NA-T Questions?? Ask the Guru
08-15-19, 04:00 PM
#481
Honestly that is what I would do, to get a standalone to do that would require several sessions of tuning in both hot and cold weather... and all 650hp is going to do is grenade the rear differential when you spin that one wheel and it suddenly gets traction again.
I would focus on all the other areas first to help lay down the power you have, vs trying to chase hp numbers. 255 wouldn't be bad if you had a lsd, on an open diff I would go at least 275 on the rear. Best would be 275+ and the lsd.
Mid 11 is pretty perfect actually, you could push the boost to where it gets closer to 11.5-12 with the tt headgasket and ARPs.
550's will richen it up some and allow you to turn up the boost some more before it hits that 12 afr.
I ran both 440's with no piggyback and 550's with a map ecu piggyback and the car drove almost as good as with the 440's. Not as perfect of AFRs in driving but 95% there (I'm picky).
With the boost cranked up on a na-t with tt headgasket and 550cc you would have an easy 400+ at the wheels.. 450-500 should be reachable with the right turbo.
You can even hit over 400 at the wheels with 440cc injectors, but your AFRs will start to lean out around there.
Most setups I have heard results back from are around the low to mid 400's at the wheels, but that isn't too many setups.
It's a bit odd that so many people have done the mod now, but not a lot of people come back and share their experience with it.. I take that as they are too busy enjoying it.
It's really hard to say exactly cause with the 2jz, some people run like a 60-62mm turbo, everyone else runs a S366 cause.. hey thats what everyone else does right, and then you have people slapping huge 70+mm turbos on there.
And then all of those size turbo's have different a/r which will affect the flow and how much power you can make at what psi etc.. and the fuel goes up with PSI so there are a lot of variables.
Best advice I can give you guys, do research and decide on the setup you think its best, put your AFR gauge where you can see it well, and watch/learn yourself where you can still boost with a good AFR, and then go dyno it and tell me what it did =)
I would focus on all the other areas first to help lay down the power you have, vs trying to chase hp numbers. 255 wouldn't be bad if you had a lsd, on an open diff I would go at least 275 on the rear. Best would be 275+ and the lsd.
Mid 11 is pretty perfect actually, you could push the boost to where it gets closer to 11.5-12 with the tt headgasket and ARPs.
550's will richen it up some and allow you to turn up the boost some more before it hits that 12 afr.
I ran both 440's with no piggyback and 550's with a map ecu piggyback and the car drove almost as good as with the 440's. Not as perfect of AFRs in driving but 95% there (I'm picky).
With the boost cranked up on a na-t with tt headgasket and 550cc you would have an easy 400+ at the wheels.. 450-500 should be reachable with the right turbo.
You can even hit over 400 at the wheels with 440cc injectors, but your AFRs will start to lean out around there.
Most setups I have heard results back from are around the low to mid 400's at the wheels, but that isn't too many setups.
It's a bit odd that so many people have done the mod now, but not a lot of people come back and share their experience with it.. I take that as they are too busy enjoying it.
It's really hard to say exactly cause with the 2jz, some people run like a 60-62mm turbo, everyone else runs a S366 cause.. hey thats what everyone else does right, and then you have people slapping huge 70+mm turbos on there.
And then all of those size turbo's have different a/r which will affect the flow and how much power you can make at what psi etc.. and the fuel goes up with PSI so there are a lot of variables.
Best advice I can give you guys, do research and decide on the setup you think its best, put your AFR gauge where you can see it well, and watch/learn yourself where you can still boost with a good AFR, and then go dyno it and tell me what it did =)
Ali another question is I have an AR5 trans mated to stock SC300 auto diff and when cruising in 5th around 70 I'm @ about 3-3.1k rpm what diff would you recommend I swap with. I know everyone says auto TT but they are kind of hard to find and pricey.
Thanks again.
08-15-19, 08:23 PM
#482
Advanced
alright cool, thanks for the advice. I'm going to work on the traction issues first and then maybe take a wack at the 550cc and see what I can squeeze out of them. I have a 4in dp but I need it modded to fit my setup so Im sure that will help along with a 4" mp.
