What clutch for NA-T W58?
08-25-11, 08:48 AM
#3
Why does everyone insist on pucked clutches?
He said Reliable.
Pucks= Crazy Input shaft Shock.
Shock + W58 = Thread titles like: "W58 blew, R154 or V160?"
I would rather have a bigger left leg from a monster pressure plate, then a shattered transmission from "D1 Dorifto Kingu Xtreme Mega 6-puck".
He said Reliable.
Pucks= Crazy Input shaft Shock.
Shock + W58 = Thread titles like: "W58 blew, R154 or V160?"
I would rather have a bigger left leg from a monster pressure plate, then a shattered transmission from "D1 Dorifto Kingu Xtreme Mega 6-puck".
08-25-11, 09:12 AM
#5
I got the ACT Extreme pressure plate and 6 puck sprung disk.
Clutch grabs hard pretty much whatever you can throw at a w58 it can handle.
Pedal has less than an inch of engagement and First gear is an on/off sort of affair usually with lots of squeaking involved.
If I rev it up and take off or launch it the clutch is quiet. try to slip it and it starts squeaking.
Other than that It shifts like butter at high speeds, definately holds power no problem.
If I had to do it over I would get the ACT heavy duty pressure plate and the strongest full face clutch they have, that would make for a better pedal feel and engagement while still holding the same power a w58 can.
Clutch grabs hard pretty much whatever you can throw at a w58 it can handle.
Pedal has less than an inch of engagement and First gear is an on/off sort of affair usually with lots of squeaking involved.
If I rev it up and take off or launch it the clutch is quiet. try to slip it and it starts squeaking.
Other than that It shifts like butter at high speeds, definately holds power no problem.
If I had to do it over I would get the ACT heavy duty pressure plate and the strongest full face clutch they have, that would make for a better pedal feel and engagement while still holding the same power a w58 can.
08-25-11, 09:37 AM
#6
I echo what Ali said. The 6 puck will hold the power and bite like mad, but modulation sucks, chatter sucks, noise sucks etc. Get a HD PP and a full face street disk. I would not recommend a super heavy PP like the xtreme though, since crankwalk does happen on these engines.
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08-25-11, 09:56 AM
#7
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You can't have a Crankwalk with the W58 because it's a push type Setup and the
R154/V60 are pull type.
You get the squeeking noise andchirping noise if the clutch has not been broken the right the first time.
R154/V60 are pull type.
You get the squeeking noise andchirping noise if the clutch has not been broken the right the first time.
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The crank can walk forward just as well as backwards...
08-25-11, 10:13 AM
#9
I still bypassed the clutch switch in fear of crank walk but yeah the whole push vs pull is very interesting. Its pretty hard to break in an extreme PP and a 6 puck sprung disk apparently, the thing chatters like mad unless you feed it rpms, so there is a chance I didn't do it properly.
the thrust bearing is pulled off of the clutch to disengage instead of being pushed into it (which then pushes on the crank).
the thrust bearing is pulled off of the clutch to disengage instead of being pushed into it (which then pushes on the crank).
Last edited by Ali SC3; 08-25-11 at 10:37 AM. Reason: removed wrong info
08-25-11, 10:17 AM
#10
Push/pull makes no difference. The thrust bearings are both fed from the main that they straddle, so its not like the front gets more or less lube than the rear. Heavy PP forces coupled with high rpm will wipe the oil film off the thrust bearing regardless of direction of force.
08-25-11, 10:26 AM
#11
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As far as i know you shouldn't have CW with the W58.
That's why twins/ triple or quad clutch is recommend for HHP application with these 2 trannys and majority of them comes with the push type conversion kit.
With the W58 crankwalk is the last thing to worry about
That's why twins/ triple or quad clutch is recommend for HHP application with these 2 trannys and majority of them comes with the push type conversion kit.
With the W58 crankwalk is the last thing to worry about
08-25-11, 10:29 AM
#12
RPS Max Clutch with OEM disc
I have been using this Set-Up with no issues so far. Pedal is a little stiffer than stock.
