KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

This crazy idea just dawned on me this afternoon after considering whether or not to rebuild my virgin but used R154 transmission prior to moving again in a few months:

Since the Pontiac Solstice 2.0L Turbo engine uses the AR5 manual transmission, why couldn't we swap one of those with a manual ECU into our R154 swapped SC's? There is already an existing bellhousing that an R154 can use and clutch options are plentiful.

Emissions legality factors into this and as good and as loved as all JZ engines are, only the most expensive option in the USDM 2JZGTE will have a chance of passing an emission visual or BAR inspection in Cali. Those can be very expensive to piece together above and beyond an Aristo engine.

Yes, this is unorthodox and getting a USDM GTE ECU, EGR head and USDM stock twins might be easier but here are some benefits to the Solstice engine:

-64,000 Solstices were produced from 2005-2009. I don't know the number of turbo models from that figure but that's a lot of cars.
-Factory specs were 260hp and 260ft-lbs of torque
-DI for low down torque. 260ft-lb is available at 2,000rpm.
-50-state USDM Turbo engine
-Pontiac sold a dealer-installed emission legal ECU and sensor upgrade that gave the engines 290hp and 340lb-ft of torque. Beyond this, the tuning community loves these boosted engines.
-AR5 manual transmission is VERY similar to all R154's except for the tail housing and shifter. A bellhousing swap mates an MKIII or Soarer R154 to the GM 2.0L engine.
-Average cost for a complete junkyard engine is $3,000-$3,500. Compare that to the same cost for an Aristo 2JZGTE (in which case this argument is moot) or a *complete* USDM 2JZGTE (FAR more $$$).
-Assuming you're Cali BAR approved you would get an emission check with an OBD2 port + visual rather than on rollers since this would effectively make the car a "2005-2009 Solstice Turbo 5-speed" as far as the ARB is concerned.
-Gear ratio options are abundant to fine tune the smaller engine's power delivery against a 3400-3600lb SC chassis.
-Lastly, this engine's computer and fuel components may also fare better if the average available fuel is E15 in a few years. Yes, a JZ fuel system can be modified to handle this as well but it's a newer design from the factory and who wants to run anything other than E85 if they're converting their fuel system?

At the very least, this is an interesting alternative and wouldn't involve an entire drivetrain swap-- just the engine, wiring and fuel system.



I realize this is a crazy notion but what do you all think?


(Please note: I am NOT arguing that the GM 2.0L Turbo Ecotec is a better performance engine than an xJZ-GTE. It isn't, but it is a respectable one and there is a lot of support for it in the aftermarket. I'm not trying to **** anyone off. Just food for thought since on paper it looks like most of it will just bolt in with an R154 trans and the corresponding 2.0L bell housing)

INTIMAZY

iTrader: (5)

Solid idea. Although not quite a JZ, it's arguably one of the most solid 4cyl turbo motors money can buy (4G63 and 3S-GTE debatable) The cost is still fairly high compared to a JZ and really a huge downgrade in terms of power compared to a USDM compatible GTE harness conversion. The displacement is simply not there. I get the torque rating is beefy and on paper appears to be more than enough motivation for a 3500lb car that only came equipped with 210hp in the US, in drivability I doubt it would be. Drive a Solstice turbo and you'll see what I mean. The bottom end was not at all torquey especially on a car that much lighter than ours.

I would love to see it done but doubt anyone would yank a JZ out of their chassis for such a small motor.

Joey-E

iTrader: (1)

Blasphemy!

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Thanks, INTIMAZY! You do have a point regarding the displacement. A 3.0L inline six down to a 2.5L inline six is one thing but a 2.0L inline-four is another. The Solstice/Sky turbo cars weigh 2,877lbs. Assuming a 3450lb R154 SC without the heavy stock seats, that's nearly a 600lb increase. However, if you use the transverse Chevy HHR SS as a base of comparison at 3,321lbs, that's only a 130lb increase in curb weight. The Chevy still managed a stock 6.2sec 0-60 before applying the factory reflash. For kicks I looked up the Cadillac ATS 2.0L 6-speed manual curb weight earlier (similar output but totally different engine) and it's 3,400lbs with a similar 260ft-lbs of torque using VVT.