Ali another question is I have an AR5 trans mated to stock SC300 auto diff and when cruising in 5th around 70 I'm @ about 3-3.1k rpm what diff would you recommend I swap with. I know everyone says auto TT but they are kind of hard to find and pricey.
Thanks again.
Ali another question is I have an AR5 trans mated to stock SC300 auto diff and when cruising in 5th around 70 I'm @ about 3-3.1k rpm what diff would you recommend I swap with. I know everyone says auto TT but they are kind of hard to find and pricey.
Thanks again.
I have a W58 with auto diff and im at like 3k + at 75-80.
It somehow made the MPG go up a lot though which is weird, i got like 34mpg last trip before i tore it apart (NA)
08-16-19, 05:47 AM
#483
...Ali, how much further do you think you could push things if you were running methanol injection on top of the 550cc injectors and piggy back? I'm assuming you may be able to graze 550 with the increased octane and cooler charge temps allowing you to run more boost, but you'd be completely tapped out at that point and would have to run a safeguard or warning of some kind to verify you don't run out of methanol mid-pull.
08-16-19, 06:47 AM
#484
Advanced
...Ali, how much further do you think you could push things if you were running methanol injection on top of the 550cc injectors and piggy back? I'm assuming you may be able to graze 550 with the increased octane and cooler charge temps allowing you to run more boost, but you'd be completely tapped out at that point and would have to run a safeguard or warning of some kind to verify you don't run out of methanol mid-pull.
Here's some goodies from my ecu
08-16-19, 07:15 AM
#485
Yeah, I was just playing devil's advocate for the guy asking what the limits were, etc. Methanol injection is a good thing even if not tuned for as it helps keep combustion temps lower and cleans carbon deposits as it's used, making sure compression ratio is stable and helping to prevent potential hot spots for detonation. I'm thinking of putting it in mine in the future anyway.
The following users liked this post:
silentkill (08-16-19)
08-16-19, 07:47 AM
#486
Advanced
Yeah, I was just playing devil's advocate for the guy asking what the limits were, etc. Methanol injection is a good thing even if not tuned for as it helps keep combustion temps lower and cleans carbon deposits as it's used, making sure compression ratio is stable and helping to prevent potential hot spots for detonation. I'm thinking of putting it in mine in the future anyway.
08-16-19, 08:44 AM
#487
Ratios:
92-97 SC300
6 cyl, AT (4.27 ratio)
6 cyl, MT (4.08 ratio)
98-00 SC300
6 cyl, AT (4.27 ratio)
92-97 SC400
8 cyl (3.92 ratio)
98-00 SC400
8 cyl (3.266 ratio)
92-96 MKIV Supra
w/o turbo; (4.27 ratio) Limited Slip
w/o turbo; (4.27 ratio)
w/turbo, MT (3.133 ratio) Limited Slip
w/turbo, AT (3.769 ratio) Limited Slip
97-98 MKIV Supra
w/o turbo; (4.08 ratio) Limited Slip
w/o turbo; (4.08 ratio)
w/turbo, MT (3.133 ratio) Limited Slip
w/turbo, AT (3.769 ratio)
w/turbo, AT (3.769 ratio) Limited Slip
As you can see the Auto TT supra is the 3.769 ratio, and that is considered pretty ideal for the R154 and W58, but they have gotten hard to find and expensive.
If you are going to go the route of getting a regular open diff, and put a lsd in it like an aftermarket one (because they are more available at any time) then I would look into the 92-97 sc400 diff at 3.92.
I had the stock 5 spd gearing of 4.08, and it was alright more or less. I think the 3.92 would be a step in the right direction and widely available.
Now if you were running a 6spd, its pretty much agreed the one to use is the 3.226 from the 98+ sc400 (close to the manual TT 3.13 ratio). basically the cars that had the vvti 2uzfe (with the 5spd automatic) like the GS400 etc.. have this lower ratio diff in case you can't find one from an SC. I know some folks that liked to run the 3.226 with a R154, but the gears are long and you need a lot of power to move it reasonably 700+, this would be like a highway monster that would be slower off the line and more purpose built.
You can kind of see how the auto tt diff ratio is popular, as there aren't a whole lot of choices between the 3.92 and the 3.22.
That being said with more reasonable power levels the sc400 3.92 is not a bad choice to get and drop an LSD into, it will be a little better than the 4.08 diff the 5 speed SC's come with stock, and easier to find than the rest.
