OBX ITB's???
09-13-10, 09:53 AM
#31
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you missed the point. building reliable, sense making n/a HP comes with a high price..very similar to the cars you used as an example. No it has nothing to do with 1/4 mi times, but the factor of weight has everything to do with an SC and therefore the 1/4mi times were merely an example, and comparison. Its a 4k lbs car (depending on driver weight, gas tank level, sound systems, etc.) that ITB's, stand alone EMS, and other supporting mods dont make much of a difference performance wise, when for the same cost (or less) you can simply make the same or double the power by going f/i..
09-13-10, 12:02 PM
#32
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Once again these prices are an approximate not the actual price. But even so in my calculator both of the set ups are pretty close in price (n/a may be a tiny bit cheaper) but with no doubt you will make probably double the horse power with the turbo application,...but non streetable, and probably useless HP, because u will have to make the car in to a dyno queen, because u would have so much freaking horse power that u wouldn't be able to put it down to the wheels even in quarter mile all u would have is wheel spin....
Your points not making any sense, somehow if you achieve increases hp though a turbo your tires become defective and the n/a car making **** for hp will beat you?
My 3 liter BMW I6 makes full boost by ~2000rpms, and has full torque at that point... Its much more responsive than the 1uz that's throttle response can be measured on a calendar. the 1uz with a set of gt30r's would spool incredibly quick, make more power on pump gas, race gas, on the street, on the track, doesn't matter. power is power, and as long as your not a complete moron on building a turbo sc4 you will be much better off going F/I.
BTW, on the 2jzgte people are boosting 20+ lbs on a daily driven car when the engine is stock internals with over a 100k miles on it. If your tuner can't make a reliable F/I setup then you should tell him to give up and close shop because its not rocket science to make power reliably.
Last edited by rcracer_tx; 09-13-10 at 02:36 PM.
09-13-10, 11:39 PM
#33
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Your points not making any sense, somehow if you achieve increases hp though a turbo your tires become defective and the n/a car making **** for hp will beat you?
My 3 liter BMW I6 makes full boost by ~2000rpms, and has full torque at that point... Its much more responsive than the 1uz that's throttle response can be measured on a calendar. the 1uz with a set of gt30r's would spool incredibly quick, make more power on pump gas, race gas, on the street, on the track, doesn't matter. power is power, and as long as your not a complete moron on building a turbo sc4 you will be much better off going F/I.
BTW, on the 2jzgte people are boosting 20+ lbs on a daily driven car when the engine is stock internals with over a 100k miles on it. If your tuner can't make a reliable F/I setup then you should tell him to give up and close shop because its not rocket science to make power reliably.
My 3 liter BMW I6 makes full boost by ~2000rpms, and has full torque at that point... Its much more responsive than the 1uz that's throttle response can be measured on a calendar. the 1uz with a set of gt30r's would spool incredibly quick, make more power on pump gas, race gas, on the street, on the track, doesn't matter. power is power, and as long as your not a complete moron on building a turbo sc4 you will be much better off going F/I.
BTW, on the 2jzgte people are boosting 20+ lbs on a daily driven car when the engine is stock internals with over a 100k miles on it. If your tuner can't make a reliable F/I setup then you should tell him to give up and close shop because its not rocket science to make power reliably.
09-14-10, 08:05 AM
#34
So I dont know what kind of crooked calculator he's using, or what he is missing when it comes to n/a, but last time I checked AEM standalone is anywhere from $1k-1800, which is just 1/4 of whats needed for a GOOD n/a setup, and already more than 1/2 the cost of a decent na-t setup
09-14-10, 11:51 AM
#35
The problem with N/A modifications is that you need to change so much on the engine, but you're still stuck with the limitations of your block casting
Engines make torque. Then depending on how fast you can rev out that engine it makes horsepower. The torque is created by the sum of the energy generated by each piston during detonation in a combustion cycle. A primary driver of this energy is the mass of stoichiometric mixture of air and fuel burned during the combustion cycle. There are other factors as well, such as the compression of that mix which increases potential energy which is then released on combustion, however the overall mass is the greatest factor.
Compare a 4 liter normally aspirated engine. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is considered to be 1 bar, or 14.5PSI. As the N/A engine takes in air at 14.5PSI it mixes the appropriate level of fuel to maintain a correct A/F ratio, then detonates it. Simple.
