silentkill

This may be covered but what compression would a GE block with GTE pistons/rods, GE head non-vvti?

Can i break in this engine non turbo or will it run like *** with the way less compression?

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

I want to say I chopped some off of the dump tube when I installed the wastegate but that was a long time ago and all the designs keep changing. It was still pointing relatively down and didn't cause any issues other than being loud.

Silentkill, maybe if you tell us what you are trying to achieve we can offer some recommendations. you didn't mention what headgasket.
I really don't have the time to run through every combination, that will all change depending on the headgasket choice also.

If you did that combo with a GE headgasket, you would have optimal squish and mid 9 compression level, but the GE headgasket is a single layer and some might argue it is more susceptible to lifting/warpage.
Now if you did that combo with a GTE headgasket, you would be getting pretty close to a stock gte compression level, with the better sealing multi layer gte headgasket.
only thing is due to the head design you will have a sub optimal squish, which isn't a big deal, but with the GTE headgasket and pistons you will be in the 8.5:1 stock gte compression territory.

So after you factor in most of the different ways to do it, installing the more desireable GTE mutli-layer gasket on a GE pistons/head gets you the low to mid 9's compression you need.
While squish isn't perfect on this setup, it hasn't been a problem for anyone yet and there have been tons of na-t setups pushing high power like this.

The only way to get that optimal squish back and keep the better GTE gasket, would be to swap on a GTE head on a GE block.
Also just to note there isn't any difference between the GE and the GTE block other than the piston and rods (and oil squirters + extra oil/coolant passeges drilled out).

silentkill

Thanks, i have a new OEM GTE head gasket to use. Power goal is 550-600 to start with a little wiggle room up top, maybe 750 someday?

welp guess i should have looked more into it before purchasing a TT HG. Any recommendations on what HG i should get for proper squish?

Update as well: my block was decked .006, now i'm really confused how to figure out the math here

update: if i did my math right my squish is .079?

After some light digging i think i would need to run a 1.0MM headgasket to be in the acceptable squish zones, at .056 with my block being decked .006?

silentkill

This is so far the closest thing i can find to get to 0.065 squish
https://www.jegs.com/i/Cometic-Gaske...6-036/10002/-1

compressed thickness of .036
my deck to piston? -.001
.030 GE head volume
== 0.065?

Ope just kidding i found it.
https://www.cometic.com/i-24766627-t...Bhead%2Bgasket

Let me know if my math makes sense here before i buy another wrong gasket lol
Compressed: .027
Deck to piston -.001
.030 GE head
== .056" squish?

What would my compression be with the above gasket i found? Can this gasket handle 600-800?

did some more math, not sure if im super spot on since i dont know what the deck volume is with my deck to piston distance gone.

55.5cc + 4.076cc + 6.7cc = 66.276‬


66.276‬+505.384/66.276=8.62:1 using the .027 gasket above.

Polarisman

My wastegate is recircd, that's why it was such a nightmare. It would have been loads easier to run the external dump, positioning was fine and I would have only had to relocate the drain tube. If this won't all play nice the way it is, I may just patch the dp and do that, but I do much prefer the sound with it recirculated, so I'm trying this first.

FWIW, the non vvti GE rods are the same as GTE, I believe, or at least similar enough to not bother upgrading. Vvti are pretty weak though.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

Maybe I gave too much explanation there but what I was getting at mainly is that you should use the stock gte gasket with whatever combo you are going to run.
What engine do you currently have? Im guessing its a ge block with gte pistons that was decked? that thing must have been overheated pretty good then, these are zero deck blocks factory.

If you have a stock 2jzge block w/ 2jzge pistons that was decked, you are in good shape to slap on the GTE headgasket and turn the boost up for those power goals.
decking the block will help with the squish, but the squish isn't that important on this engine (until you get into a more ridiculous range with lets say a 2.5mm headgasket).

If you already have GTE pistons in your block, then still run the GTE headgasket and you will have lower compression so you will have to run more boost to make the same power, but it will be safer just like a stock gte compression wise.
You could just run the GE gasket with gte pistons and be at the right squish and compression, but as I said the GE gasket is not known to be as reliable as the multi layer gte one.
I have talked about this with others and there is no real consensus as to how strong the ge headgasket really is, so the advice would be to err on the side of caution and use the mutli layer gte gasket.

Oh wow, yeah its much harder to recirculate but it will keep the engine bay cleaner and sound better, not to mention the smells you get in the a/c if you don't have recirculate on lol.
non vvti GE rods are the same rods as GTE rods. the only differences are the pistons, gte has a deeper dish and slightly different piston ring setup.

silentkill

I'm on a 97 GE block with GTE pistons/rods, decked .006. 97 GE head. I currently have a new GTE head gasket.

I could also just have the head decked 0.019 and be at .060 squish haha

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

You could do that if you feel like it and want to bring the compression back up, but the squish with the gte gasket isn't really an issue in real life so it's your call really.
With the block being decked I would be careful though about interference if you are decking the head too.
also .006 sounds odd to take off the deck as usually machine shops will go to .01 or something like that. I would verify if you are cutting it close if you want to do the head also.

How did you end up with decking a block and putting gte pistons in it, yet you have a stock GE head? Usually the head warps a bunch before you mess up the block.
If you decked a 2jz block that wasn't bad, then you probably need to get advice from a different machine shop, or at least get the head checked out also.

silentkill

I bought a spare GE engine that was machined and had GTE pistons installed, oil pan has a AN drain welded on, and it came with headstuds.. I plan on using my 100k GE head off my car when i take it apart. Maybe i should just take what i want off of it and sell the shortblock and make my life easier? My GE has 100k miles as of yesterday and runs mint.