In an attempt to stay in the limits of the W58. I chose to use the RPS Max Clutch with the OEM disc for the W58
Taken from MVP Motorsports.com
"This package includes the RPS Max Pressure Plate and the RPS Street Disc. It is a full face organic disc that is extremely slippable and the most friendly disc you could ever put in your Supra.
This clutch kit can hold up to 440 foot pounds of torque & is 60% stiffer than stock. This clutch is the most streetable clutch you can buy and will hold 400+ RWHP."
Taken from MVP Motorsports.com
"This package includes the RPS Max Pressure Plate and the RPS Street Disc. It is a full face organic disc that is extremely slippable and the most friendly disc you could ever put in your Supra.
This clutch kit can hold up to 440 foot pounds of torque & is 60% stiffer than stock. This clutch is the most streetable clutch you can buy and will hold 400+ RWHP."
08-25-11, 11:29 AM
#13
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i have a comp clutch stage 4 clutch. 6 puck sprung. from the driving ive done after having the turbo on there hasnt been any slipping problems at 400 whp and 380 ft lbs. just takes some revving while engaging to eliminate chatter like others have said. i think its rated at about 500 ft lbs. cant remember exactly
08-25-11, 11:35 AM
#14
I would still be curious to hear the reasoning behind thinking you can't crankwalk with a push style clutch, though.
I think the push conversions are more to prevent hub ring pullout at high PP pressures and fast pedal movement such as stomping the clutch to powershift.
I dunno. At any rate, I would not tempt fate with a super beefy PP that is made for power levels that a W58 wont support anyways
08-25-11, 01:04 PM
#15
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^Adam you are 100% correct and i was worng about the crankwalk, i got carchitect opinion on this and here it is hope this help.
Adam you are 100% correct and i was worng about the crankwalk, i got carchitect opinion on this and here it is hope this help.Ok. This is the best way to explain this. On a car with a standard transmission the clutch is released by applying pressure to the pressure plate. Most cars use a push clutch but the mk4 is the only supra that uses a pull clutch.
This means exactly what it says. The clutch release bearing pulls the fingers of the pressure plate away from the flywheel. What this causes in the long run?
Well Toyota had engineered the clutch to work with the power of the vehicle. So the pressure was moderate enough to normally prevent the crank from moving. Now adding power is our thirst . This causes the clutch to slip since the pressure plate clamping force is now too weak to hold the power. So when we upgrade the clutch there are multiple options. Of course all of us would like to have a clutch that feels like it gives us some feel back but don't want one which will endup adding meat to the thigh. A lot of manufacturers would change the pressure plate pivot to relieve the pressure but this gives you more travel. They further reduce the marcel in between the clutch disc lining to reduce travel. Some have even worked with other composites like kevlar to give better coefficient of friction and increase clutch life as well. But all boils down to how much friction surface area do you have to work with? An 800 hp clutch will be tough to use. We all endup with a clutch which has a lot of pedal force to release the clutch. This all ends up tearing up the thrust bearing.
So what is the thrust bearing? What does it do?
This bearing prevents the crank from moving front to back. Its supposed to have a marginal amount of movement to allow for the oil to lubricate it. But when the clutch is engaged this bearing is receiving wear. There are two halves to this bearing. But unlike the main or rod bearings, these bearings are only halves and are only used in the upper halves of the block. These bearings are only used in one if the main bearing areas isntead of all seven. Since the Mk4 is a pull clutch it will only have its wear on the rear thrust bearing. Other cars will have its wear on the front thrust bearing.
So how can I prevent this?
If you have a vehicle that has a T-78/ T04r/ T51R you have a lot of power. This requires you to use a very strong clutch. A single disc clutch will endup with a stiffer pedal an cause rather rapid wear on these bearings. A multi-disc like the TRD and RPS twin disc that uses a pull type clutch. The HKS double and tripple disc, I believe, use a push clutch and this may be the reason why you need to use parts of the Mk3 to use this clutch. I'm not so sure if the blitz, Os giken or Tilton carbon fiber clutches are push or pull configurations. Any pull clutch will wear out the rear thrust bearing and the push clutch will wear out the front thrust bearing.