Now that same 4 liter engine is boosted at 1 bar (so double atmospheric) and running 14.5PSI of boost. The mass of air that has been brought into the engine has roughly doubled, therefore roughly twice the amount of fuel can be added. Therefore, the effective mass of air/fuel is roughly equivalent to an 8 liter version of the same engine.
This is of course an over simplification but you see my point. As for how to get more horsepower out of an N/A 4 liter? You can get plenty more, but getting torque is going to be extremely difficult because you cannot force any more air in per combustion cycle. You can also make it easier to flow in and out. Consider the ferrari 430 (high end cars used in a previous example in this thread). That 4.3 liter only makes 340ft/lbs of torque. Nothing crazy. The best they can do with a 4.3 I'm sure. But the 480hp comes from revving out to 8500- a very expensive process building a moderately reliable engine that can rev that high consistently.
Making N/A power is ALL about either displacement or revs. You simply can't make much N/A power reliably with a 4 liter. You can with a 6-7 liter like GM has with their newest line of LS motors. But even then, the big power guys are using FI.
Engines make torque. Then depending on how fast you can rev out that engine it makes horsepower. The torque is created by the sum of the energy generated by each piston during detonation in a combustion cycle. A primary driver of this energy is the mass of stoichiometric mixture of air and fuel burned during the combustion cycle. There are other factors as well, such as the compression of that mix which increases potential energy which is then released on combustion, however the overall mass is the greatest factor.
Compare a 4 liter normally aspirated engine. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is considered to be 1 bar, or 14.5PSI. As the N/A engine takes in air at 14.5PSI it mixes the appropriate level of fuel to maintain a correct A/F ratio, then detonates it. Simple.
Now that same 4 liter engine is boosted at 1 bar (so double atmospheric) and running 14.5PSI of boost. The mass of air that has been brought into the engine has roughly doubled, therefore roughly twice the amount of fuel can be added. Therefore, the effective mass of air/fuel is roughly equivalent to an 8 liter version of the same engine.
This is of course an over simplification but you see my point. As for how to get more horsepower out of an N/A 4 liter? You can get plenty more, but getting torque is going to be extremely difficult because you cannot force any more air in per combustion cycle. You can also make it easier to flow in and out. Consider the ferrari 430 (high end cars used in a previous example in this thread). That 4.3 liter only makes 340ft/lbs of torque. Nothing crazy. The best they can do with a 4.3 I'm sure. But the 480hp comes from revving out to 8500- a very expensive process building a moderately reliable engine that can rev that high consistently.
Making N/A power is ALL about either displacement or revs. You simply can't make much N/A power reliably with a 4 liter. You can with a 6-7 liter like GM has with their newest line of LS motors. But even then, the big power guys are using FI.
09-14-10, 02:40 PM
#36
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So I dont know what kind of crooked calculator he's using, or what he is missing when it comes to n/a, but last time I checked AEM standalone is anywhere from $1k-1800, which is just 1/4 of whats needed for a GOOD n/a setup, and already more than 1/2 the cost of a decent na-t setup[/QUOTE]
ok so bashing is the game here.
did u take the time to actually add up the numbers?..... I honestly don't think so. what part of the calculation is crooked?
so according to all you all of the parts listed are overkill for a build up the right way?..... you should then go buy your self a honda civic and tune it that way you like, no one cares if you blow it.
and AEM yes that is the right price for them, have you heard about Motec?...yep the price posted is for one of their fully stand alone units.
and the set up you have on your 2jz-ge is good for 400hp? great good for you. still you rely solely on the durability of the 2jz, not on the quality of the parts that you put on the build.(maybe the turbo) but to make reliable 600hp on your engine will need more than just the bigger injectors.
i have said it already turbo makes bigger numbers yeah yeah. N/A has it's sweet spots too. my opinion that is it.!
[/QUOTE]ok so bashing is the game here.
did u take the time to actually add up the numbers?..... I honestly don't think so. what part of the calculation is crooked?
so according to all you all of the parts listed are overkill for a build up the right way?..... you should then go buy your self a honda civic and tune it that way you like, no one cares if you blow it.
and AEM yes that is the right price for them, have you heard about Motec?...yep the price posted is for one of their fully stand alone units.
and the set up you have on your 2jz-ge is good for 400hp? great good for you. still you rely solely on the durability of the 2jz, not on the quality of the parts that you put on the build.(maybe the turbo) but to make reliable 600hp on your engine will need more than just the bigger injectors.
i have said it already turbo makes bigger numbers yeah yeah. N/A has it's sweet spots too. my opinion that is it.!
