If you can read Oscilloscopes, look at this gem GE vs GTE
#1
If you can read Oscilloscopes, look at this gem GE vs GTE
If that doesn't make you happy in your pants, I dont know what will
If someone doesn't post an answer to what this shows, I'll respond myself and let you know. But this has me VERY excited and confirms a hunch that I had while working on a project of mine.
If someone doesn't post an answer to what this shows, I'll respond myself and let you know. But this has me VERY excited and confirms a hunch that I had while working on a project of mine.
#4
The signal the sensors put out is the same
IE: GE distributor puts out the same exact signals as the 2 cam position sensors and the crank position sensor on the GTE
Also: these pins, between USDM,JDM,GE,and GTE ECUs are located in the same exact place on the ECU harness plug!!
IE: GE distributor puts out the same exact signals as the 2 cam position sensors and the crank position sensor on the GTE
Also: these pins, between USDM,JDM,GE,and GTE ECUs are located in the same exact place on the ECU harness plug!!
#7
Hmm... I thought this was common knowledge. The GE and GTE measure the cam/crank positions using different mounted sensors, but the signal conditioning is the same - namely variable reluctance pickups using a pickup coil and a timed tooth synchronized with cam or crank rotation. Basically, the sensors act as mini A/C generators and output oscillating waveforms.
In your case, it literally is a copy right out of the toyota manual. G1 or G2 represents 1 event for 720 degrees of crankshaft angle coming off the cam, and the NE signal indicates crank triggers. From your picture, it's easy to deduce there are 12 crank signals for each full crank rotation; consequently, there are 12 crank teeth in both cases. As you stated above, however, the crank triggers are actually on the distributor for the GE motor.
I guess I'm missing your point. Toyota uses similar sensors through many of its products. However, there are differences in the GE and GTE sensors that do matter with respect to the ECUs. For example, the metering of air on the GE motor is done with a Karman Vortex Type mass air flow sensor. The GTE, however, uses a Hot Wire Type. Unfortunately, I don't think they can be swapped.
I'm always open to learning something new; so, I'm interesting in understanding the importance of your findings.
Thanks,
-scott
In your case, it literally is a copy right out of the toyota manual. G1 or G2 represents 1 event for 720 degrees of crankshaft angle coming off the cam, and the NE signal indicates crank triggers. From your picture, it's easy to deduce there are 12 crank signals for each full crank rotation; consequently, there are 12 crank teeth in both cases. As you stated above, however, the crank triggers are actually on the distributor for the GE motor.
I guess I'm missing your point. Toyota uses similar sensors through many of its products. However, there are differences in the GE and GTE sensors that do matter with respect to the ECUs. For example, the metering of air on the GE motor is done with a Karman Vortex Type mass air flow sensor. The GTE, however, uses a Hot Wire Type. Unfortunately, I don't think they can be swapped.
I'm always open to learning something new; so, I'm interesting in understanding the importance of your findings.
Thanks,
-scott
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#8
If you are suggesting that you can use this to cam sync the AEM and run TT coils, you sure can. Or you can use a single pickup hal or mag sensor on the cam gear and run individual coils; a really simple setup would be the LS1 coils with their built in ignitors (one per coil) to eliminate the distributor, if thats what you are trying to do.
Ian
Ian
#10
motorheaddown,
you're really close, but I was thinking going a little further. I'm quite certain this wasn't common knowledge at all though. There's no reference to it anywhere unless you actually dig deep into signal analysis info about the 7M and 2jz. Most references to it deal with wiring up AEMs.
GTE ECU on GE harness... specifically, JDM ECU The distributor could even be used with it since the ignition signals are the same (just split among 6 outputs vs 1 for the GTE vs GE)
cheap, boost-friendly timing and fuel maps using a sensor that has a linear relationship between pressure and voltage. Makes for easy upgrades.. enter 3bar sensor and ~560-570cc injectors vs stock 440 and 2.3bar. Once could most assuredly use an SAFC to tune a big map sensor for larger injectors. Like a 3.5bar for
~660-680cc injectors. If they got too out of hand, one could use a greddy emanage blue since it can modify actual injector pulsewidths and also handle timing. emanage can datalog with wideband input too and is very affordable.
And as for ditching the distributor... I already know of a way go coil-on-plug with a simple add-on electronics board using the stock GE ECU. But wouldnt need that with this. A GTE ignitor and wires run would fix the issue for all time. Only question is how the coils will be run under the big GE intake manifold
you're really close, but I was thinking going a little further. I'm quite certain this wasn't common knowledge at all though. There's no reference to it anywhere unless you actually dig deep into signal analysis info about the 7M and 2jz. Most references to it deal with wiring up AEMs.
GTE ECU on GE harness... specifically, JDM ECU The distributor could even be used with it since the ignition signals are the same (just split among 6 outputs vs 1 for the GTE vs GE)
cheap, boost-friendly timing and fuel maps using a sensor that has a linear relationship between pressure and voltage. Makes for easy upgrades.. enter 3bar sensor and ~560-570cc injectors vs stock 440 and 2.3bar. Once could most assuredly use an SAFC to tune a big map sensor for larger injectors. Like a 3.5bar for
~660-680cc injectors. If they got too out of hand, one could use a greddy emanage blue since it can modify actual injector pulsewidths and also handle timing. emanage can datalog with wideband input too and is very affordable.
And as for ditching the distributor... I already know of a way go coil-on-plug with a simple add-on electronics board using the stock GE ECU. But wouldnt need that with this. A GTE ignitor and wires run would fix the issue for all time. Only question is how the coils will be run under the big GE intake manifold
Last edited by Bean; 02-25-08 at 12:01 AM.
