wayne

iTrader: (27)

I got 427 rwhp @ 15 psi using 6 440's. SC300turbo, Jeff, got 440 rwhp using 6 440's. So it is possible, with the additional hardware, ie. fuel pump, fuel regulator, and an afc or gcc.

ToyLexmods

Guys,

I understand....but if you do the fuel calcs...that is very dangerous. Just opinion...I remember some serious talk on the Supra list where we were searching for the limit of the 440s. Engineers were working on the formulas and it was not pretty. Yes, I know...engineers...but they were working from generally well accepted formulas for fuel calcs.

What are your running for base fuel pressure? Turned up a bit?

I personally pushed 440 injectors to about 360rwhp and had no problems...base fuel pressure at 40psi.....yes, I had all the guages, adj regulator and Mkiv TT fuel pump. 18psi on a To4e 54trim compressor wheel.

henrynguyen

You probably need 550CC Injectors to do that. If you upgraded your car to turbo, why not using 720CC injectors or using 440CC with secondary injectors?

Mkiv94tt

This is the only part of the statement that was not correct. The first mention of this was a few days ago talking to Lance.

Well, i guess somewhere along the lines, there was a failure of communication, i mainly spoke to Bayimports Regarding this kit...

I know that i didn't leave out the information nor did i ever state that an S-AFC or EBC would be included in the price of the kit....furthermore, Toyomoto has never sold the S-AFC, EBC Combo with an SC300 kit or any of our other kits for that matter (Is300 Turbo kit is an inhouse kit which does include it).... I know that i sent Bayimports an Itemized list of what was included with the turbo kit, they then requested that the Intercooler be removed from the overall kit... I complied and that was the end result....

I'm sorry if you are unhappy with the kit, but maybe you should give it a try first and see how it performs. Many on this forum swear by it and seem to have never had any issues... If the pricing of the kit and what it contains, is what you are un-happy about, that is something you would need to speak to lance about directly...

Dan

Hermosa

Just so long as the kit that is sold as 450rwhp can safely and reliably produce the power that is advertised I have no problem. Any kit sold with a rating should naturally be easily tunable to that rating or the marketing should be redesigned. Any engineer would make this kit capable of producing at bare minimum 10% more power than advertised but tuned back for reliability based upon the hardware sold. When something is engineered so close to operating standards this would put up a red flag for anyone. If the fuel system is a bottleneck for 450 reliable rwhp then the kit should come with larger injectors. If someone is running at the claimed hp ratings of the car and it is so close to the limit what happens if the fuel system gets a little dirty and barely starts running lean. Will the engine blow? Sounds dangerous.

pcmw

Hey Guys,

I am just interjecting my comments because I was going to purchase a Toyomoto kit if and when Hermosa got his going with a GOOD EXPERIENCE. I hope it all comes together still. However, with that said, why don't they call Hermosa? Why did they not contact him when they got the returned package from FedEX? Why don't they state that not EVERYTHING is included? Why don't they ANSWER THE PHONE?

Just asking...Other vendors have been banned from this forum for much less.

I think that the engine swap sounds like a better option with every post to this nightmare.

MW

SC300T

A few thoughts:

1. Out of the shippable 400-500rwhp kits out there, what do we have to choose from? SP? they don't really do a kit, but can custom make a kit for a fair price. They have good service. I get the impression that a kit would end up being around the same price as a Toyomoto kit.

2. Fmax? come on. They make junk kits. Its been said time and time again. Manifolds are junk, fittings and hardware are lower quality.

3. Powerhouse? They have promise, but also would do custom, again probably around the same price.

4. Toyomoto? Proven. Reliable. Notoriously difficult to get "good" customer service. They have been giving the Lexus community proven results for many years. You must have patience to deal with Toyomoto. Lance has many other things going on with his racing, and has enough business, so if you're in a hurry don't go with Toyomoto, they're plain slow down there.

5. Swift Racing? Unproven. relatively cheap. unknown quality. Also some questionable product support in the past.

I chose to go with Toyomoto, and have never questioned the decision. Sure the kit took a long time for them to make (3 months) , and parts are often difficult to obtain, but Lance never hesitates to give me a significant amount of phone time to discuss what my intentions are. He is in my mind the most knowledgeable 2JZ NA-T guy in the world.

