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That isn't TDC, you are probably looking at the other mark on the crank pulley, there is a white and a yellow one and you want the white one if I remember right.
That other mark is used as an assembly position where none of the pistons are at TDC. the manual will reference this position, but since 2jz isn't interference you can just assemble at TDC.
As long as you have TDC marked on the crank pulley correctly (verify before putting the head back on) all you have to do is line up the crank with TDC and the cams at 12 and you are good to go.
Was the engine running ok like that? seems like the timing would have been quite off. your piston tops look black like nothing was combusting properly (timing was retarded I am guessing).
I would guess someone did the timing belt job looking at the manual and confused TDC with the assembly position, which is not hard to do.
Once you get TDC sorted and set to 0, get the head back on and the cam marks pointing at 12 oclock, verify the distributor rotor is pointing to cylinder number 1.
If it is pointing to 6, then take the distributor out and re align and inset it. The ecu gets the signals from the distributor and it has 2 cam signals, one at TDC 1 and another at TDC 6.
On a gte these would be picked up automatically, but with a distributor you have to verify if you have the timing out, so I am mentioning it cause there is a chance you might end up 180 out since its not at TDC right now.
TDC should look pretty close to this, the pistons should be almost flat with the deck or basically flat. I might be a hair before TDC in this picture but its pretty close.
So first throw the crank pulley back on with the head off like this, and turn it until the number 1 piston is at the top and see which mark lines up, should be the white one.
You might have to turn crank twice before that happens, and remember to only turn it clockwise.
After you got that verified then do the head installation and then the distributor installation mentioned above.
Thank you SO much this is exactly the information i needed. I was so confused why there are two markings. I might shoot a picture over to this thread when i get the head/belt on before i pull the tensioner just to over-validate. This is my first timing belt/dohc engine build haha. I've done many many V8's so this is new to me. Appreciate all the kind help i'm getting.
Engine ran perfectly as far as i could tell.. My friends IS300 would pull away on me a little bit when we would race so i think the power was there. I could have also just got TDC wrong because i'm dumb. Do you think its possible for the cam gears to line up with that assembly mark at the 0 mark?
I have not touched the distributor yet, it's still in the head, i'll pull the cap off later and see what cyl i'm pointing at when i took it apart, that should answer your inquiry?
Here's some better pictures of how i had taken it apart. The cam gears were at 12 oclock before removal.
All of the pins on the MAP side connector are seated properly and everything...I'm just wondering if buying an eBay pigtail harness they were using similar but not same female pins that may have slightly bigger tolerancing (or just wider openings to begin with). Either way, since I put the dilectric grease in them I haven't had a problem, but I will probably pull the pins out of the connector in the off season or if it creates an issue again, and pinch them closed a bit more to improve the connection.
The plugs I have are BKR 7 EIX, based on your recommendation earlier on in the build process. I just didn't gap them down at all from where they are now, I was figuring the lower boost I wouldn't have issues with blowout but it makes sense that I would since the S366 moves a lot of air even at those lower boost levels.
I have a turbosmart MBC, the only adjustments I have are the boost pressure (and if it is the same as the older one I had before, there is a "gate pressure" spring and ball bearing in there...IIRC if you remove it you will have slightly slower spool but it won't spike and level out as they typically do, it will just come up to your boost level. I'm debating doing this mod to the MBC, then upping the boost slightly. Should keep the trans and head gasket happy without a 14-15psi boost spike, and probably come on a bit quicker than it is now because of the ECU stuff you mentioned.
I'm a bit weary of upping the boost at all though...Any idea what the stock clutch is capable of holding for torque before it starts to slip? Only asking because I do have a centerforce clutch in there, but where it was installed by the previous owner, I have no idea what compound or "stage" clutch it is...I'm just treating it like a stock clutch in terms of holding capability, etc.