#11
Ok... I thought you were going in that direction but with the USDM GTE ECU not the JDM GTE. That's why I mentioned the mass airflow sensors. You would definitely have to address the mass airflow signals because they are different.
Swapping in a GTE ECU would certainly work and could probably be done without the GTE ignitor right now. Years ago, the craze was LS1 coils with the AEM. Why?... because LS1 coils have an integrated igniter and could be driven directly from the AEM. Additionally, they are very large coils providing a more powerful spark on OEM dwell. Unfortunately, it did not work for everyone.
I tried it as far back as '03... I don't remember, exactly. That's when I did the research about G1, G2, and NE:
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf064.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf065.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf097.jpg
and here
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h24.pdf pages 13 - 15
Anyway, LS1 coils will fit under the GE intake, but it's very tight, and I'm pretty sure it will work with the GTE ECU without an igniter. However, you'll need a light spring (ala TT coils) to adapt the spark post of the LS1 coil to contact the top of the spark plug... been there, done that. Obviously, the GE harness will have to be augmented with 5 additional wires to drive coils 2 - 5. You'll also have to address the mass air flow sensor as mentioned above.
-scott
Swapping in a GTE ECU would certainly work and could probably be done without the GTE ignitor right now. Years ago, the craze was LS1 coils with the AEM. Why?... because LS1 coils have an integrated igniter and could be driven directly from the AEM. Additionally, they are very large coils providing a more powerful spark on OEM dwell. Unfortunately, it did not work for everyone.
I tried it as far back as '03... I don't remember, exactly. That's when I did the research about G1, G2, and NE:
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf064.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf065.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf097.jpg
and here
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h24.pdf pages 13 - 15
Anyway, LS1 coils will fit under the GE intake, but it's very tight, and I'm pretty sure it will work with the GTE ECU without an igniter. However, you'll need a light spring (ala TT coils) to adapt the spark post of the LS1 coil to contact the top of the spark plug... been there, done that. Obviously, the GE harness will have to be augmented with 5 additional wires to drive coils 2 - 5. You'll also have to address the mass air flow sensor as mentioned above.
-scott
Last edited by motorheaddown; 02-25-08 at 05:42 AM.
#12
Ok... I thought you were going in that direction but with the USDM GTE ECU not the JDM GTE. That's why I mentioned the mass airflow sensors. You would definitely have to address the mass airflow signals because they are different.
Swapping in a GTE ECU would certainly work and could probably be done without the GTE ignitor right now. Years ago, the craze was LS1 coils with the AEM. Why?... because LS1 coils have an integrated igniter and could be driven directly from the AEM. Additionally, they are very large coils providing a more powerful spark on OEM dwell. Unfortunately, it did not work for everyone.
I tried it as far back as '03... I don't remember, exactly. That's when I did the research about G1, G2, and NE:
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf064.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf065.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf097.jpg
and here
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h24.pdf pages 13 - 15
Anyway, LS1 coils will fit under the GE intake, but it's very tight, and I'm pretty sure it will work with the GTE ECU without an igniter. However, you'll need a light spring (ala TT coils) to adapt the spark post of the LS1 coil to contact the top of the spark plug... been there, done that. Obviously, the GE harness will have to be augmented with 5 additional wires to drive coils 2 - 5. You'll also have to address the mass air flow sensor as mentioned above.
-scott
Swapping in a GTE ECU would certainly work and could probably be done without the GTE ignitor right now. Years ago, the craze was LS1 coils with the AEM. Why?... because LS1 coils have an integrated igniter and could be driven directly from the AEM. Additionally, they are very large coils providing a more powerful spark on OEM dwell. Unfortunately, it did not work for everyone.
I tried it as far back as '03... I don't remember, exactly. That's when I did the research about G1, G2, and NE:
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf064.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf065.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf097.jpg
and here
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h24.pdf pages 13 - 15
Anyway, LS1 coils will fit under the GE intake, but it's very tight, and I'm pretty sure it will work with the GTE ECU without an igniter. However, you'll need a light spring (ala TT coils) to adapt the spark post of the LS1 coil to contact the top of the spark plug... been there, done that. Obviously, the GE harness will have to be augmented with 5 additional wires to drive coils 2 - 5. You'll also have to address the mass air flow sensor as mentioned above.
-scott
Wish I had seen some of that info earlier Any extra info on adapting a light spring in the coil to adapt the spark post in the LS1 coils? And yes I agree, this could be done with the stock ignitor and using the stock distributor/coil
Last edited by Bean; 03-09-08 at 04:57 PM.
#13
You'll need two things to adapt LS1 coils, rubber boots to seal the plug and coil, and a spring from the coil post to the top of the spark plug. There also has to be a GM pigtail that's required, but I don't remember what was used.
AnArkey on SF adapted the LS1 solution for the AEM. However, I don't know if he's still around. At one time he worked for TorqueFreaks.
-scott
AnArkey on SF adapted the LS1 solution for the AEM. However, I don't know if he's still around. At one time he worked for TorqueFreaks.
-scott
#15
You'll need two things to adapt LS1 coils, rubber boots to seal the plug and coil, and a spring from the coil post to the top of the spark plug. There also has to be a GM pigtail that's required, but I don't remember what was used.
AnArkey on SF adapted the LS1 solution for the AEM. However, I don't know if he's still around. At one time he worked for TorqueFreaks.
-scott
AnArkey on SF adapted the LS1 solution for the AEM. However, I don't know if he's still around. At one time he worked for TorqueFreaks.
-scott
Biggest benefit here to NA-T users is to get rid of the bulkiness of the distributor. The distributor has been proven to handle A LOT of power.