NA-T Questions?? Ask the Guru
07-24-19, 01:16 PM
#406
Advanced
It's always tough to plan for current and future setups at the same time. If you can and are 100% sure you will do the future setup, then just go ahead and over build it now.
if you don't you will be doing work twice, and if you do do it and you don't end up going e85 then you have done a bunch of work you didnt need to, as 1000cc 11mm injectors will drop into the stock fuel rail and work with the stock lines up to 500 on pump gas. you don't even have to remove the fuel damper if its working, but changing the fuel filter is not a bad idea.
if you don't you will be doing work twice, and if you do do it and you don't end up going e85 then you have done a bunch of work you didnt need to, as 1000cc 11mm injectors will drop into the stock fuel rail and work with the stock lines up to 500 on pump gas. you don't even have to remove the fuel damper if its working, but changing the fuel filter is not a bad idea.
07-24-19, 03:29 PM
#407
The GE fuel pressure regulator does the same thing as the gte one. it works and is already on your fuel rail, no need to replace it.
I ran 1000cc EV14 injectors on the stock fuel rail and lines, damper, fpr, etc.. all stock. only thing I changed was I dropped a walboro pump in the tank. didn't even do the 12v mod.
I was on the aem ems v1 at the time and it ran and idled great. I was probably around 400whp, but with those injectors I had room to do upgrades down the line in case I overhauled the whole system (sound familiar?).
I actually changed that setup to figure out the tt ecu mod and installed 440's and then 550's with a piggyback because the gte ecu all around worked better than the standalone and I was dailying my car at the time.
with the aem ems v1 I often could not get the car to start in cold weather, sometimes in any weather, and the idle would randomly need adjustments up or down as it never really stayed in one spot.
EMS's have gotten alot better now so it isn't as bad, but the stock fuel system is good for 500 easy with injectors and an upgraded pump whatever ecu you use.
you can purchase an expensive aftermarket FPR, rail, all the lines, plumb everything and it look shiny, but under 500ish hp on pump gas its completely unnecessary.
The best piece of advice I can give you is to decide on 1 setup, and just build that. Don't do a just for now and then later thing.
I have talked to dozens of people about this exact same thing, and majority of them over the years ended up completely redoing the setup and re-buying parts, and wasting all that labor time.
Take it for what its worth, but my advice is to wait until you can do the setup you really want, and if it is too ridiculous to do all at once maybe decide on an easier setup.
lets say you spend a grand or more on a fuel upgrade you wont actually need till your next setup, but while at 400hp on low boost you realize you have blown your clutch, grenaded your trans, and/or need brakes, suspension, rear lsd, LCAs, etc... it keeps going on and on.
That grand could have gone a long way to a transmission that can hold the power, or any of the other things that you need at any power level.
So if you are going to use that extra power right away its worth it, but if you aren't its not really worth it to do a hybrid inbetween build.
Not to mention you will have to pay for a full tune at the low power levels, and another tune every time you change the setup on a standalone.
Generally, a base map might get you down the street but not very well.
again for any others reading this I am only reiterating this because I have heard so many people with future e85 plans or this or that, but the thing is E85 is not something that is easy or to be taken lightly.
It is rather expensive and tricky to get a proper functioning E85 setup, there are lots of little things that you haven't even thought of until you try it or if you are lucky learn from others, surge tank and constantly clogging fuel filters for example as E85 cleans everything out. alot of people have learned to use a new fuel tank for better success. You will also want the special PFTE lines and fittings for those, and don't have any rubber lines in the system.
while a flex fuel sensor is optional, a fuel pressure sensor is not due to the nature of E85 clogging up stuff and you don't want to go lean and loose the motor then if the pressure dips.
Also you are generally limited by where you can get E85, the quality of the blend, and in winter and summer there are different blends.
I hope I am sort of talking you out of E85 at 600hp, because it is sort of a ground where you can still get 500 with pump gas, and honestly, all that extra work I have mentioned and a whole bunch I skipped over that you will need to learn is not worth 100 or even 200hp more.
I personally wouldn't even think about going through all that trouble for less than 7-800hp+ and then you wouldn't be asking questions in this thread, you would be talking to a reputable builder and/or tuner who hopefully knows enough to keep your engine spinning in one piece.
Where is Gerrb at? Gerrb come and give them some E85 knowledge. And tell them how much fun a dialed in pump gas setup is at 500hp with all the supporting mods like lsd, suspension, and the right transmission and gear ratios.
All you really need to do for a good pump gas na-t setup is get the drop in 440 injectors and an upgraded fuel pump. And do the tt ecu mod. that will get you 400whp.
use 550s and a piggyback and you can get to 500whp. above that you want to look into a standalone and other fuel etc.. you will start to get close to the limits of the stock fuel system and pump gas.
the difference between an easy pump gas setup on a stock gte ecu and a e85 standalone setup is night and day, and several thousand dollars at least.. could be alot more once you start adding it up.
Like the adapter thing above, its not common to go from a stock 7/16" hard line to a big fuel rail with AN fittings... when you need the bigger fuel rail etc.. you run new AN lines from the tank generally speaking, I would only really use that to use the old feed line as a return line but even then you could just run another line.