Story with the spare engine is it came out of a 70k tboned SC300, was tanked, honed and decked .006. The guy had a GTE head on it before i bought it and took it off to sell.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

I'm glad I asked then, cause if you have a low miles ge engine in the car and it's running mint I would 100% use that engine with a gte headgasket and arp headstuds. It's a proven setup and no guesswork. You get a nice comoression bump, work the turbo less and can still hit those power goals.

Really that 2jzge block with the gte Pistons would be better suited for a gte head, as a replacement for a gte block. I'd guess they blew their gte block and needed a replacement so they swapped their old head over with gte Pistons on a ge block. That setup would have a gte factory compression and squish. If you use this with your ge head, you just loose some squish but still factory gte compression. You would also want to use a ge oil pump.

The squish doesn't really matter a whole lot on the above setups, it's still good enough to not be an issue at those power levels. So choose by compression you want.

Really the ones that end up with gte Pistons often are usually is300 vvti blocks with the weaker rods and Pistons, or when replacing gte blocks if you want to keep factory compression.

One of the fun parts of Nat and non vvti is the compression bump you get, so I would choose that personally.

Polarisman

Another quick question...where I'm only looking for ~400whp on stock ge compression, internals, w58 trans, etc...what timing should I be running? It started and ran like an absolute champ before I threw the jumper in and set the base timing to 6°. Now warm starts are challenging and it idles very low, seemingly around 800rpm. I'm worried about hard starts and stalling when hot, especially with running the DM power steering line and eliminating the idle bump-up valve from the PS loop. Once I have the timing nailed down, should I be resetting the tps? Or flashing the ecu to learn again? In what order?

I am running 93 octane fuel, but will occasionally only be able to get 91 and don't want to create any issues with detonation at 8 degrees of base timing vs the 6 I am running now.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

I found 6 to be a little low. I would try right at 8 degrees and see if that helps some. you should be alright as long as the mixtures in boost stay rich

Polarisman

Sounds good to me. I was just worried about detonation...I know a richer mixture will help with that to some degree but once you're out of octane you're out of octane and I didn't know if the factory knock sensor helps compensate for that or if it's out of the picture after the swap. Once it's set at 8, should I attempt a fresh recalibration of the TPS, or is it OK since it's allowing me to set the timing? Should I flash the ECU after all this?

I really hope the coolant I have passing through the exhaust doesn't hurt anything. There must be some trapped in the runners for the exhaust manifold and it's just taking forever to get out (some got in the combustion chamber from the plug wells when changing the plugs, since the TB coolant lines were left uncapped by some dummy and heat expansion forced it out)...I really don't want to pull the turbo, wastegate, or manifold to deal with it and I know I probably shouldn't be revving the car or getting it into boost til it's done burning off since it has to pass through the hot side of the turbo on its way out. As it is now I'm just starting the car and letting it idle for a while every day. The coupler is coming in today to close the intake system loop, so the first drive is only a few days away!

silentkill

Thanks that answers my plan then haha. Ill steal the ARP head studs and oil pan from the "built" engine to use on my engine. Really appreciate the wisdom here.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

Generally the gte ecu will drop timing a bunch in boost and it is conservative, so much that you can raise the boost on a gte and not worry too much.
With na-t and even with 10:1 compression, the timing is probably fine still in boost up to a certain point like a bar of boost or so.
You will have less wiggle room with high compression and boost which makes watching the AFR more important, the timing should still be relatively conservative.

As for adjusting the base timing 6-10 degrees, that is actually more in regards to the gte timing map being more aggressive out of boost due to the lower compression.
It will add in more timing down low to make up for the lack of compression, and with the lower compression you won't get knock.

So if you run that more aggressive timing on a 10:1 na-t out of boost and pickup knock, the ecu will start to dial back the timing all around which is what you want to avoid.
You want to have the base timing where out of boost, the motor is running happy without any knock. In my experience with the higher compression that tends to be around 8, or can even be 10 still on a dialed in setup.
With the gte headgasket I was running 8 then I went back to 10. IF the engine has a stronger idle, and is not hiccuping or running weird at times, you are probably good there.

I think 6 is a little low, and probably not necessary but not everyones motors are in great shape etc.. and a lot of factors.
Sounds like your motor is happier with a little more timing, so your octane must be good enough. I would try it at 8 for a while and see how it goes.
I would probably avoid full 10 degrees until you do the gte headgasket, but 6 degrees is rather low generally speaking.

Also the gte ecu is very quick to respond to knock, and yes it does work in and out of boost. But the idea is to not get knock in the first place, cause it won't always save you.
In the case where you try and run more than the engine likes out of boost, it will pull back timing all around and then it will feel slower at that number, vs the spot where the engine is happy and not knocking.

You shouldn't have to mess with the tps again generally speaking, just reset the ecu. pull the negative battery terminal for a minute or the efi fus in the fusebox, both will do the trick.

Yeah before you get on it too much and really get things hot, let everything burn off and keep an eye on it.
I would even say at first keep a fire extinguisher handy, especially if you wrapped anything and it gets covered in oil etc.. it can cause a lot of smoke and/or flames.
I generally don't wrap manifolds for that very reason, in my experience they get oil on them sooner or later and get crispy etc... go with a coating if you want that sort of heat protection.
A turbo blanket is pretty safe and I like to run them, but you will want to keep any oil off of that one too.

No problem, I think that would be a better setup in the end, and there are probably lots of vvti guys who would be interested in buying that short block.

I am of the old school variety on 2jz's where I think Toyota did such a good assembly job, it doesn't make sense to build one if you can find one untouched in good condition.
So if you have a good running low mileage non vvti 2jzge, its kind of hard to beat that as a starting point. especially if its already in your car