If it seems like I can get away with 13-14psi on 91-93 octane pump gas at 8 degrees base timing on that turbo, let me know. You have way more experience then I have with various setup's results. I'm assuming with the higher boost it will lessen the spark blowout since the AFR will be leaner, but I'm not sure. What I was seeing was around 11.1:1 and I typically use 11.5-11.8:1 as a safe limit. I just don't know if turning it up to lean out to that point is smart, as I don't know where detonation becomes an issue on stock compression and 8 degrees timing.
Thanks for the insight. Doing an oil change today, and hopefully driving it to work for the first time tomorrow for commuter duty. We'll see.
Matt
Oh right stock compression, keep it at the 12 but have the manual boost controller in the loop if possible. you want the spring and ball bearing in there, that is what will keep the gate all the way closed until the set psi, otherwise it will creep.
That is a pretty solid AFR and with the compression and everything, I would leave it at 12 and you should be fine for the occasional spike to 14 before it settles, I wouldn't move it to 14 psi just yet then.
If you have the BKR7EIX, you are good for the most part but you may need to gap them down a little bit if the misses are bothering you. if its only very slight it is probably ok, it won't hurt anything but you are missing out on some power.
I blew my stock type clutch on the second day I was boosted, but it was a bit older so your experience may vary. If it was a stock type clutch, at 12 psi it wont last very long, you may get less than a dozen 3rd or4th gear pulls or so before it starts to slip, but if it was a stage 2 or 3 it may last longer hard to say. I would be prepared to upgrade either way, but when mine went out I could still drive around fine, but any amount of boost in 3rd or 4th and it would slip immediately making it not very fun to drive.
Originally Posted by silentkill
Thank you SO much this is exactly the information i needed. I was so confused why there are two markings. I might shoot a picture over to this thread when i get the head/belt on before i pull the tensioner just to over-validate. This is my first timing belt/dohc engine build haha. I've done many many V8's so this is new to me. Appreciate all the kind help i'm getting.
Engine ran perfectly as far as i could tell.. My friends IS300 would pull away on me a little bit when we would race so i think the power was there. I could have also just got TDC wrong because i'm dumb. Do you think its possible for the cam gears to line up with that assembly mark at the 0 mark?
I have not touched the distributor yet, it's still in the head, i'll pull the cap off later and see what cyl i'm pointing at when i took it apart, that should answer your inquiry?
Here's some better pictures of how i had taken it apart. The cam gears were at 12 oclock before removal.
Yeah the yellow line is the wrong line 100%, you need to have that white line with the groove in it lining up with the 0 mark on the cover.
I am not 100% but I am pretty sure it is impossible to get the cams pointing at 12 oclock with the yellow line on zero but I haven't tried and I don't have my belt on my engine to test it out.
It seems like the last person to install the timing belt thought the yellow mark was the TDC mark, which it is not.
Did the engine sound a little louder than usual, it seems like the cam timing would be way off, causing it to have that boat sort of deep bass sound.
I bet that's why it left all that carbon on the pistons too.
It is not a big deal though and good thing you caught it before you put it back the way it was.
First clean the piston tops, all that carbon is not good and can cause detonation if you get enough buildup later, it also increases the compression ratio (takes up volume).
Then, turn the crank over until the white line is lined up with zero, if you miss it go all the way around do not turn it counter clockwise.
Then you are good to install the cylinder head, and then do the timing belt with the cams lined up to 12 oclock.
At this point you will need to remove and reinstall the distributor at the end once everything is done, its really easy so don't worry about that till the end.
I would remove the distributor from the head though before trying to reinstall the head or the cam shaft.
I think what also messes alot of people up trying to install the timing belt is that the crank pulley is usually off when you install the timing belt, and on the oil pump there is a dot that lines up to the crank gear thing that holds the timing belt.
If you line these up, I want to say it is actually not the TDC position but the yellow service position and you have to do it in a certain order that ends up with the belt in the right spot, but if you just assume that is TDC you get the wrong yellow mark.. its hard to explain but itll make sense once you see it a few times.
At the end of the day, once the tensioner is out and everything is done, the white line must line up with 0 and the cam marks pointing at 12 oclock to the timing cover.