Also to note that the n/a supra 5speed w58 uses the higher ratio 4.27 like the automatics, its only the 5 speed SC that has the 4.08. I think they did that to make the supra feel sportier, but the 4.08 is better suited for boost stock.
I don't do methanol but lot's of people do, it will help squeeze out more power. I do not know what level is safe, someone who tunes every day wouldn't give you an answer either, they would have to see knock values and what the engine is happy with.
I do know that people used to run methanol injection instead of doing the tt headgasket, and they would be able to run a bar of boost at least, so it does get used on 2j's, do a search on SF probably more info.
It should help with detonation and get some more power out of it when setup right. As for it running out etc... there are kits you can get that have a light for monitoring it etc... but unless you are on a standalone, it can't cut the boost automatically, you will have to watch it yourself and make sure it does not run out. Most people who run it just keep a big jug of it in the garage and refill it as necessary. I am not a huge fan of power adders like that which can run out etc.. but it is very effective stuff for boost.
92-97 SC300
6 cyl, AT (4.27 ratio)
6 cyl, MT (4.08 ratio)
98-00 SC300
6 cyl, AT (4.27 ratio)
92-97 SC400
8 cyl (3.92 ratio)
98-00 SC400
8 cyl (3.266 ratio)
92-96 MKIV Supra
w/o turbo; (4.27 ratio) Limited Slip
w/o turbo; (4.27 ratio)
w/turbo, MT (3.133 ratio) Limited Slip
w/turbo, AT (3.769 ratio) Limited Slip
97-98 MKIV Supra
w/o turbo; (4.08 ratio) Limited Slip
w/o turbo; (4.08 ratio)
w/turbo, MT (3.133 ratio) Limited Slip
w/turbo, AT (3.769 ratio)
w/turbo, AT (3.769 ratio) Limited Slip
As you can see the Auto TT supra is the 3.769 ratio, and that is considered pretty ideal for the R154 and W58, but they have gotten hard to find and expensive.
If you are going to go the route of getting a regular open diff, and put a lsd in it like an aftermarket one (because they are more available at any time) then I would look into the 92-97 sc400 diff at 3.92.
I had the stock 5 spd gearing of 4.08, and it was alright more or less. I think the 3.92 would be a step in the right direction and widely available.
Now if you were running a 6spd, its pretty much agreed the one to use is the 3.226 from the 98+ sc400 (close to the manual TT 3.13 ratio). basically the cars that had the vvti 2uzfe (with the 5spd automatic) like the GS400 etc.. have this lower ratio diff in case you can't find one from an SC. I know some folks that liked to run the 3.226 with a R154, but the gears are long and you need a lot of power to move it reasonably 700+, this would be like a highway monster that would be slower off the line and more purpose built.
You can kind of see how the auto tt diff ratio is popular, as there aren't a whole lot of choices between the 3.92 and the 3.22.
That being said with more reasonable power levels the sc400 3.92 is not a bad choice to get and drop an LSD into, it will be a little better than the 4.08 diff the 5 speed SC's come with stock, and easier to find than the rest.
Also to note that the n/a supra 5speed w58 uses the higher ratio 4.27 like the automatics, its only the 5 speed SC that has the 4.08. I think they did that to make the supra feel sportier, but the 4.08 is better suited for boost stock.
I don't do methanol but lot's of people do, it will help squeeze out more power. I do not know what level is safe, someone who tunes every day wouldn't give you an answer either, they would have to see knock values and what the engine is happy with.
I do know that people used to run methanol injection instead of doing the tt headgasket, and they would be able to run a bar of boost at least, so it does get used on 2j's, do a search on SF probably more info.
It should help with detonation and get some more power out of it when setup right. As for it running out etc... there are kits you can get that have a light for monitoring it etc... but unless you are on a standalone, it can't cut the boost automatically, you will have to watch it yourself and make sure it does not run out. Most people who run it just keep a big jug of it in the garage and refill it as necessary. I am not a huge fan of power adders like that which can run out etc.. but it is very effective stuff for boost.