Ok, my E85 rant is over now
I ran 1000cc EV14 injectors on the stock fuel rail and lines, damper, fpr, etc.. all stock. only thing I changed was I dropped a walboro pump in the tank. didn't even do the 12v mod.
I was on the aem ems v1 at the time and it ran and idled great. I was probably around 400whp, but with those injectors I had room to do upgrades down the line in case I overhauled the whole system (sound familiar?).
I actually changed that setup to figure out the tt ecu mod and installed 440's and then 550's with a piggyback because the gte ecu all around worked better than the standalone and I was dailying my car at the time.
with the aem ems v1 I often could not get the car to start in cold weather, sometimes in any weather, and the idle would randomly need adjustments up or down as it never really stayed in one spot.
EMS's have gotten alot better now so it isn't as bad, but the stock fuel system is good for 500 easy with injectors and an upgraded pump whatever ecu you use.
you can purchase an expensive aftermarket FPR, rail, all the lines, plumb everything and it look shiny, but under 500ish hp on pump gas its completely unnecessary.
The best piece of advice I can give you is to decide on 1 setup, and just build that. Don't do a just for now and then later thing.
I have talked to dozens of people about this exact same thing, and majority of them over the years ended up completely redoing the setup and re-buying parts, and wasting all that labor time.
Take it for what its worth, but my advice is to wait until you can do the setup you really want, and if it is too ridiculous to do all at once maybe decide on an easier setup.
lets say you spend a grand or more on a fuel upgrade you wont actually need till your next setup, but while at 400hp on low boost you realize you have blown your clutch, grenaded your trans, and/or need brakes, suspension, rear lsd, LCAs, etc... it keeps going on and on.
That grand could have gone a long way to a transmission that can hold the power, or any of the other things that you need at any power level.
So if you are going to use that extra power right away its worth it, but if you aren't its not really worth it to do a hybrid inbetween build.
Not to mention you will have to pay for a full tune at the low power levels, and another tune every time you change the setup on a standalone.
Generally, a base map might get you down the street but not very well.
again for any others reading this I am only reiterating this because I have heard so many people with future e85 plans or this or that, but the thing is E85 is not something that is easy or to be taken lightly.
It is rather expensive and tricky to get a proper functioning E85 setup, there are lots of little things that you haven't even thought of until you try it or if you are lucky learn from others, surge tank and constantly clogging fuel filters for example as E85 cleans everything out. alot of people have learned to use a new fuel tank for better success. You will also want the special PFTE lines and fittings for those, and don't have any rubber lines in the system.
while a flex fuel sensor is optional, a fuel pressure sensor is not due to the nature of E85 clogging up stuff and you don't want to go lean and loose the motor then if the pressure dips.
Also you are generally limited by where you can get E85, the quality of the blend, and in winter and summer there are different blends.
I hope I am sort of talking you out of E85 at 600hp, because it is sort of a ground where you can still get 500 with pump gas, and honestly, all that extra work I have mentioned and a whole bunch I skipped over that you will need to learn is not worth 100 or even 200hp more.
I personally wouldn't even think about going through all that trouble for less than 7-800hp+ and then you wouldn't be asking questions in this thread, you would be talking to a reputable builder and/or tuner who hopefully knows enough to keep your engine spinning in one piece.
Where is Gerrb at? Gerrb come and give them some E85 knowledge. And tell them how much fun a dialed in pump gas setup is at 500hp with all the supporting mods like lsd, suspension, and the right transmission and gear ratios.
All you really need to do for a good pump gas na-t setup is get the drop in 440 injectors and an upgraded fuel pump. And do the tt ecu mod. that will get you 400whp.
use 550s and a piggyback and you can get to 500whp. above that you want to look into a standalone and other fuel etc.. you will start to get close to the limits of the stock fuel system and pump gas.
the difference between an easy pump gas setup on a stock gte ecu and a e85 standalone setup is night and day, and several thousand dollars at least.. could be alot more once you start adding it up.
Like the adapter thing above, its not common to go from a stock 7/16" hard line to a big fuel rail with AN fittings... when you need the bigger fuel rail etc.. you run new AN lines from the tank generally speaking, I would only really use that to use the old feed line as a return line but even then you could just run another line.
Ok, my E85 rant is over now
Last edited by Ali SC3; 07-24-19 at 03:53 PM.
07-24-19, 05:42 PM
#408
Advanced
The GE fuel pressure regulator does the same thing as the gte one. it works and is already on your fuel rail, no need to replace it.
I ran 1000cc EV14 injectors on the stock fuel rail and lines, damper, fpr, etc.. all stock. only thing I changed was I dropped a walboro pump in the tank. didn't even do the 12v mod.
I was on the aem ems v1 at the time and it ran and idled great. I was probably around 400whp, but with those injectors I had room to do upgrades down the line in case I overhauled the whole system (sound familiar?).
I actually changed that setup to figure out the tt ecu mod and installed 440's and then 550's with a piggyback because the gte ecu all around worked better than the standalone and I was dailying my car at the time.
with the aem ems v1 I often could not get the car to start in cold weather, sometimes in any weather, and the idle would randomly need adjustments up or down as it never really stayed in one spot.
