Boosting my 95SC4 and some other projects
#241
Lexus Test Driver
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Lol, geez you are all over the place man. First it's a glowing compressor housing(which probably wouldn't ever happen on a car) and how you tried to relate that to a turbo turbine housing, then posted up a link which had no relevance to anything you have said at all because they do include an aftercooler(same principle as I/C). Now your reasoning is he doesn't need it for low boost. Well, hes at 10 psi if I'm not mistaken and as a forum we should suggest things that keep the engine in a safe operating range. He has done a great job so far with putting things together and innovation and to not suggest an I/C at this point for his sake is just too much for me. Do you even know what octane he is running? I might have missed it, and sorry if I did, but how can you back not having an I/C when you don't even know for sure what conditions he is running? So his AFR is in a good range, so what, that is only one part of alot of factors that should be considered. I am trying to suggest something that will for sure keep his ride safe and increase his hp.
Jon
#242
Ok, you're confusing me. First, I have never seen a glowing compressor housing, but seeing a glowing turbine housing is nothing new at all. I think you are trying to entwine two different occurences here. Turbine housings glow because there is a tremendous amount of heat(detonated air/exhaust) and velocity focused into the housing. Now on the compressor, the transitive heat from the exhaust housing is not why the intake charged needs to be cooled. You say that s/c produce lower charged air, which is true and not in dispute, but then you talk about glowing housing, these two are not related in this case because the design is different between s/c and turboes and there is no exhaust housing(even if it were relevant to AIT's). I'm just not really sure how you are connecting these two phenomenon. You say glowing compressor on a s/c, and try and connect it to glowing turbine housing on a turbo, then talk about how a s/c produces less charged air. Sorry if I am misunderstading what you are trying to say.
Please re-read Post 235. Meanwhile, please try not to hi jack KC's thread. I said turbo glowing in general not specific part. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRU2lDCSfBU
Last edited by Lextreme; 03-21-08 at 01:57 PM.
#243
Thanks for the compliments guys.
I am 100% convinced there is more power to be had with some tweaking.
I was running a bit richer than I would have liked, looking at my AEM wideband readings. I was logging the entire time it was on the dyno and you can't really go by the readings on the graph because they are after the drivers side cat converter.
Putting the IC back in would surely add some power.
Changing the intake into the supercharger, this could be a dramatic difference. The tuner guy was saying that they usually use intake pipe that is at least a half inch bigger than the inlet size of the supercharger. Well, my inlet is 3.5 inches and I'm using 3 inch pipe for the inlet. If you look at the graphs, the hp curve doesen't seem to climb as much as it maybe should as boost climbs. I can only think of two causes for this..the inlet side of the supercharger is restricted or....the supercharger is running out of breath. I'm hoping that reducing the inlet resistance will increase power significantly.
Of course, bolting a v1 or v2 in place would yeild allot more power, everything else being equal. The V-9 f trim that I am using is, technically a little small for the motor.
I would be dissapointed to not see at least 20hp with the EKT headers, if I ever get the stupid things. I emailed them today, asking for the headers or my money back. I would go SS if it came down to it.
I also think that if the dyno could load the car a bit more, I'd see more boost and higher numbers. The guy doing the runs was impressed by how fast the car went through the RPM's.
KC
I am 100% convinced there is more power to be had with some tweaking.
I was running a bit richer than I would have liked, looking at my AEM wideband readings. I was logging the entire time it was on the dyno and you can't really go by the readings on the graph because they are after the drivers side cat converter.
Putting the IC back in would surely add some power.
Changing the intake into the supercharger, this could be a dramatic difference. The tuner guy was saying that they usually use intake pipe that is at least a half inch bigger than the inlet size of the supercharger. Well, my inlet is 3.5 inches and I'm using 3 inch pipe for the inlet. If you look at the graphs, the hp curve doesen't seem to climb as much as it maybe should as boost climbs. I can only think of two causes for this..the inlet side of the supercharger is restricted or....the supercharger is running out of breath. I'm hoping that reducing the inlet resistance will increase power significantly.
Of course, bolting a v1 or v2 in place would yeild allot more power, everything else being equal. The V-9 f trim that I am using is, technically a little small for the motor.
I would be dissapointed to not see at least 20hp with the EKT headers, if I ever get the stupid things. I emailed them today, asking for the headers or my money back. I would go SS if it came down to it.