Hermosa. Hang in there, I know it can be frustrating getting ahold of them but call them up get it resolved. You will only be converted "after" the kit is installed. I'd also suggest that you not worry about the hp numbers---they'll be exactly where you want them when you're finished. They said I'd make 360-380rwhp on my setup, and I ended up with 423 on pump gas. Race gas and we're talking about 500+.

I've gone into round two of the upgrades and have had to replace zero Toyomoto parts, the original kit is a part of my 550-600rwhp plan...

I know what the numbers say on fuel system issues, but believe me, for 450rwhp, the 440cc injectors are plenty. computerwiz made 400+ without any aux injectors and only 330 cc stock ones. Jeff made 440rwhp on 440cc injectors without any problems at all. You'll have enough fuel for your 450rwhp. On my old street setup (423rwhp) I ran on stock injectors without the aux injectors running and the 330s were able to keep up. The reason for the 440cc injectors is that to do larger ones puts you out of the range of good drivability on the stock ECU. There is an intelligent reason to back up the decisions on Lance's kits. With an Apexi S-AFC, 440 cc injectors, and an EGT and air/fuel gauge, just keep an eye on the air/fuel ratios.

As far as the 440cc injectors not needing an Apexi S-AFC, Danny is right, the Lexus AFM upgrade and the 440's are roughtly calibrated for each other and will have decent drivability. As mentioned, I'd also recommend some tweaking via SAFC, though.



just my .03

SC300T

It seems to me like Toyomoto correctly stated everything. EBC and SAFC are not included and should NOT be included in the kit, that's up to the individual. Just like gauges--they're not included. Its assumed that you'll need monitoring equipment. Same for the clutch. Its assumed that you'll need an upgraded clutch. The Lexus V-8 Maf swap will make the fuel system compatible with the 440cc injectors, and you won't absolutely NEED a fuel controller. When you buy a $8000 HKS twin turbo kit, does it come with an EBC and fuel controller? injectors? fuel system? FMIC?

The shipping mistake seemed to me like an honest error. When the shipment came back perhaps they didn't get a chance to look at the returned package yet. As far as not answering the phone---- if he had time to sit around and answer the phone, he wouldn't have time to work on the cars. In case you don't know Lance is NOT a salesman, he's a car guru. He turns wrenches, he's under the hood making these turbo projects do what they're supposed to do. He's just not a sit around and answer the phone type of guy.

Mkiv94tt

Scott,
You made some Very Good points if i do say so myslef!!! LOL...

Hermosa,
As for you not being contacted when half of the kit was returned, i have no answer to that question, but guestamations...

1) Why were you not informed?
Lance, has focused almost 100% of himself to his racing "career
and has been prepping and racing the race car at sanctioned
events. I guess he wasn't able to contact you.


2. Why was your package temporarily lost?
i have since left Toyomoto before the shipping of your kit, so
i had no recollection of it being sent to the wrong address(that
wouldn't have happened if i was there) or it being returned
for that matter, (I would have called you had i known)

3. Why doesn't anyone answer the phone?
Toyomoto is under-staffed at times, for whatever reason, lance
choses to run his shop this way, and choses not to expand.
So yes there will be times when neither staff nor he can
answer the phones.... Oh yea, and my leaving is probably
another good reason.

And finally, i can almost be 99.9% certain that you will have a grin from ear to ear the first time you drive your turboSC300 ...

Best Regards and good luck,

Dan

Hermosa

Ah yes. That's why I am having trouble waiting. Estimated arrival is next Friday so I can check through all the parts and compare to the instructions included. I just don't want to have the car apart and find out a few pieces need to be ordered and have to have my car on a stand for a week.

ToyLexmods

Hermosa,

Well, its just my opinion....but, anybody who says 6 440 injectors are well within the safe limits at 450rwhp...are just plain nuts. Can it be done? Sure, I think if you cranked up the base fuel pressure it could go. But, what will the injector duty be? Can anyone document this?

I find the claims about the 330 injectors making 425rwhp just as nuts. I have to resort to the fuel calcs and in the end you will have to do the same. Do some research on the Supra site...mkiv.com or supraforums.com and make your decision. In the end its your car and your engine. As I said...I pushed 440's to 360rwhp with no problems but would not go any higher. I dont like bumping the base fuel pressure too high nor maxing out duty cycles. Things tend to blow when you do.