EMS's have gotten alot better now so it isn't as bad, but the stock fuel system is good for 500 easy with injectors and an upgraded pump whatever ecu you use.
you can purchase an expensive aftermarket FPR, rail, all the lines, plumb everything and it look shiny, but under 500ish hp on pump gas its completely unnecessary.
The best piece of advice I can give you is to decide on 1 setup, and just build that. Don't do a just for now and then later thing.
I have talked to dozens of people about this exact same thing, and majority of them over the years ended up completely redoing the setup and re-buying parts, and wasting all that labor time.
Take it for what its worth, but my advice is to wait until you can do the setup you really want, and if it is too ridiculous to do all at once maybe decide on an easier setup.
lets say you spend a grand or more on a fuel upgrade you wont actually need till your next setup, but while at 400hp on low boost you realize you have blown your clutch, grenaded your trans, and/or need brakes, suspension, rear lsd, LCAs, etc... it keeps going on and on.
That grand could have gone a long way to a transmission that can hold the power, or any of the other things that you need at any power level.
So if you are going to use that extra power right away its worth it, but if you aren't its not really worth it to do a hybrid inbetween build.
Not to mention you will have to pay for a full tune at the low power levels, and another tune every time you change the setup on a standalone.
Generally, a base map might get you down the street but not very well.
again for any others reading this I am only reiterating this because I have heard so many people with future e85 plans or this or that, but the thing is E85 is not something that is easy or to be taken lightly.
It is rather expensive and tricky to get a proper functioning E85 setup, there are lots of little things that you haven't even thought of until you try it or if you are lucky learn from others, surge tank and constantly clogging fuel filters for example as E85 cleans everything out. alot of people have learned to use a new fuel tank for better success. You will also want the special PFTE lines and fittings for those, and don't have any rubber lines in the system.
while a flex fuel sensor is optional, a fuel pressure sensor is not due to the nature of E85 clogging up stuff and you don't want to go lean and loose the motor then if the pressure dips.
Also you are generally limited by where you can get E85, the quality of the blend, and in winter and summer there are different blends.
I hope I am sort of talking you out of E85 at 600hp, because it is sort of a ground where you can still get 500 with pump gas, and honestly, all that extra work I have mentioned and a whole bunch I skipped over that you will need to learn is not worth 100 or even 200hp more.
I personally wouldn't even think about going through all that trouble for less than 7-800hp+ and then you wouldn't be asking questions in this thread, you would be talking to a reputable builder and/or tuner who hopefully knows enough to keep your engine spinning in one piece.
Where is Gerrb at? Gerrb come and give them some E85 knowledge. And tell them how much fun a dialed in pump gas setup is at 500hp with all the supporting mods like lsd, suspension, and the right transmission and gear ratios.
All you really need to do for a good pump gas na-t setup is get the drop in 440 injectors and an upgraded fuel pump. And do the tt ecu mod. that will get you 400whp.
use 550s and a piggyback and you can get to 500whp. above that you want to look into a standalone and other fuel etc.. you will start to get close to the limits of the stock fuel system and pump gas.
the difference between an easy pump gas setup on a stock gte ecu and a e85 standalone setup is night and day, and several thousand dollars at least.. could be alot more once you start adding it up.
Like the adapter thing above, its not common to go from a stock 7/16" hard line to a big fuel rail with AN fittings... when you need the bigger fuel rail etc.. you run new AN lines from the tank generally speaking, I would only really use that to use the old feed line as a return line but even then you could just run another line.
Ok, my E85 rant is over now
I ran 1000cc EV14 injectors on the stock fuel rail and lines, damper, fpr, etc.. all stock. only thing I changed was I dropped a walboro pump in the tank. didn't even do the 12v mod.
I was on the aem ems v1 at the time and it ran and idled great. I was probably around 400whp, but with those injectors I had room to do upgrades down the line in case I overhauled the whole system (sound familiar?).
I actually changed that setup to figure out the tt ecu mod and installed 440's and then 550's with a piggyback because the gte ecu all around worked better than the standalone and I was dailying my car at the time.
with the aem ems v1 I often could not get the car to start in cold weather, sometimes in any weather, and the idle would randomly need adjustments up or down as it never really stayed in one spot.
EMS's have gotten alot better now so it isn't as bad, but the stock fuel system is good for 500 easy with injectors and an upgraded pump whatever ecu you use.
you can purchase an expensive aftermarket FPR, rail, all the lines, plumb everything and it look shiny, but under 500ish hp on pump gas its completely unnecessary.
The best piece of advice I can give you is to decide on 1 setup, and just build that. Don't do a just for now and then later thing.
I have talked to dozens of people about this exact same thing, and majority of them over the years ended up completely redoing the setup and re-buying parts, and wasting all that labor time.
Take it for what its worth, but my advice is to wait until you can do the setup you really want, and if it is too ridiculous to do all at once maybe decide on an easier setup.
lets say you spend a grand or more on a fuel upgrade you wont actually need till your next setup, but while at 400hp on low boost you realize you have blown your clutch, grenaded your trans, and/or need brakes, suspension, rear lsd, LCAs, etc... it keeps going on and on.
