Moog ES3560 outer tie rod
02-10-16, 09:26 AM
#1
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Moog ES3560 outer tie rod
Anyone run into a problem with installing the moog outer tie rods (Part no. ES3560 and 3561)? I was in the process of replacing my outer tie rods on yesterday and had the RH removed with the intention of replacing with the MOOG ES3560. When I attempted to get the MOOG into the knuckle it would not fit -- it appears that the tie rod is slightly angled in the opposite direction from the OEM that I was replacing.
The reason I needed to replace the RH tie rod is I was hearing a very loud clunking sound (and kind of a slip/sliding feeling) when I turn the steering wheel to the left to make a left turn -- especially when backing up. so I removed the engine shroud and I could turn the RH tie rod very easily with my had plus the rubber boot on it is completely shot. The LH is not as bad but I know they should be replaced in pairs as there is a tendency for greater wear on the weaker side once the stress shifts upon replacing a single suspension side of the components.
I have not tried to install the LH tie rod since I could not get the RH tie rod replaced as I was hoping to replace both at the same time but from looking at it I think it may be the same problem. I was having a problem getting the LH locking nut off since I did not have a 19mm open wrench as was using a crescent wrench I did not want to go through the trouble of dealing with the LH until I knew for certain that I could replace the problematic tie rod.
Has anyone else run into this issue or am I just not doing something right here -- the MOOG will fit into the knuckle if I turn it upside down so that is weird. However, upside down doesn't actually work or at least I doubt that it would function properly even if I could get the castle nut on it upside down. Any advice or feedback will be greatly appreciated.
The reason I needed to replace the RH tie rod is I was hearing a very loud clunking sound (and kind of a slip/sliding feeling) when I turn the steering wheel to the left to make a left turn -- especially when backing up. so I removed the engine shroud and I could turn the RH tie rod very easily with my had plus the rubber boot on it is completely shot. The LH is not as bad but I know they should be replaced in pairs as there is a tendency for greater wear on the weaker side once the stress shifts upon replacing a single suspension side of the components.
I have not tried to install the LH tie rod since I could not get the RH tie rod replaced as I was hoping to replace both at the same time but from looking at it I think it may be the same problem. I was having a problem getting the LH locking nut off since I did not have a 19mm open wrench as was using a crescent wrench I did not want to go through the trouble of dealing with the LH until I knew for certain that I could replace the problematic tie rod.
Has anyone else run into this issue or am I just not doing something right here -- the MOOG will fit into the knuckle if I turn it upside down so that is weird. However, upside down doesn't actually work or at least I doubt that it would function properly even if I could get the castle nut on it upside down. Any advice or feedback will be greatly appreciated.
02-10-16, 03:18 PM
#2
Maybe they are marked incorrectly left side instead of R side? Does the new one matchup in design with the old one? I did mine a few years ago and used the MOOG brand as well but I do not recall the P/N. I had no issue when I installed them.
The clunking noise could also be your control arms ball joint or bushings, check them as well sine you have the wheel off. Good luck.
The clunking noise could also be your control arms ball joint or bushings, check them as well sine you have the wheel off. Good luck.
02-10-16, 11:56 PM
#3
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BigEZ,
I did look at the control arm bushings and the ball joint and they look ok considering I have nearly 200K miles. Also, I did match up the tie rods and as I mentioned the MOOG appears to be slightly off in the angle -- the piece that fits in the knuckle appears to be angled about 95 degrees instead of about 85 degrees if that makes sense to you. Thanks anyway for the information and I will look at the bushings again. The RH tie rod was very easily turned back-and-forth by hand and that boot was completely demolished so I know it needs to be replaced even if it is not the source of the clunking sound and wobbly feeling when driving.
I forgot to mention that at one point when making a hard left turn in a parking lot I heard a loud pop and the vehicle felt like it slipped or shifted to the right. That initially made me suspect the LCA bushings or the steering rack bushings. The steering rack and bushings seem to be in good shape although I think the LCA and UCA bushings could be replaced if the tie rods are not the solution. I have obtained steering bushings and UCA bushings just in case since I found a great price on them. Plus, I was under the impression the ball joints on the LCAs could not be replaced and I have seen pairs of UCAs for less than $120 with a 10 year warranty.
I figured at some point soon I should replace all the suspension bushings and struts considering the mileage. As well as possibly replacing the UCAs altogether.