I also think that if the dyno could load the car a bit more, I'd see more boost and higher numbers. The guy doing the runs was impressed by how fast the car went through the RPM's.
KC
#244
Please re-read Post 235. Meanwhile, please try not to hi jack KC's thread. I said turbo glowing in general not specific part. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRU2lDCSfBU
I will, however put in my opinion.
I have tried quite a few different setups, at least seven or so, both intercooled and non intercooled.
With my current setup, I am seeing on average, 35-50 degrees above ambient without boost. Just cruising. Add an average of 20-40 degrees with boost. If its 100 degrees outside, I might see 155-190 degrees with boost. From everything I've read, this is not horribly excessive. Some intercooled turbo setups are still quite a bit higher than this.
The reason I have taken the IC back out, the car is more fun to drive without it. What's the point of making more power if the car is less fun to drive?
Honestly, the temps do still make me a little nervous. Not so much now, but I'm a little bit worried about the hot North Carolina summer months.
I am going to re-install the IC to give it another try. I have not tried using it since I have fixed the last few problems that I've had. Fixing these problems cured quite a few drivability issues I was having so now, the IC might not take away as much of the "fun to drive" factor since the car is now running way better than the last time I tried using it.
BTW, with the IC, I was seeing temps around 10-15 above ambient and very little increase with boost. A dramatic difference for sure.
KC
#245
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (3)
Please re-read Post 235. Meanwhile, please try not to hi jack KC's thread. I said turbo glowing in general not specific part. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRU2lDCSfBU
Jon
#246
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (3)
Your right, I reread the post and it helps me to explain alot better, thanks man.
No duh, thats cuz s/c dont have turbine housings, compressors vary rarely glow dude, and turbine housing glow because of hot exhaust focusing in a small area with alot of velocity, absolutely nothing to do with air charges in cmopressor housings.
Then you post this.... Mase sure to read the part where they say that it has an integrated aftercooler.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...=94&cat_key=11
K.C.:
Ok seriously I'm done now. Im really not trying to be a **** but all this is just so filled with b.s. that something needs to be said before someone reads this and gets wrong ideas about alot of things.You say that some turbo/I/C setups are running well above ambient temps. I dont doubt that at all, but there are factors such as design of the I/C (i.e. bar and plate or tube and fin), size of the I/C, amount of boost, engine temps, etc. that need to be considered along with that and on about 99% of those I can almost guarantee something wasn't set up correctly. You are building everything yourself and learning on the way and there is no better way to do it than that, excellent job so far. But remember the I/C is not just for performance, its for safety. If an I/C system is set up correctly, its A++++ all across the board with very little response disturbance.
Jon
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...=94&cat_key=11
K.C.:
Ok seriously I'm done now. Im really not trying to be a **** but all this is just so filled with b.s. that something needs to be said before someone reads this and gets wrong ideas about alot of things.You say that some turbo/I/C setups are running well above ambient temps. I dont doubt that at all, but there are factors such as design of the I/C (i.e. bar and plate or tube and fin), size of the I/C, amount of boost, engine temps, etc. that need to be considered along with that and on about 99% of those I can almost guarantee something wasn't set up correctly. You are building everything yourself and learning on the way and there is no better way to do it than that, excellent job so far. But remember the I/C is not just for performance, its for safety. If an I/C system is set up correctly, its A++++ all across the board with very little response disturbance.
Jon
Last edited by 2jzlex; 03-21-08 at 09:29 PM.
#247
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I get it and I like following the drama.
Bottom line is, some S/C kits dont come with any type of cooler. It safe to not run an intercooler to a point, but you will always make more power with a cooler air charge.
As far as the air charge temps of an S/C compared to a turbo under the same psi, the turbo may be slightly higher due to the relationship between the turbo and the exhaust housing but the main component of heat in this situation is the fact that compressed air = heat.
Bottom line is, some S/C kits dont come with any type of cooler. It safe to not run an intercooler to a point, but you will always make more power with a cooler air charge.
As far as the air charge temps of an S/C compared to a turbo under the same psi, the turbo may be slightly higher due to the relationship between the turbo and the exhaust housing but the main component of heat in this situation is the fact that compressed air = heat.
#250
Lexus Test Driver
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Jon
Last edited by 2jzlex; 03-21-08 at 11:16 PM.
#251
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Lets get this thread back to KC's build! No more talking on his thread about this. Start your own thread or take it to PM.