That grand could have gone a long way to a transmission that can hold the power, or any of the other things that you need at any power level.
So if you are going to use that extra power right away its worth it, but if you aren't its not really worth it to do a hybrid inbetween build.
Not to mention you will have to pay for a full tune at the low power levels, and another tune every time you change the setup on a standalone.
Generally, a base map might get you down the street but not very well.
again for any others reading this I am only reiterating this because I have heard so many people with future e85 plans or this or that, but the thing is E85 is not something that is easy or to be taken lightly.
It is rather expensive and tricky to get a proper functioning E85 setup, there are lots of little things that you haven't even thought of until you try it or if you are lucky learn from others, surge tank and constantly clogging fuel filters for example as E85 cleans everything out. alot of people have learned to use a new fuel tank for better success. You will also want the special PFTE lines and fittings for those, and don't have any rubber lines in the system.
while a flex fuel sensor is optional, a fuel pressure sensor is not due to the nature of E85 clogging up stuff and you don't want to go lean and loose the motor then if the pressure dips.
Also you are generally limited by where you can get E85, the quality of the blend, and in winter and summer there are different blends.
I hope I am sort of talking you out of E85 at 600hp, because it is sort of a ground where you can still get 500 with pump gas, and honestly, all that extra work I have mentioned and a whole bunch I skipped over that you will need to learn is not worth 100 or even 200hp more.
I personally wouldn't even think about going through all that trouble for less than 7-800hp+ and then you wouldn't be asking questions in this thread, you would be talking to a reputable builder and/or tuner who hopefully knows enough to keep your engine spinning in one piece.
Where is Gerrb at? Gerrb come and give them some E85 knowledge. And tell them how much fun a dialed in pump gas setup is at 500hp with all the supporting mods like lsd, suspension, and the right transmission and gear ratios.
All you really need to do for a good pump gas na-t setup is get the drop in 440 injectors and an upgraded fuel pump. And do the tt ecu mod. that will get you 400whp.
use 550s and a piggyback and you can get to 500whp. above that you want to look into a standalone and other fuel etc.. you will start to get close to the limits of the stock fuel system and pump gas.
the difference between an easy pump gas setup on a stock gte ecu and a e85 standalone setup is night and day, and several thousand dollars at least.. could be alot more once you start adding it up.
Like the adapter thing above, its not common to go from a stock 7/16" hard line to a big fuel rail with AN fittings... when you need the bigger fuel rail etc.. you run new AN lines from the tank generally speaking, I would only really use that to use the old feed line as a return line but even then you could just run another line.
Ok, my E85 rant is over now
The appeal of not having to run a fuel system right now does sound QUITE nice as i would be basically almost done then if i could just drop a pump and injectors in and get the FFIM hooked up with IACV and all the goodies..
07-24-19, 09:53 PM
#409
There are different fuel pump options, a tt denso would get you close and some walboros flow enough, there are other higher flowing pumps that could do the job too.
Pretty much have to do the pump whatever you choose, but after that drop in some regular 550cc injectors or you can use ev14 1000cc+ injectors that are 11mm on the stock rail (little more expensive), and both are easy to tune. The GE already has a top feed fuel rail, the gte setups have to convert cause they are side feed stock so its kind of like a nice head start until you outflow the stock stuff. the gte stuff will generally be 14mm though cause of the aftermarket rails, but alot of the stores sell both kinds.
Another good way to think of some of this stuff is like what would a usdm supra with stock 550s and a stock denso be able to do on pump gas? there are lots of those around that get pretty close when you crank the boost up (especially on a single), and a na-t has a touch more compression which adds a bit more. there is lots of info out on those setups, def look into that stuff.
good start: https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...2jztge.585097/
Pretty much have to do the pump whatever you choose, but after that drop in some regular 550cc injectors or you can use ev14 1000cc+ injectors that are 11mm on the stock rail (little more expensive), and both are easy to tune. The GE already has a top feed fuel rail, the gte setups have to convert cause they are side feed stock so its kind of like a nice head start until you outflow the stock stuff. the gte stuff will generally be 14mm though cause of the aftermarket rails, but alot of the stores sell both kinds.
Another good way to think of some of this stuff is like what would a usdm supra with stock 550s and a stock denso be able to do on pump gas? there are lots of those around that get pretty close when you crank the boost up (especially on a single), and a na-t has a touch more compression which adds a bit more. there is lots of info out on those setups, def look into that stuff.
good start: https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...2jztge.585097/
Last edited by Ali SC3; 07-24-19 at 10:11 PM.
07-25-19, 07:23 AM
#410
Advanced
There are different fuel pump options, a tt denso would get you close and some walboros flow enough, there are other higher flowing pumps that could do the job too.
Pretty much have to do the pump whatever you choose, but after that drop in some regular 550cc injectors or you can use ev14 1000cc+ injectors that are 11mm on the stock rail (little more expensive), and both are easy to tune. The GE already has a top feed fuel rail, the gte setups have to convert cause they are side feed stock so its kind of like a nice head start until you outflow the stock stuff. the gte stuff will generally be 14mm though cause of the aftermarket rails, but alot of the stores sell both kinds.