If anything other than that happens you need to pop out the tensioner and try again. You can even correct this without the head off, with slack in the belt turn everything to the correct position and re install the tensioner.
helpful tip, all the slack in the belt should be on the tensioner/passenger side, as in when lining it up put the belt on the crank, the drivers side cam, then the passenger side cam, so when you turn it clockwise they will still line up after a full turn.
Oh right stock compression, keep it at the 12 but have the manual boost controller in the loop if possible. you want the spring and ball bearing in there, that is what will keep the gate all the way closed until the set psi, otherwise it will creep.
That is a pretty solid AFR and with the compression and everything, I would leave it at 12 and you should be fine for the occasional spike to 14 before it settles, I wouldn't move it to 14 psi just yet then.
If you have the BKR7EIX, you are good for the most part but you may need to gap them down a little bit if the misses are bothering you. if its only very slight it is probably ok, it won't hurt anything but you are missing out on some power.
I blew my stock type clutch on the second day I was boosted, but it was a bit older so your experience may vary. If it was a stock type clutch, at 12 psi it wont last very long, you may get less than a dozen 3rd or4th gear pulls or so before it starts to slip, but if it was a stage 2 or 3 it may last longer hard to say. I would be prepared to upgrade either way, but when mine went out I could still drive around fine, but any amount of boost in 3rd or 4th and it would slip immediately making it not very fun to drive.
Yeah the yellow line is the wrong line 100%, you need to have that white line with the groove in it lining up with the 0 mark on the cover.
I am not 100% but I am pretty sure it is impossible to get the cams pointing at 12 oclock with the yellow line on zero but I haven't tried and I don't have my belt on my engine to test it out.
It seems like the last person to install the timing belt thought the yellow mark was the TDC mark, which it is not.
Did the engine sound a little louder than usual, it seems like the cam timing would be way off, causing it to have that boat sort of deep bass sound.
I bet that's why it left all that carbon on the pistons too.
It is not a big deal though and good thing you caught it before you put it back the way it was.
First clean the piston tops, all that carbon is not good and can cause detonation if you get enough buildup later, it also increases the compression ratio (takes up volume).
Then, turn the crank over until the white line is lined up with zero, if you miss it go all the way around do not turn it counter clockwise.
Then you are good to install the cylinder head, and then do the timing belt with the cams lined up to 12 oclock.
I think what also messes alot of people up trying to install the timing belt is that the crank pulley is usually off when you install the timing belt, and on the oil pump there is a dot that lines up to the crank gear thing that holds the timing belt.
If you line these up, its actually not the TDC position but the yellow service position and you have to do it in a certain order that ends up with the belt in the right spot, but if you just assume that is TDC you get the wrong yellow mark.. its hard to explain but itll make sense once you see it a few times.
At the end of the day, once the tensioner is out and everything is done, the white line must line up with 0 and the cam marks pointing at 12 oclock to the timing cover.
If anything other than that happens you need to pop out the tensioner and try again. You can even correct this without the head off, with slack in the belt turn everything to the correct position and re install the tensioner.
helpful tip, all the slack in the belt should be on the tensioner/passenger side, as in when lining it up put the belt on the crank, the drivers side cam, then the passenger side cam, so when you turn it clockwise they will still line up after a full turn.
Do you have any suggestions how i can clean the pistons safely? Is my deck clean enough i went through with a razor and took off all the gasket material.
Just to clarify for my own sanity, the "white" mark is the one to the left of 0 on my pulley that has a groove in it.
Engine was only loud if it was cold, otherwise it was butter smooth and quiet once warm.
I have a video of it revving here with a manzo axle back:
I feel like if my clutch was slipping I would be happy right now, because that would mean the damn thing was running properly. I am pissed beyond words right now (but I'll vent anyway).
After 4 days of various successful, uninterrupted cold starts including 2 5 mile drives and a 10+ mile shakedown run, the car is back to its old behavior. Apparently me voicing any degree of confidence in this build, or looking forward to enjoying it is the trigger, since no other changes make repeatable results.