Cheers,

Dave Hall

==============================================


Just so long as the kit that is sold as 450rwhp can safely and reliably produce the power that is advertised I have no problem. Any kit sold with a rating should naturally be easily tunable to that rating or the marketing should be redesigned. Any engineer would make this kit capable of producing at bare minimum 10% more power than advertised but tuned back for reliability based upon the hardware sold. When something is engineered so close to operating standards this would put up a red flag for anyone. If the fuel system is a bottleneck for 450 reliable rwhp then the kit should come with larger injectors. If someone is running at the claimed hp ratings of the car and it is so close to the limit what happens if the fuel system gets a little dirty and barely starts running lean. Will the engine blow? Sounds dangerous.

SC300T

So you're calling us all nuts? Its been done successfully many times before. Lance spec'd it out, he's got a lot of kits out there similarly equipped. I know of no people that have toasted cylinders as a result of inadequate fuel system using his suggestions. I know what you're talking about with your fuel injector calculators, I've run the numbers myself and can tell you that this system is atypical in that the BSFC numbers are off.

I can verify that the calculators are wrong for the 2JZ application. 330cc injectors at 100% duty cycle *shouldn't* be theoretically possible to produce 423rwhp.

If you plug in all the formulas according to commonly believed BSFC you will see that 330cc injectors won't get you there, even at 100% duty cycle. With that in mind, how can a car produce 423rwhp on 6 330cc injectors? Both 'Wiz and I have produced these numbers WITHOUT going lean. Admittedly, I use one 550cc injector on pump gas during my daily driving, and use both 550cc injectors when boosting higher on race gas (500rwhp approx). My dyno run at 423rwhp included a run that didn't use any additionals, just the 330cc injectors. And at that, you could smell raw fuel coming from the exhaust. It was VERY rich.

From this information, you have to conclude that either the BSFC is way off for the 2JZ engine (probably) and/or the injectors flow better than advertised (not likely based on Dave H's calculations).

I belive that the 2JZ simply does better than most with regards to BSFC and you must therefore adjust the calcuations to reflect this tendancy. The 2JZ seems to follow more in-line with the fuel appetite of a N/A engine according to the calculators.

If you re-calculate based on 423rwhp 100% on 330cc injectors, you must also be able to figure that 440cc injectors will yield a somewhat high but acceptable duty cycle. BTW... The system was also dynoed with an MK3 turbo fuel pump with NO FPR in the fuel system.

ToyLexmods

Scott,

I fully respect that you have tested the limits of the 330 injectors. It was your call and your engine at risk. I know Dave Henry and have worked on fuel calcs and flow tests on several different pumps with him.

This is what I said....

"Well, its just my opinion....but, anybody who says 6 440 injectors are well within the safe limits at 450rwhp...are just plain nuts. "

I just say that I dont think this is well within safe limits. Whats to say someones car is running way too rich and the injector duty cycle hits max....then what? Dead engine. Scott, you can say your car survived 427rwhp on the 330 injectors...how many times? Is this run daily? Smelling fuel mean it was still running rich? Going against physics is one thing...saying its well within safe limits is another. I just dont want Hermosa thinking its ok and just installing this kit without precaution.

Cheers,

Dave Hall

==============================================

projectsc

Is there a long wait if you want them to install a turbo or have a GTE swap done?

SC300T

No, but as theory suggests, 423rwhp at 100% on 330cc injectors would equal 450rwhp on 440cc injectors with an acceptable 80% duty cycle.

And no, I've ran that 423rwhp on the dyno cautiously with 330cc injectors. Normally the 550cc aux (or two) would be running in addition for daily use.

I've since bought 750cc mains to eliminate any fuel delivery concerns up to 650-700rwhp and plan on using the two aux injectors to spray alchy / water.

As far as ending up with a blown engine, the 2JZ isn't exactly an RX-7, and can tolerate a degree of abuse. It took Chris Bergeman 7xxrhp at 17:1 A/F to melt his pistons, which is a huge amount of abuse by any measure.

IMO...
Advise to Hermosa should be to leave the wastegate spring alone and keep the boost where Lance wants it until he gets to know the car. Buy an air/fuel ratio gauge, an EGT gauge, a fuel pressure gauge, monitor the readings at a nominal amount of boost, then gradually dial up boost over a period of time. Buy some dyno time with a wideband sensor and correlate what the on-board EGT and A/F correspond to the calibrated UEGO on the dyno.