Another good way to think of some of this stuff is like what would a usdm supra with stock 550s and a stock denso be able to do on pump gas? there are lots of those around that get pretty close when you crank the boost up (especially on a single), and a na-t has a touch more compression which adds a bit more. there is lots of info out on those setups, def look into that stuff.
good start: https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...2jztge.585097/
Pretty much have to do the pump whatever you choose, but after that drop in some regular 550cc injectors or you can use ev14 1000cc+ injectors that are 11mm on the stock rail (little more expensive), and both are easy to tune. The GE already has a top feed fuel rail, the gte setups have to convert cause they are side feed stock so its kind of like a nice head start until you outflow the stock stuff. the gte stuff will generally be 14mm though cause of the aftermarket rails, but alot of the stores sell both kinds.
Another good way to think of some of this stuff is like what would a usdm supra with stock 550s and a stock denso be able to do on pump gas? there are lots of those around that get pretty close when you crank the boost up (especially on a single), and a na-t has a touch more compression which adds a bit more. there is lots of info out on those setups, def look into that stuff.
good start: https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...2jztge.585097/
Just to clarify a 11mm x 60mm injector fits in the stock rail?
Something like a ID1050 like this would work then?
https://www.realstreetperformance.co...k4-11mm-2.html
Which springs should i start out with on my Tial 44 MVR?
Anyone know if there were crush washers on the stock GE fuel rail banjo fitting?
Last edited by silentkill; 07-25-19 at 07:40 AM.
07-25-19, 07:42 AM
#411
I am running the OsideTiger 440cc drop-in injectors and AEM 320LPH pump. That will be plenty for 400whp and the pump itself supports quite a bit more than that as does the stock fuel lines. In the future I do plan on upgrading to 550cc injectors and a S-AFC but I wanted to get everything running well on this setup first (and the 440cc injectors should be a easy sell at 2/3 of their list price and not really cost me anything for the upgrades in the future).
I thought I read in this and the TT ECU Mod thread that you could get the piggy back setup to work well and reliably with good drivability on up to 650cc injectors...Was that not correct? I'd just like the ability to run upward 600whp without messing with everything. If drivability suffers over 550cc injectors on s-afc then I can always run methanol injection and throw a few more psi at it on a tt head gasket to get there. At the 500whp range or more things start getting really expensive as well in terms of driveline, etc. but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
I thought I read in this and the TT ECU Mod thread that you could get the piggy back setup to work well and reliably with good drivability on up to 650cc injectors...Was that not correct? I'd just like the ability to run upward 600whp without messing with everything. If drivability suffers over 550cc injectors on s-afc then I can always run methanol injection and throw a few more psi at it on a tt head gasket to get there. At the 500whp range or more things start getting really expensive as well in terms of driveline, etc. but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
Last edited by Polarisman; 07-25-19 at 07:46 AM.
07-25-19, 07:48 AM
#412
Advanced
or am i just overkilling with 1000s and should do 550s based on the supra post you shared.
do injectors come with the static data to get the ecu to function them properly?
https://www.driftmotion.com/550cc-Bo...p-p/dm2756.htm ?
There's ABSOLUTELY no need for bigger injectors... with the 2J you can use the 1/1-rule of thumb... 1cc for 1RWHP .... so 550's are perfect for 500RWHP...
800ccs would run at about 60% duty-cycle and would be a useless upgrade...
800ccs would run at about 60% duty-cycle and would be a useless upgrade...
https://www.driftmotion.com/550cc-Bo...p-p/dm2756.htm ?
Last edited by silentkill; 07-25-19 at 08:40 AM.
07-25-19, 10:54 AM
#413
My original plan was a walbro 450 so ill probably just do that since they are like $130 lol
Just to clarify a 11mm x 60mm injector fits in the stock rail?
Something like a ID1050 like this would work then?
https://www.realstreetperformance.co...k4-11mm-2.html
Which springs should i start out with on my Tial 44 MVR?
Anyone know if there were crush washers on the stock GE fuel rail banjo fitting?
Just to clarify a 11mm x 60mm injector fits in the stock rail?
Something like a ID1050 like this would work then?
https://www.realstreetperformance.co...k4-11mm-2.html
Which springs should i start out with on my Tial 44 MVR?
Anyone know if there were crush washers on the stock GE fuel rail banjo fitting?
I would go with a 8-12 psi spring and use a boost controller from there.
every banjo bolt has 2 crush washers, one on the top and one on the bottom, if you miss one or reuse too many times you get a fuel leak and it can catch on fire pretty quick if the block is hot.
so after any fuel changes power up the fuel pump without the motor running, and watch/test for leaks before starting the engine. including at the banjo, and all the injectors o/rings, run your finger over each one and feel for wetness.
only after you are positive its good would you want to start the engine, otherwise its alot more risky.
I am running the OsideTiger 440cc drop-in injectors and AEM 320LPH pump. That will be plenty for 400whp and the pump itself supports quite a bit more than that as does the stock fuel lines. In the future I do plan on upgrading to 550cc injectors and a S-AFC but I wanted to get everything running well on this setup first (and the 440cc injectors should be a easy sell at 2/3 of their list price and not really cost me anything for the upgrades in the future).