My local 2j guy agrees with my assessment that its likely ECU or MAP sensor, and like me, is leaning more toward ECU because of its randomness. I tightened up my map sensor pins and applied more dielectric grease on the sockets but no avail. I pulled the ECU again and took a closer look again...bringing it with me to work tomorrow to look at it under the microscope and see if the obvious hits the ecu took at one time or another (case is all dented to hell) created any fractured solder joints or any thing. Even with the more in depth second glance, still no cap leakage I can see.
I didn't grab a picture yet but i used brake clean and a scotch brite as i researched online and gt the pistons very clean. Also the next white mark lines #1 and #6 at the top of the bores so i guess i'm where i need to be now!
I feel like if my clutch was slipping I would be happy right now, because that would mean the damn thing was running properly. I am pissed beyond words right now (but I'll vent anyway).
After 4 days of various successful, uninterrupted cold starts including 2 5 mile drives and a 10+ mile shakedown run, the car is back to its old behavior. Apparently me voicing any degree of confidence in this build, or looking forward to enjoying it is the trigger, since no other changes make repeatable results.
My local 2j guy agrees with my assessment that its likely ECU or MAP sensor, and like me, is leaning more toward ECU because of its randomness. I tightened up my map sensor pins and applied more dielectric grease on the sockets but no avail. I pulled the ECU again and took a closer look again...bringing it with me to work tomorrow to look at it under the microscope and see if the obvious hits the ecu took at one time or another (case is all dented to hell) created any fractured solder joints or any thing. Even with the more in depth second glance, still no cap leakage I can see.
Suggestions are welcome.
If the case is all banged up I would suspect that as the problem is intermittent. generally the map sensor will work or it wont work, unless the pins are really loose in the sockets it should make contact well enough once they are plugged in together.
I am guessing messing with the tps doesn't help when its doing that. short of baking the ecu in the oven to fix any bad solder joints (like fixing an old xbox lol), you may want to find a backup ecu.
Originally Posted by silentkill
Do you have any suggestions how i can clean the pistons safely? Is my deck clean enough i went through with a razor and took off all the gasket material.
Just to clarify for my own sanity, the "white" mark is the one to the left of 0 on my pulley that has a groove in it.
Engine was only loud if it was cold, otherwise it was butter smooth and quiet once warm.
I have a video of it revving here with a manzo axle back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBCLVnG8byU
Originally Posted by silentkill
I didn't grab a picture yet but i used brake clean and a scotch brite as i researched online and gt the pistons very clean. Also the next white mark lines #1 and #6 at the top of the bores so i guess i'm where i need to be now!
Yeah sounds like you got it right, yes its the white line that is to the left in that picture. there are only 2 marks and only one of them will have 1 and 6 at the very top of the bore so you found it. Mark it brighter with some whiteout or something.
yeah really anything on the pistons, just dont scratch the cylinder walls. scotchbrite works well and a little brake cleaner. once you got it all clean rub some oil down the wall bores so it doesn't scratch from lack of lubrication after cleaning.
The deck looks generally clean enough but you want it very clean, make sure that with brake cleaner and a cloth its not leaving any more smudge marks. get it to where its super clean.
If you can feel anything with your fingernail, then its probably not clean enough. it doesn't take too much though so don't scratch it up trying to get all the dark spots off, some will stay behind but if it passes the finger nail test its ok.
Sounds like its running pretty well but it also sounds kind of deep to me. can't say for sure cause I didn't disassemble it but lets get it back together the right way and if it was wrong you should notice a nice pick up in power even without the turbo.
If the case is all banged up I would suspect that as the problem is intermittent. generally the map sensor will work or it wont work, unless the pins are really loose in the sockets it should make contact well enough once they are plugged in together.
I am guessing messing with the tps doesn't help when its doing that. short of baking the ecu in the oven to fix any bad solder joints (like fixing an old xbox lol), you may want to find a backup ecu.
Yeah sounds like you got it right, yes its the white line that is to the left in that picture. there are only 2 marks and only one of them will have 1 and 6 at the very top of the bore so you found it. Mark it brighter with some whiteout or something.
yeah really anything on the pistons, just dont scratch the cylinder walls. scotchbrite works well and a little brake cleaner. once you got it all clean rub some oil down the wall bores so it doesn't scratch from lack of lubrication after cleaning.
