but here are the pics
09-29-01, 11:27 AM
#15
Lexus Test Driver
Well using the small turbo to feed the large one would cause a restriction....the big one could only get the amount of air that the small one could flow.
Using the big one to push the small one....the small one farther compresses the air, and it has PLENTY coming in to feed it. I would also assume that the small one would spool first...causing a vacuum that would actually help spool the large one...know what I mean?
Just my thoughts on this.
SR
Using the big one to push the small one....the small one farther compresses the air, and it has PLENTY coming in to feed it. I would also assume that the small one would spool first...causing a vacuum that would actually help spool the large one...know what I mean?
Just my thoughts on this.
SR