I thought I read in this and the TT ECU Mod thread that you could get the piggy back setup to work well and reliably with good drivability on up to 650cc injectors...Was that not correct? I'd just like the ability to run upward 600whp without messing with everything. If drivability suffers over 550cc injectors on s-afc then I can always run methanol injection and throw a few more psi at it on a tt head gasket to get there. At the 500whp range or more things start getting really expensive as well in terms of driveline, etc. but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
I thought I read in this and the TT ECU Mod thread that you could get the piggy back setup to work well and reliably with good drivability on up to 650cc injectors...Was that not correct? I'd just like the ability to run upward 600whp without messing with everything. If drivability suffers over 550cc injectors on s-afc then I can always run methanol injection and throw a few more psi at it on a tt head gasket to get there. At the 500whp range or more things start getting really expensive as well in terms of driveline, etc. but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
If you don't mind keeping the idle higher and dealing with small issues then you could try it but 550 is the sweet spot more or less.
For 600hp on pump gas.... you would want to monitor knock and everything pretty closely on a standalone. that is not a factory ecu territory and a lot of extra HP.
or am i just overkilling with 1000s and should do 550s based on the supra post you shared.
do injectors come with the static data to get the ecu to function them properly?
https://www.driftmotion.com/550cc-Bo...p-p/dm2756.htm ?
do injectors come with the static data to get the ecu to function them properly?
https://www.driftmotion.com/550cc-Bo...p-p/dm2756.htm ?
You could get some good drop in 440's from oside tiger for like $240, they seem to be out of 550cc injectors right now online, but they seem to stock them every so often.
since you have the standalone and are looking for more power I wouldn't go with the 440's, I would go at with at least 550cc, but the 1000cc ev14 injectors that fit aren't a bad idea.
lots of people do the rail and the fuel pressure regulator also, just wanted to make sure you know its not actually needed until you get to that next power level.
But if you do want to go ahead and get it out of the way, then get the 14mm stuff and I would probably run a new feed line etc.. I don't know what adapters you would use with the stock lines but pretty sure they are out there.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 07-25-19 at 11:08 AM.
07-25-19, 11:21 AM
#414
Advanced
Thank you Ali! I'll probably end with walbro 450/id1050x.
This is perfect that means i'm super close to "finishing" it. Appreciate the advice on the banjo washers, i'll order replacements on the one i removed.
Is that these washers?
https://www.driftmotion.com/12mm-Alu...r-p/dm2060.htm
are you sure a 8-12 won't be too much? I have a GTX3582r 1.06 AR (idk much about turbo flow )
This is perfect that means i'm super close to "finishing" it. Appreciate the advice on the banjo washers, i'll order replacements on the one i removed.
Is that these washers?
https://www.driftmotion.com/12mm-Alu...r-p/dm2060.htm
are you sure a 8-12 won't be too much? I have a GTX3582r 1.06 AR (idk much about turbo flow )
Last edited by silentkill; 07-25-19 at 11:29 AM.
07-25-19, 12:04 PM
#415
Those look like the correct washers. they have a habit of falling and disappearing so maybe grab a few extra just to keep on hand.
That is a pretty big A/R on the turbo. The spring will be the lowest psi you can run if that helps, boost controller will only raise it, so maybe around a 8 psi would be good? this sort of comes down to personal preference.
That is a pretty big A/R on the turbo. The spring will be the lowest psi you can run if that helps, boost controller will only raise it, so maybe around a 8 psi would be good? this sort of comes down to personal preference.
07-26-19, 08:41 AM
#416
Sounds like I plan to me, Ali. I'll plan on doing 550cc injectors and a S-AFC, TT head gasket, 10 degrees of timing (someday). You're limited to around 19-20psi on the stock Denso MAP, right? Would that get you to 500whp on 93 octane? Or would it run out of fuel below 20psi? Just curious as I could always supplement with methanol injection if that is necessary to get to 20psi. Just looking to see how far the TT mod could be pushed. Good news with the AR5, they use LS swap kits on the solstice on stock AR5 transmission, some people are running supercharged LS motors so you are in the 500wtq wheelhouse with good success. Time to start saving!
07-26-19, 12:49 PM
#417
the gte ecu has factory boost cut at 14.5 psi or somewhere around there (when map sensor reads 4.x volts).
now if you use a safc and 550's instead of stock 440's, you are basically lowering the map signal with the safc (its like a 15-20% correction on the safc), so that will let you run more boost until you hit fuel cut (still at the same voltage for the map sensor).
I am not sure where exactly it will let you boost to till you hit fuel cut again with the 550s and safc, but it will be a few psi more at least.
above that people use a boost cut controller to clamp the voltage right before boost cut, then you can turn the boost up to whatever you want.
You will run out of fuel at a certain boost level, where your afr gauge will dip into the 12's and if you get near 13 you have gone too far boost wise.
I am not a genie with a magical crystal ball to determine every turbo type and setup and tell you what psi that will be.
What I do is start with a safe boost level, turn it up 1-2 and then test it. I watch the AFR's or get someone to watch it while driving. on a standalone you can log this stuff so its alot easier, but its still the same concept.
whatever psi you can go up to where you are still seeing a 11-12 afr without dipping below 12.5, is probably the max you can run on that setup. this would be with a tt headgasket.