Thanks for understanding.
Thanks for understanding.
#253
I'm going to give the IC another go. I have not tried it recently, since the car is running as well as it is.
Watching the logs I made while on the dyno, my intake temps were hitting 160+, 70 outside. I still don't think the temps are too extreme, but it couldn't hurt to retry the IC anyway. I have also thought about using a smaller one, the one I have is fairly large.
KC
Watching the logs I made while on the dyno, my intake temps were hitting 160+, 70 outside. I still don't think the temps are too extreme, but it couldn't hurt to retry the IC anyway. I have also thought about using a smaller one, the one I have is fairly large.
KC
#254
Update.
So, I'm very obsessive. So much so, I will be hitting the dyno again tomorrow, assuming I can sneak out of work for long enough.
Changes I've made since last week.
I put the intercooler back in. The car is driving great with the intercooler, better than it ever has before. I don't know if its better now because I'm running speed density or if its better because I fixed a few other problems I had, or both. Boost does come in a little slower, but its barely noticeable. My intake temps are fantastic. Last night on my way home from work, I drove the **** out of the car. It was about 50 degrees outside and I couldn't do anything to make my temps go above 86 degrees. The intercooler should be worth some horsepower, my temps are about 50-60 degrees lower than they were without.
My bypass valve was leaking. This could've been a huge loss of power. I've had some seamingly insignificant leaks really screw with me in the past. I fixed the leak and have tested it several times, seems to be ok now.
Couple of things I want to try while on the dyno.
I am very curious to see what I might gain while running without the airfilter and intake pipe installed. Just for a dyno run or two of course. I've recently done some reading on the Vortech power pipes. Most people that upgrade to them claim to get an additional 1-2 psi. This is a dramatic result from simply upgrading the intake pipe to 4 inches. I currently have a 3 inch pipe in place for the intake and the inlet is 3.5 inches, so I think I would likely gain a bit, even if I just upgraded to 3.5 inch pipe. I really don't think I could make 4 inch pipe fit.
I would like to take the drive belt off, just to get an idea of my NA power. I wouldn't bother putting the stock belt on so the results would be NA minus power steering, ac, and alternator.
I might try and due a little self tuning, if they'll let me.
KC
So, I'm very obsessive. So much so, I will be hitting the dyno again tomorrow, assuming I can sneak out of work for long enough.
Changes I've made since last week.
I put the intercooler back in. The car is driving great with the intercooler, better than it ever has before. I don't know if its better now because I'm running speed density or if its better because I fixed a few other problems I had, or both. Boost does come in a little slower, but its barely noticeable. My intake temps are fantastic. Last night on my way home from work, I drove the **** out of the car. It was about 50 degrees outside and I couldn't do anything to make my temps go above 86 degrees. The intercooler should be worth some horsepower, my temps are about 50-60 degrees lower than they were without.
My bypass valve was leaking. This could've been a huge loss of power. I've had some seamingly insignificant leaks really screw with me in the past. I fixed the leak and have tested it several times, seems to be ok now.
Couple of things I want to try while on the dyno.
I am very curious to see what I might gain while running without the airfilter and intake pipe installed. Just for a dyno run or two of course. I've recently done some reading on the Vortech power pipes. Most people that upgrade to them claim to get an additional 1-2 psi. This is a dramatic result from simply upgrading the intake pipe to 4 inches. I currently have a 3 inch pipe in place for the intake and the inlet is 3.5 inches, so I think I would likely gain a bit, even if I just upgraded to 3.5 inch pipe. I really don't think I could make 4 inch pipe fit.
I would like to take the drive belt off, just to get an idea of my NA power. I wouldn't bother putting the stock belt on so the results would be NA minus power steering, ac, and alternator.
I might try and due a little self tuning, if they'll let me.
KC
#255
Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about the HKS pod filters?
Or, the Greddy Airnix?
Other filter recomendations? Keep in mind I have very little room between the supercharger and the radiator.
The best solution for my intake would be to simply put a high flow filter directly on the inlet without any piping. I would be sucking in some hot air, but I think the intercooler would take care of most of the extra heat.
KC
Or, the Greddy Airnix?
Other filter recomendations? Keep in mind I have very little room between the supercharger and the radiator.
The best solution for my intake would be to simply put a high flow filter directly on the inlet without any piping. I would be sucking in some hot air, but I think the intercooler would take care of most of the extra heat.
KC