The feel would absolutely be different than a JZ inline-six but I think these engines have been designed for duty in heavier applications than the Pontiac, Saturn and Opel roadsters. You could possibly compare the strength to the 4G63T or 3SGTE but it lacks the heritage those engines have. I prefer the 3SGTE series personally.

GM still sells their ECU reflash and sensor kit for the Solstice GXP, Sky Redline, Cobalt SS and HHR SS. It's $600.

I can't argue that it isn't a step in a more limited direction (although you can make respectable power with these engines in the 500hp range) when comparing to the power potential a USDM 2JZGTE gives you (and the Toyota for Toyota compatible engineering under the hood) but there is little reason to bother going to such high expense if all you're looking for is 300hp or so stock and a max future bump to a mere 400hp unless you have strict emissions in your area.

I probably will still piece together a GTE swap but this engine has definitely got my attention as an alternative.

Joey, I make no argument to that, however with respect and because it's one of my motivating factors with this idea I think the way California legislates and regulates smog checks for cars is FAR more blasphemous and dare I say insipid in its own right. At the very least I think it's a cool curiosity that a strong turbo four-cylinder with decent power bolts right up to our cars with an R154 and a bellhousing change.

2jznosht

I drove the **** outta one of those. Fun car. Glad I don't live in cali

lookEVO

iTrader: (1)

I dont like it. It would feel gutless in a SC, no matter what.

marshall2j

Definitely a neat idea for sure

NixusSC

iTrader: (2)

Wouldn't mind reading through a build thread involving this

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

With respect lookEVO, even if that is 100% true it still couldn't be anywhere near as gutless as an NA 2JZ in an SC but I do agree with you in that the factory inline-six design is what the car was made for and is completely not limited by in terms of power potential.

The main draw of this to me is that it's a decent turbo engine that bolts up to one of the ideal transmissions for our cars and happens to have been US emission legal. The only other such *legal* swap engines that are common are the US 2JZGTE, 1UZ-FE Non & VVT-i and LSx V8's.

It's there if only for curiosity's sake at the very least.

lookEVO

iTrader: (1)

I could see that, I just dont care about a "legality" standpoint when it comes to cars/swaps. Never had to deal with it and never had it be a concern. I know guys around here with RB's in 240's and they pass emissions all day long.I went thru emissions in march with only the rear cat in my car and my big turbo sitting there all nice and pretty. They didnt say a word, and I passed with flying colors.

Plus, having been a mechanic for a long time... i dont put much faith in boosted 4 cyl domestics... especially that engine.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Personally I don't care about swap legality either when the tailpipe is what matters most. In Colorado I don't think strict visual legality would be an issue at all so I agree with you there but in my case I cannot get away from work in California. If it weren't for that I'd just use a BPU 1JZ VVTi for my goals and call it a day. You're describing the more sensible approach to an emissions check that most of the nation still adheres to.

I'm curious. What common issues have you seen with the LNF engines? At least the longitudinal ones used in the Kappa roadsters?

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

reminds me of that one very overbuilt 3sgte mk4 supra in a magazine I saw. as awesome as the concept was it was a general consensus of not enough power to move the supra around down low. an SC would naturally be worse.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Ali, I've read about that Supra and it was suited to little more than track duty but from what I can tell on paper this engine has a torque rating more in line with a 1JZ VVTi. The upgrade ceiling isn't anywhere near a JZ GTE but I do think the comparison at lower HP levels is interesting:

1JZ-GTE VVT-i -- 280 lb-ft at 2400rpm
3S-GTE (final w/CT20) -- 224 lb-ft at 4,000rpm
2JZ-GTE USDM -- 315 lb-ft at 3600rpm
LNF GXP/Redline -- 260 lb-ft at 2600rpm
LNF GXP/Redline w/GM reflash kit -- 340 lb-ft at 3600rpm.

I know that most of the 2JZGTE's torque is available as low as 1,800rpm and the LNF can't match that but the stockish numbers are interesting.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

yeah the numbers do look interesting a bit surprised it even gets the 260lb ft at 2600rpm, but even that is barely cutting it for our boats but the solstice is starting to sound like a pretty nice car for cali.. lol.
on another thought wouldn't the gm v8 swap be pretty easy to get bar'd.

99SC42

iTrader: (44)

Can't you do a USDM GTE swap in your SC and still passed Cali smog?