The following 2 users liked this post by Ali SC3:
silentkill (08-16-19),
suprasoup (08-16-19)
08-16-19, 11:05 AM
#488
Yeah what I am interested in is what cylinder pressures the stock head gasket and stock head studs can withstand before lifting the head. Methanol is great as it keeps those spikes in pressure from detonation at bay, but if you can run say 16psi on stock head gasket but the studs stretch at 15 the extra psi does you no good.
Either way, I guess I'll try to find out. I'm assuming that anything 15+psi would max out the 440cc injectors so I'd need to upgrade to the s-afc and 550s to see the pressures necessary to put the compression ratio to the test. I guess it's also possible to run paint thinner (forgot the exact name, not xylitol, something else) as an additive to fuel to up your octane rating as that is 114 octane. A gallon of that in a full tank of fuel will raise your octane rating by more than a point. Obviously if you had less fuel it'd do more. I like the idea of a faster spooling s366 setup on lower boost. I know without race gas or methanol injection I'm capped at a bar of boost or less, but if I can get 15-16psi out of it with methanol injection it may not be worth it to me to drop the CR a point just to get more peak HP. Usable power to me is more fun than peak HP anyway.
Either way, I guess I'll try to find out. I'm assuming that anything 15+psi would max out the 440cc injectors so I'd need to upgrade to the s-afc and 550s to see the pressures necessary to put the compression ratio to the test. I guess it's also possible to run paint thinner (forgot the exact name, not xylitol, something else) as an additive to fuel to up your octane rating as that is 114 octane. A gallon of that in a full tank of fuel will raise your octane rating by more than a point. Obviously if you had less fuel it'd do more. I like the idea of a faster spooling s366 setup on lower boost. I know without race gas or methanol injection I'm capped at a bar of boost or less, but if I can get 15-16psi out of it with methanol injection it may not be worth it to me to drop the CR a point just to get more peak HP. Usable power to me is more fun than peak HP anyway.
08-16-19, 01:07 PM
#489
It's more about detonation which lots of factors play into that including compression and fuel type.
It's not about what the bolts and gasket can normally handle, even with a tt gasket and arp studs if you have detonation it will still blow the gasket.
I have seen 700hp on ethanol on the stock GE headgasket and stock GE head bolts, not even arp headstuds, So they are plenty strong when used correctly without knock or detonation.
If you want to try and mix stuff to up your octane and experiment you can do that all you want but I am not going to recommend it, you won't get a reliable mix ever time and you have no way of monitoring knock.
If you want to achieve all that you should run E85 with a standalone and all the goodies if you want it to be reliable.
If you don't want to set the car up for E85, then run pump gas and get a smaller turbo like a S362 or one with the billet wheel that spools better and install the tt gasket.
Using a S366 on pump gas on low boost on stock compression makes me think you are focusing on the wrong stuff.
You will not have good usable power at a bar of boost with a S366, it will come strong after 3500-4k rpm's and basically be on the wastegate the entire time after that.
Size the turbo down and hit the spool earlier on a high compression setup. or install the gasket to lower compression and crank the boost up on the big turbo.
It's not about what the bolts and gasket can normally handle, even with a tt gasket and arp studs if you have detonation it will still blow the gasket.
I have seen 700hp on ethanol on the stock GE headgasket and stock GE head bolts, not even arp headstuds, So they are plenty strong when used correctly without knock or detonation.
If you want to try and mix stuff to up your octane and experiment you can do that all you want but I am not going to recommend it, you won't get a reliable mix ever time and you have no way of monitoring knock.
If you want to achieve all that you should run E85 with a standalone and all the goodies if you want it to be reliable.
If you don't want to set the car up for E85, then run pump gas and get a smaller turbo like a S362 or one with the billet wheel that spools better and install the tt gasket.
Using a S366 on pump gas on low boost on stock compression makes me think you are focusing on the wrong stuff.
You will not have good usable power at a bar of boost with a S366, it will come strong after 3500-4k rpm's and basically be on the wastegate the entire time after that.
Size the turbo down and hit the spool earlier on a high compression setup. or install the gasket to lower compression and crank the boost up on the big turbo.
08-16-19, 01:13 PM
#490
Advanced
I think i honestly picked a large turbo for what im ending up for goals this year but i do want to be able to turn it up in the future and i'm on the TT gasket/ARP. GTX3582R 1.06 A/R the compressor A/R is 0.70
I have loose thoughts about changing the turbine wheel housing down to a .82 or whatever they offer if the spool is terrible.