If you are on stock compression, I wouldn't dip below 11.5-12 probably, and I would be more careful turning the boost up without being able to monitor knock. again these are all guesstimates.
Don't be concerned with the max boost you can run yet, start with something safe and work out all the kinks.
With Na-t there will be lots of stuff that will need attention.
Once you get used to the car, you will know when its feeling off, or when you have gone too far boost wise.
An ar5 or a r154 in good condition (harder to find now) will hold 500 pretty well with the right clutch. a w58 will not.
400+ hp in a sc300 is already alot and arguably dangerous without doing larger brakes, stiffening up the suspension, wider wheels and tires.. and a lsd would be a good idea so you can lay that power down safely.
It isn't that fun to spin one wheel at 400hp and the more power you have all those things get more serious, so take it slow and alot of these things will become obvious as you do them.
When I started trying to learn all this stuff it was harder to find info back then. It turned out that just trying things one at a time and seeing how stuff worked myself was way more valuable than anything I could find online.
So use all this info as a guide and once you start you will get a feel for it and I bet alot of this stuff will become obvious that doesn't seem clear now, but if you get stuck just ask.. everything has a learning curve but na-t is a huge one.
compared to buying a 2jzgte, doing a gasket refresh, ordering a swap harness, and bolting it all in... na-t is like 10 times harder than that cause you have to setup the motor and turbo yourself.. but once you do you will really know how a 2jz works and how amazing of a motor it is.
now if you use a safc and 550's instead of stock 440's, you are basically lowering the map signal with the safc (its like a 15-20% correction on the safc), so that will let you run more boost until you hit fuel cut (still at the same voltage for the map sensor).
I am not sure where exactly it will let you boost to till you hit fuel cut again with the 550s and safc, but it will be a few psi more at least.
above that people use a boost cut controller to clamp the voltage right before boost cut, then you can turn the boost up to whatever you want.
You will run out of fuel at a certain boost level, where your afr gauge will dip into the 12's and if you get near 13 you have gone too far boost wise.
I am not a genie with a magical crystal ball to determine every turbo type and setup and tell you what psi that will be.
What I do is start with a safe boost level, turn it up 1-2 and then test it. I watch the AFR's or get someone to watch it while driving. on a standalone you can log this stuff so its alot easier, but its still the same concept.
whatever psi you can go up to where you are still seeing a 11-12 afr without dipping below 12.5, is probably the max you can run on that setup. this would be with a tt headgasket.
If you are on stock compression, I wouldn't dip below 11.5-12 probably, and I would be more careful turning the boost up without being able to monitor knock. again these are all guesstimates.
Don't be concerned with the max boost you can run yet, start with something safe and work out all the kinks.
With Na-t there will be lots of stuff that will need attention.
Once you get used to the car, you will know when its feeling off, or when you have gone too far boost wise.
An ar5 or a r154 in good condition (harder to find now) will hold 500 pretty well with the right clutch. a w58 will not.
400+ hp in a sc300 is already alot and arguably dangerous without doing larger brakes, stiffening up the suspension, wider wheels and tires.. and a lsd would be a good idea so you can lay that power down safely.
It isn't that fun to spin one wheel at 400hp and the more power you have all those things get more serious, so take it slow and alot of these things will become obvious as you do them.
When I started trying to learn all this stuff it was harder to find info back then. It turned out that just trying things one at a time and seeing how stuff worked myself was way more valuable than anything I could find online.
So use all this info as a guide and once you start you will get a feel for it and I bet alot of this stuff will become obvious that doesn't seem clear now, but if you get stuck just ask.. everything has a learning curve but na-t is a huge one.
compared to buying a 2jzgte, doing a gasket refresh, ordering a swap harness, and bolting it all in... na-t is like 10 times harder than that cause you have to setup the motor and turbo yourself.. but once you do you will really know how a 2jz works and how amazing of a motor it is.
07-26-19, 06:47 PM
#418
the gte ecu has factory boost cut at 14.5 psi or somewhere around there (when map sensor reads 4.x volts).
now if you use a safc and 550's instead of stock 440's, you are basically lowering the map signal with the safc (its like a 15-20% correction on the safc), so that will let you run more boost until you hit fuel cut (still at the same voltage for the map sensor).
I am not sure where exactly it will let you boost to till you hit fuel cut again with the 550s and safc, but it will be a few psi more at least.
above that people use a boost cut controller to clamp the voltage right before boost cut, then you can turn the boost up to whatever you want.
You will run out of fuel at a certain boost level, where your afr gauge will dip into the 12's and if you get near 13 you have gone too far boost wise.
I am not a genie with a magical crystal ball to determine every turbo type and setup and tell you what psi that will be.
What I do is start with a safe boost level, turn it up 1-2 and then test it. I watch the AFR's or get someone to watch it while driving. on a standalone you can log this stuff so its alot easier, but its still the same concept.
whatever psi you can go up to where you are still seeing a 11-12 afr without dipping below 12.5, is probably the max you can run on that setup. this would be with a tt headgasket.