The deck looks generally clean enough but you want it very clean, make sure that with brake cleaner and a cloth its not leaving any more smudge marks. get it to where its super clean.
If you can feel anything with your fingernail, then its probably not clean enough. it doesn't take too much though so don't scratch it up trying to get all the dark spots off, some will stay behind but if it passes the finger nail test its ok.
Sounds like its running pretty well but it also sounds kind of deep to me. can't say for sure cause I didn't disassemble it but lets get it back together the right way and if it was wrong you should notice a nice pick up in power even without the turbo.
Thanks Ali! Head is going on tomorrow probably, then pan swap, and back into the car for turbo stuff!
I read for ARP stud install on one video that ARP told the guy to back the studs from bottomed out 1/8 turn, any truth to this? The ARP instruction sheet just says "HAND TIGHT" and three increments of torquing up to a final number of 80 ft lbs.
Sure there are lots of ways to do it correctly but I have followed the hand tight instructions. probably for if it tightens up a little when torquing but if just hand tight there should be allowance/space for that already.
The more important thing is the washers, if you have your oem bolts still with the factory washers, alot of people say its better to resuse those washers as they are larger diameter than the ARP ones.
You can use the ARP washers, but after repeated use and torquing it may leave an indent on the head and once that area becomes indented it makes the ARP studs very difficult to remove (I had this happen not too long ago).
So either reuse the stock washers if you have them with the ARP studs, or if you don't have the stock washers just use the ARP washers and remember not to go crazy with the torque wrench, stop at the recommended torque and keep an eye on it every time you remove the head.
Sure there are lots of ways to do it correctly but I have followed the hand tight instructions. probably for if it tightens up a little when torquing but if just hand tight there should be allowance/space for that already.
The more important thing is the washers, if you have your oem bolts still with the factory washers, alot of people say its better to resuse those washers as they are larger diameter than the ARP ones.
You can use the ARP washers, but after repeated use and torquing it may leave an indent on the head and once that area becomes indented it makes the ARP studs very difficult to remove (I had this happen not too long ago).
So either reuse the stock washers if you have them with the ARP studs, or if you don't have the stock washers just use the ARP washers and remember not to go crazy with the torque wrench, stop at the recommended torque and keep an eye on it every time you remove the head.
Yep okay all of that was my plan! thanks for solidifying it.
I'm doing Wasted spark VVTI coils and i'm confused how i can properly splice 3 wires together for the + on the coils, the last one can be terminated at the last coil so really its two splices on a single cable? Any ideas for how people do this for VVTI coils?
Do I need the valley cover from a vvti to bolt them to the head?
Can i just pull the B+ wire from the ignitor and run that up to the 3 coils and ignore the rest of the wires there?
I'm not going to run an ignitor since my ECUMaster Black Emu can manage that portion of it.
Good news (kind of)...I decided to bring my ecu to work and inspect it under a well lit microscope. Turns out a few caps near the hc322 DC converter were leaking and likely bridging the leads on that. I ran the whole thing through our di water wash station and cleaned that all off. No corrosion yet, no ruined traces etc. Blew it dry and lo and behold the car fired right up. We had a few of the caps in inventory at work but not all so my buddy is prepping everything this weekend and I should be able to put it in Monday. If it works I'll bring it back and re conformal coat any stripped areas. Then it should be good to go. Finally have a definitive cause so I'm psyched. Thanks for all the help so far!
In terms of running vvti coils, most of us have to leave b+ where it is on the igniter, strip the insulation off the middle of that wire, wrap and solder a wire to that, and wire it in series to the 3 pigtail harnesses. Alternatively, you can run the power wire from the battery to an automotive relay with a fuse in line, and tap into b+ as a switched remote wire to trigger it when the key is on. In your case, with no igniter, it sounds like pulling that back through the harness is your best bet to get it to a convenient spot.