I did look at the control arm bushings and the ball joint and they look ok considering I have nearly 200K miles. Also, I did match up the tie rods and as I mentioned the MOOG appears to be slightly off in the angle -- the piece that fits in the knuckle appears to be angled about 95 degrees instead of about 85 degrees if that makes sense to you. Thanks anyway for the information and I will look at the bushings again. The RH tie rod was very easily turned back-and-forth by hand and that boot was completely demolished so I know it needs to be replaced even if it is not the source of the clunking sound and wobbly feeling when driving.
I forgot to mention that at one point when making a hard left turn in a parking lot I heard a loud pop and the vehicle felt like it slipped or shifted to the right. That initially made me suspect the LCA bushings or the steering rack bushings. The steering rack and bushings seem to be in good shape although I think the LCA and UCA bushings could be replaced if the tie rods are not the solution. I have obtained steering bushings and UCA bushings just in case since I found a great price on them. Plus, I was under the impression the ball joints on the LCAs could not be replaced and I have seen pairs of UCAs for less than $120 with a 10 year warranty.
I figured at some point soon I should replace all the suspension bushings and struts considering the mileage. As well as possibly replacing the UCAs altogether.
02-12-16, 06:55 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
Another issue I am having is getting that ball joint out of the knuckle on the driver side. I have been whacking the heck out of that thing trying to get the LH (driver side) out after my issue with the passenger side (RH) and it will not come out. I even used a giant mall hammer but no luck.
Just like the passenger side I can see that the ball joint that goes into the knuckle is angled back slightly on this one too -- is that common or do I have some other underlying problem? I have been hitting the ball joint (with the castle nut inverted) so hard that I have jarred the brake rotor loose so I know I have been using more than enough force -- any other suggestions?
Just like the passenger side I can see that the ball joint that goes into the knuckle is angled back slightly on this one too -- is that common or do I have some other underlying problem? I have been hitting the ball joint (with the castle nut inverted) so hard that I have jarred the brake rotor loose so I know I have been using more than enough force -- any other suggestions?
02-12-16, 10:02 AM
#5
The ball joint is normally angled in towards the middle of the car. You might want to try a gear puller and hook it around the knuckle and press down on the castle nut.
Those LCA can be a pain to remove. I am about to tackle that same job this weekend, replacing both LCA and UCA with brand new Supra units, as well as the engine and tranny mounts.
Those LCA can be a pain to remove. I am about to tackle that same job this weekend, replacing both LCA and UCA with brand new Supra units, as well as the engine and tranny mounts.
02-12-16, 10:59 AM
#6
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BigEZ,
Thanks for that advice on the gear puller -- I will give that a try. Any suggestions on the best type of gear puller for this type of job? Also, do you think I could have somehow changed the angle of the knuckle with the mall hammer on the passenger side trying to get that tie rod out? If so I wonder if I have done the same to the driver side knuckle.
Since I was going to replace both tie rods I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to run into the same problem on the driver side with a tie rod that did not fit. As you described both of the OEM tie rods where the ball joint fits into the knuckle are angled towards the middle of the car just shy of 90 degrees or as I described at about a 85 degree angle. Both of the replacement tie rods are MOOG but they do not look like they are angled like the OEM tie rods.
Let me know how that LCA and UCA job goes -- I have that as the next project and I have new steering rack bushings that I want to install. I was hoping to update my entire suspension but this tie rod complication is extremely discouraging -- especially since it should have been an easy project to get done.
Thanks for that advice on the gear puller -- I will give that a try. Any suggestions on the best type of gear puller for this type of job? Also, do you think I could have somehow changed the angle of the knuckle with the mall hammer on the passenger side trying to get that tie rod out? If so I wonder if I have done the same to the driver side knuckle.
Since I was going to replace both tie rods I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to run into the same problem on the driver side with a tie rod that did not fit. As you described both of the OEM tie rods where the ball joint fits into the knuckle are angled towards the middle of the car just shy of 90 degrees or as I described at about a 85 degree angle. Both of the replacement tie rods are MOOG but they do not look like they are angled like the OEM tie rods.
Let me know how that LCA and UCA job goes -- I have that as the next project and I have new steering rack bushings that I want to install. I was hoping to update my entire suspension but this tie rod complication is extremely discouraging -- especially since it should have been an easy project to get done.
02-12-16, 07:12 PM
#7
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BigEZ,
I just remembered that I can rent a tie rod pulley from one of the auto parts stores. I have gotten so caught up in trying to do this a certain way that I forgot. Thinking about what you told me about the gear pulley finally turned on the lightbulb. Thank you again for your advice.
I just remembered that I can rent a tie rod pulley from one of the auto parts stores. I have gotten so caught up in trying to do this a certain way that I forgot. Thinking about what you told me about the gear pulley finally turned on the lightbulb. Thank you again for your advice.
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