I have loose thoughts about changing the turbine wheel housing down to a .82 or whatever they offer if the spool is terrible.
08-16-19, 01:21 PM
#491
This is a good example, suprakidd on 93 octane with a s366 made 556 hp at 6650rpm @16 psi (Green line)
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...-on-2jzge.html
Notice how that setup doesn't even cross 300hp before 4500rpm's, and by the time you are at 500hp you are already about the shift.
The final number is nice if you drag it out, but as far as usable power I am not convinced this setup is that great for anything other than dynos or highway driving and I would run more boost like he did on E85 to get to 700, that makes it worth running that bigger turbo. But if you look into his setup he overhauled all of the factory stuff to support that amount of E85.
Now if you had a smaller turbo spooling even 1k rpm's sooner, but only got you 500 on the top end, you would have a more usable powerband for the street.
Really everyone does it differently, but you would choose the turbo for what you are trying to do.
Tried and true is that unless you are running E85 100% of the time, or running low boost, you should install the gasket and lower the compression.
There are some exceptions to that rule, like you can get away with more compression at altitude (but don't drive that setup to sea level and expect the same results), probably some others.
But generally speaking, the only way to squeak by on the stock headgasket and bolts and get more than 400ish would be to go tt headgasket.
You probably don't need the 550's then if you are on stock compression, I forgot about that earlier when I was talking about using 550s I assumed you were going to install or installed a tt gasket.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...-on-2jzge.html
Notice how that setup doesn't even cross 300hp before 4500rpm's, and by the time you are at 500hp you are already about the shift.
The final number is nice if you drag it out, but as far as usable power I am not convinced this setup is that great for anything other than dynos or highway driving and I would run more boost like he did on E85 to get to 700, that makes it worth running that bigger turbo. But if you look into his setup he overhauled all of the factory stuff to support that amount of E85.
Now if you had a smaller turbo spooling even 1k rpm's sooner, but only got you 500 on the top end, you would have a more usable powerband for the street.
Really everyone does it differently, but you would choose the turbo for what you are trying to do.
Tried and true is that unless you are running E85 100% of the time, or running low boost, you should install the gasket and lower the compression.
There are some exceptions to that rule, like you can get away with more compression at altitude (but don't drive that setup to sea level and expect the same results), probably some others.
But generally speaking, the only way to squeak by on the stock headgasket and bolts and get more than 400ish would be to go tt headgasket.
You probably don't need the 550's then if you are on stock compression, I forgot about that earlier when I was talking about using 550s I assumed you were going to install or installed a tt gasket.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 08-16-19 at 01:29 PM.
08-16-19, 01:27 PM
#492
I think i honestly picked a large turbo for what im ending up for goals this year but i do want to be able to turn it up in the future and i'm on the TT gasket/ARP. GTX3582R 1.06 A/R the compressor A/R is 0.70
I have loose thoughts about changing the turbine wheel housing down to a .82 or whatever they offer if the spool is terrible.
I have loose thoughts about changing the turbine wheel housing down to a .82 or whatever they offer if the spool is terrible.
It might spool ok, everyone has a different idea of what is ok. some people like me I like it to happen around 4k, but alot of these bigger power setups and turbos will be more like 5k+
The .82 would definitely help if you find it laggy, but I wouldn't go changing it right off the bat at this point unless it really bugs you.
The following users liked this post:
silentkill (08-16-19)
08-16-19, 01:31 PM
#493
Yeah my thought was I may be able to get the same amount of peak power on stock compression and 15-16psi with meth (and bigger than 440cc injectors if necessary to reach that boost ceiling) as I would with studs and a TT hg on 19-20psi which I understand is about the max boost the stock ecu and map will interpret). The point of compression you would drop to run more boost would result in slower spool though I don't know by how much. Plus iats would be lower with less boost, lowering chances of detonation. Maybe bypassing the tb with the coolant hose would help as well but I just concerned about the tb icing up.
08-16-19, 01:33 PM
#495
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ali I remember reading somewhere about a possible bypass to the rev limiter on the stock ecu. Is this possible as the only other options are G-Force Ecu’s or Standalone.