The coils, pigtails, plugs, plug wires, etc fit in there well enough to not need to bolt it down, but ultimately, the "right" way is the factory way. Since you're working on an engine stand, if it won't cost a ton, you can do it that way. I just have all mine shoved in there and it works well. Just make sure you're using wiring with jacket rated to withstand at least 250 degrees, more if its going anywhere near the hot side of the head or block. I always suggest using leaded solder as its easier to work with. Get a no clean flux pen like cw8400 from circuitworks as normal rosin based or water based flux residue eventually becomes corrosive over time when exposed to the elements.
Use melt wall heat shrink on all solder joints if available. If it isn't, they sell butt splice connectors that have melt wall cases to weatherproof everything. Use expando sleeve or split loom for abrasion resistance from vibration. If you don't have access to melt wall heat shrink, standard stuff does the job, but I would still put self amalogating tape or something to seal it after. I can't tell you the number of installs I have seen mucked up with ****-poor wiring practices. Twisting wires together and electrical taping them is not a viable solution. Sorry for the rant, but after having dealt with countless electrical issues on past cars stemming from half-assing the install on otherwise good quality stuff...You get the idea.
In terms of running vvti coils, most of us have to leave b+ where it is on the igniter, strip the insulation off the middle of that wire, wrap and solder a wire to that, and wire it in series to the 3 pigtail harnesses. Alternatively, you can run the power wire from the battery to an automotive relay with a fuse in line, and tap into b+ as a switched remote wire to trigger it when the key is on. In your case, with no igniter, it sounds like pulling that back through the harness is your best bet to get it to a convenient spot.
The coils, pigtails, plugs, plug wires, etc fit in there well enough to not need to bolt it down, but ultimately, the "right" way is the factory way. Since you're working on an engine stand, if it won't cost a ton, you can do it that way. I just have all mine shoved in there and it works well. Just make sure you're using wiring with jacket rated to withstand at least 250 degrees, more if its going anywhere near the hot side of the head or block. I always suggest using leaded solder as its easier to work with. Get a no clean flux pen like cw8400 from circuitworks as normal rosin based or water based flux residue eventually becomes corrosive over time when exposed to the elements.
Use melt wall heat shrink on all solder joints if available. If it isn't, they sell butt splice connectors that have melt wall cases to weatherproof everything. Use expando sleeve or split loom for abrasion resistance from vibration. If you don't have access to melt wall heat shrink, standard stuff does the job, but I would still put self amalogating tape or something to seal it after. I can't tell you the number of installs I have seen mucked up with ****-poor wiring practices. Twisting wires together and electrical taping them is not a viable solution. Sorry for the rant, but after having dealt with countless electrical issues on past cars stemming from half-assing the install on otherwise good quality stuff...You get the idea.
Thank you that pretty much answers what i was questioning!
Do you leave the middle valley plate off the engine to have the coils just hang out?
Lining up the cam gears is a little weird i noticed, I marked the tooth where the noon marks are, is this correct?
I also marked the balancer with new paint at TDC just so it doesn't get mixed up again.
Update: Got the belt on and tensioned, rolled it over a couple times and it seems to all line up, does it look right?
Great news. ECU performance after cap replacement appears to be flawless. I will do another cold start this evening for good measure, but tomorrow I will send it through the DI dishwasher again, dry it thoroughly with compressed air, bake it for a couple hours at low temp in the board oven to dry any residual moisture, then reapply conformal coat to the prepped areas. I wonder whether it's silicone or urethane based...I have access to both so I will try to find out and put the same stuff back on.
EDIT: After some research, I decided to use urethane based Humiseal 1A33 coating over Techspray's 2102-P silicone coating. Silicone goes on thicker and what was there from Toyota was very thin, almost unable to see to begin with. Humiseal provides OEMs with coatings, and urethane does a better job of preventing tin whiskers over time (solder joints get "fuzzy" and can bridge nearby joints over time, which conformal coating helps prevent). I will run it through the UV oven after applying with a brush to cure correctly.
06-26-19, 10:48 AM