Multi-disc will allow the clutch to have more surface area. By adding multiple discs the friction surface is multiplied so the clamping force doesn't need to be increased as much. This will endup giving you a lot more life out of your thrust bearings. Also the clutch hydraulics will last a lot longer.
So I really can't prevent this from happening?
No, but you can minimise this. You can bypass the clutch start switch to allow the oil pressure to buildup before you use your clutch. This will allow the bearing a lot more lubrication instead of using the clutch while the oil pressure is zero psi while the engine is started early morning.
You could also have the engine gone thru and have the insides of the crankcase machined to accept additional thrust bearings. This may or may not be possible w/o crank modification or a having a custom crank built.
You could also replace the thrust bearings every so many miles to prevent any wear on the engine but it envolves a lot of work.
By the way the auto tranny guys really don't have this kind of problem.
Joe.
This means exactly what it says. The clutch release bearing pulls the fingers of the pressure plate away from the flywheel. What this causes in the long run?
Well Toyota had engineered the clutch to work with the power of the vehicle. So the pressure was moderate enough to normally prevent the crank from moving. Now adding power is our thirst . This causes the clutch to slip since the pressure plate clamping force is now too weak to hold the power. So when we upgrade the clutch there are multiple options. Of course all of us would like to have a clutch that feels like it gives us some feel back but don't want one which will endup adding meat to the thigh. A lot of manufacturers would change the pressure plate pivot to relieve the pressure but this gives you more travel. They further reduce the marcel in between the clutch disc lining to reduce travel. Some have even worked with other composites like kevlar to give better coefficient of friction and increase clutch life as well. But all boils down to how much friction surface area do you have to work with? An 800 hp clutch will be tough to use. We all endup with a clutch which has a lot of pedal force to release the clutch. This all ends up tearing up the thrust bearing.
So what is the thrust bearing? What does it do?
This bearing prevents the crank from moving front to back. Its supposed to have a marginal amount of movement to allow for the oil to lubricate it. But when the clutch is engaged this bearing is receiving wear. There are two halves to this bearing. But unlike the main or rod bearings, these bearings are only halves and are only used in the upper halves of the block. These bearings are only used in one if the main bearing areas isntead of all seven. Since the Mk4 is a pull clutch it will only have its wear on the rear thrust bearing. Other cars will have its wear on the front thrust bearing.
So how can I prevent this?
If you have a vehicle that has a T-78/ T04r/ T51R you have a lot of power. This requires you to use a very strong clutch. A single disc clutch will endup with a stiffer pedal an cause rather rapid wear on these bearings. A multi-disc like the TRD and RPS twin disc that uses a pull type clutch. The HKS double and tripple disc, I believe, use a push clutch and this may be the reason why you need to use parts of the Mk3 to use this clutch. I'm not so sure if the blitz, Os giken or Tilton carbon fiber clutches are push or pull configurations. Any pull clutch will wear out the rear thrust bearing and the push clutch will wear out the front thrust bearing.
Multi-disc will allow the clutch to have more surface area. By adding multiple discs the friction surface is multiplied so the clamping force doesn't need to be increased as much. This will endup giving you a lot more life out of your thrust bearings. Also the clutch hydraulics will last a lot longer.
So I really can't prevent this from happening?
No, but you can minimise this. You can bypass the clutch start switch to allow the oil pressure to buildup before you use your clutch. This will allow the bearing a lot more lubrication instead of using the clutch while the oil pressure is zero psi while the engine is started early morning.
You could also have the engine gone thru and have the insides of the crankcase machined to accept additional thrust bearings. This may or may not be possible w/o crank modification or a having a custom crank built.
You could also replace the thrust bearings every so many miles to prevent any wear on the engine but it envolves a lot of work.
By the way the auto tranny guys really don't have this kind of problem.
Joe.