If you are on stock compression, I wouldn't dip below 11.5-12 probably, and I would be more careful turning the boost up without being able to monitor knock. again these are all guesstimates.
Don't be concerned with the max boost you can run yet, start with something safe and work out all the kinks.
With Na-t there will be lots of stuff that will need attention.
Once you get used to the car, you will know when its feeling off, or when you have gone too far boost wise.
An ar5 or a r154 in good condition (harder to find now) will hold 500 pretty well with the right clutch. a w58 will not.
400+ hp in a sc300 is already alot and arguably dangerous without doing larger brakes, stiffening up the suspension, wider wheels and tires.. and a lsd would be a good idea so you can lay that power down safely.
It isn't that fun to spin one wheel at 400hp and the more power you have all those things get more serious, so take it slow and alot of these things will become obvious as you do them.
When I started trying to learn all this stuff it was harder to find info back then. It turned out that just trying things one at a time and seeing how stuff worked myself was way more valuable than anything I could find online.
So use all this info as a guide and once you start you will get a feel for it and I bet alot of this stuff will become obvious that doesn't seem clear now, but if you get stuck just ask.. everything has a learning curve but na-t is a huge one.
compared to buying a 2jzgte, doing a gasket refresh, ordering a swap harness, and bolting it all in... na-t is like 10 times harder than that cause you have to setup the motor and turbo yourself.. but once you do you will really know how a 2jz works and how amazing of a motor it is.
now if you use a safc and 550's instead of stock 440's, you are basically lowering the map signal with the safc (its like a 15-20% correction on the safc), so that will let you run more boost until you hit fuel cut (still at the same voltage for the map sensor).
I am not sure where exactly it will let you boost to till you hit fuel cut again with the 550s and safc, but it will be a few psi more at least.
above that people use a boost cut controller to clamp the voltage right before boost cut, then you can turn the boost up to whatever you want.
You will run out of fuel at a certain boost level, where your afr gauge will dip into the 12's and if you get near 13 you have gone too far boost wise.
I am not a genie with a magical crystal ball to determine every turbo type and setup and tell you what psi that will be.
What I do is start with a safe boost level, turn it up 1-2 and then test it. I watch the AFR's or get someone to watch it while driving. on a standalone you can log this stuff so its alot easier, but its still the same concept.
whatever psi you can go up to where you are still seeing a 11-12 afr without dipping below 12.5, is probably the max you can run on that setup. this would be with a tt headgasket.
If you are on stock compression, I wouldn't dip below 11.5-12 probably, and I would be more careful turning the boost up without being able to monitor knock. again these are all guesstimates.
Don't be concerned with the max boost you can run yet, start with something safe and work out all the kinks.
With Na-t there will be lots of stuff that will need attention.
Once you get used to the car, you will know when its feeling off, or when you have gone too far boost wise.
An ar5 or a r154 in good condition (harder to find now) will hold 500 pretty well with the right clutch. a w58 will not.
400+ hp in a sc300 is already alot and arguably dangerous without doing larger brakes, stiffening up the suspension, wider wheels and tires.. and a lsd would be a good idea so you can lay that power down safely.
It isn't that fun to spin one wheel at 400hp and the more power you have all those things get more serious, so take it slow and alot of these things will become obvious as you do them.
When I started trying to learn all this stuff it was harder to find info back then. It turned out that just trying things one at a time and seeing how stuff worked myself was way more valuable than anything I could find online.
So use all this info as a guide and once you start you will get a feel for it and I bet alot of this stuff will become obvious that doesn't seem clear now, but if you get stuck just ask.. everything has a learning curve but na-t is a huge one.
compared to buying a 2jzgte, doing a gasket refresh, ordering a swap harness, and bolting it all in... na-t is like 10 times harder than that cause you have to setup the motor and turbo yourself.. but once you do you will really know how a 2jz works and how amazing of a motor it is.
Mine has a soarer LSD and JIC coilovers already, running conti dsw 235 front/265 rear. Stock brakes with akebono pads all around for now. I had a chance to take the car on some windy back roads today and it felt great. Even at less than 5psi boost (keeping the rpms and throttle position low) it still felt much torquier than before. Can't wait to log some more miles on this! Thanks again for writing this all up and for all the continued support!
07-29-19, 11:19 AM
#419
sounds like you already put in some work to the car before going turbo then, those mods will be helpful with that extra power. Main things left I would recommend are the ls400 brakes, and when the rack bushings start to go get the solid aluminum ones, makes a big difference.
That and having good condition LCA bushings, if those are mushy you get some darting or tracking sometimes. Those are all the big things and sounds like you are pretty close.
Yeah just a few psi makes a big difference, I remember how long I thought 5-7 psi was quick. Then one day you will get in and it will feel normal. once I got to like 18 psi I was pretty happy.. but still wanted more lol.
That and having good condition LCA bushings, if those are mushy you get some darting or tracking sometimes. Those are all the big things and sounds like you are pretty close.
Yeah just a few psi makes a big difference, I remember how long I thought 5-7 psi was quick. Then one day you will get in and it will feel normal. once I got to like 18 psi I was pretty happy.. but still wanted more lol.
hahah