09-14-10, 02:50 PM
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did you actually read what i posted or are you just like this on a daily basis?..Let me re-phrase in to more simple words to see if it hits you.
achieving high power via turbo or supercharger (800hp to 4 digit numbers) will make your car almost impossible to be streetable. because the power would be too much to handle. Since the 1uz wont make all of that even with all of that money invested on the N/A set up, the streetability is way more likely to happen.....no where in the post i mention tires?....or defective anything?
oh and I would put my money on a 400hp n/a sc400 spanking the crap out of a sc3-4 with a 2jz making 4 digit HP on street tires out of the box off course. or at the track lapping. again because all that power it's hard to handle.
......
09-14-10, 03:06 PM
#38
ok so bashing is the game here.
did u take the time to actually add up the numbers?..... I honestly don't think so. what part of the calculation is crooked?
so according to all you all of the parts listed are overkill for a build up the right way?..... you should then go buy your self a honda civic and tune it that way you like, no one cares if you blow it.
and AEM yes that is the right price for them, have you heard about Motec?...yep the price posted is for one of their fully stand alone units.
and the set up you have on your 2jz-ge is good for 400hp? great good for you. still you rely solely on the durability of the 2jz, not on the quality of the parts that you put on the build.(maybe the turbo) but to make reliable 600hp on your engine will need more than just the bigger injectors.
i have said it already turbo makes bigger numbers yeah yeah. N/A has it's sweet spots too. my opinion that is it.!
did u take the time to actually add up the numbers?..... I honestly don't think so. what part of the calculation is crooked?
so according to all you all of the parts listed are overkill for a build up the right way?..... you should then go buy your self a honda civic and tune it that way you like, no one cares if you blow it.
and AEM yes that is the right price for them, have you heard about Motec?...yep the price posted is for one of their fully stand alone units.
and the set up you have on your 2jz-ge is good for 400hp? great good for you. still you rely solely on the durability of the 2jz, not on the quality of the parts that you put on the build.(maybe the turbo) but to make reliable 600hp on your engine will need more than just the bigger injectors.
i have said it already turbo makes bigger numbers yeah yeah. N/A has it's sweet spots too. my opinion that is it.!
The price you listed for a standalone doesn't even come close to the price of a motec. And motec is not the only company that builds an ECU that will allow you to put down good reliable numbers. AEM, ViPEC, ProEFI... heard of them?
Durability of the 2jz? The 2jz has more R&D behind it than probably all of the aftermarket parts available for it combined, so yes relying on the reliability of one of the most reliable high power engines from one of the most reliable brands in the world that actually has case studies and business models done on their manufacturing processes sounds like a good bet to me.
Sergio, just be real man and I won't knock you either way- have you built a high horsepower car? Have you been in one? (400+) You just don't seem to be speaking from experience, but rather from speculation and forum information. Which if you're learning that's cool, I mean we all started somewhere!
Last edited by Klaus; 09-14-10 at 03:25 PM.
09-14-10, 03:12 PM
#39
ok so bashing is the game here.
did u take the time to actually add up the numbers?..... I honestly don't think so. what part of the calculation is crooked?
so according to all you all of the parts listed are overkill for a build up the right way?..... you should then go buy your self a honda civic and tune it that way you like, no one cares if you blow it.
and AEM yes that is the right price for them, have you heard about Motec?...yep the price posted is for one of their fully stand alone units.
and the set up you have on your 2jz-ge is good for 400hp? great good for you. still you rely solely on the durability of the 2jz, not on the quality of the parts that you put on the build.(maybe the turbo) but to make reliable 600hp on your engine will need more than just the bigger injectors.
i have said it already turbo makes bigger numbers yeah yeah. N/A has it's sweet spots too. my opinion that is it.!
How are you not hearing yourself...even a Motec for the 1UZ is $1k, cams are another $1k without the core, $750 with a core..Thats $2k right there not including valve adjustments or the ITB setup, not to mention custom throttle linkages, sensors (MAP and IAT), and a way to raise compression to at least make it a true high comp. engine...sorry but 10:1 compression isnt very high.
And I wasnt bashing you, but when you try and continue on your quest of information dominance when SEVERAL people have already made solid points downing your POV and information, your asking for responses your not going to like. to build a RELIABLE, n/a 1UZ to over 400rwhp, your going to need way more work than just a stand alone, cams, and ITBS..
Several members here (and you need to look at more na-t setups too, cause 600hp on a stock block 2JZ is very easy to accomplish) have gone na-t and have easily made 400+rwhp for less than $5k..not to mention the number of GTE swaps that have accomplished the same.
The n/a vs. f/i argument has been going on for years. Bottom line is it has been proven time and time again in all kinds of engines, f/i will yield greater gain with less effort. You can argue that till your blue in the face, or until people argue with you and you take it as bashing. But look at the NHRA, NIRA, D1GP, Pro AM, JGTC, 90% of the cars used in these events rely on f/i to make power. Better yet go hang out on a C5/6 forum, or an SN95 forum, they will tell you hands down that even with the displacement they have, f/i is the way to go cause you can make "cheap" rwhp with a "bolt-on" kit either turbo or supercharger.
09-14-10, 08:34 PM
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i will keep saying it....you just don't get me. I love turbo engines, but I love N/A too!!!!! i understand force induction is the way to go for bigger numbers, but in the case of an N/A car big numbers aren't reachable... then u just go for a full balance set up.
I love N/A because they are the underdogs. I used to be an AE86 owner so I think it stuck to me. but i also had a MKIII supra and that is why I love turbo engine (even though the 7MGTE sucks).
done arguing here. but seriously the only thing you guys have on me is that i messed up the prices, but every single thing I posted there is needed for a fully built turbo car. yay or ney?.
I love N/A because they are the underdogs. I used to be an AE86 owner so I think it stuck to me. but i also had a MKIII supra and that is why I love turbo engine (even though the 7MGTE sucks).
done arguing here. but seriously the only thing you guys have on me is that i messed up the prices, but every single thing I posted there is needed for a fully built turbo car. yay or ney?.
09-15-10, 10:20 AM
#42
achieving high power via turbo or supercharger (800hp to 4 digit numbers) will make your car almost impossible to be streetable. because the power would be too much to handle. Since the 1uz wont make all of that even with all of that money invested on the N/A set up, the streetability is way more likely to happen.....no where in the post i mention tires?....or defective anything?
oh and I would put my money on a 400hp n/a sc400 spanking the crap out of a sc3-4 with a 2jz making 4 digit HP on street tires out of the box off course. or at the track lapping. again because all that power it's hard to handle.
......
oh and I would put my money on a 400hp n/a sc400 spanking the crap out of a sc3-4 with a 2jz making 4 digit HP on street tires out of the box off course. or at the track lapping. again because all that power it's hard to handle.
......
let me give you an idea of what it takes to make a 400hp n/a 1UZ.
And then you can tell us which one would be more streetable.
the guy can't even idle under 1800 rpms.
Read:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/3127456-post4.html
you know you can have individual throttle bodies and boost them too?
all you have to do is create a plenum that feeds into the throttle bodies.
could be the best of both worlds.
oh and the next video on that list is a 1uz with individual throttle bodies lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba8sT...layer_embedded
this one is even cooler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm5k1ntJNBU&NR=1
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-15-10 at 10:30 AM.
09-15-10, 11:50 AM
#43
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i will keep saying it....you just don't get me. I love turbo engines, but I love N/A too!!!!! i understand force induction is the way to go for bigger numbers, but in the case of an N/A car big numbers aren't reachable... then u just go for a full balance set up.
I love N/A because they are the underdogs. I used to be an AE86 owner so I think it stuck to me. but i also had a MKIII supra and that is why I love turbo engine (even though the 7MGTE sucks).
done arguing here. but seriously the only thing you guys have on me is that i messed up the prices, but every single thing I posted there is needed for a fully built turbo car. yay or ney?.
I love N/A because they are the underdogs. I used to be an AE86 owner so I think it stuck to me. but i also had a MKIII supra and that is why I love turbo engine (even though the 7MGTE sucks).
done arguing here. but seriously the only thing you guys have on me is that i messed up the prices, but every single thing I posted there is needed for a fully built turbo car. yay or ney?.
09-15-10, 01:50 PM
#44
Not to be an *** or anything. You guys are making great and valid arguments. It's great to see that there are other people on here who are educated in the workings of combustion engines. But a correction for you Klaus. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi
