NA-T Questions?? Ask the Guru
09-25-19, 08:44 AM
#571
Advanced
Got some help from a fellow SC guy who's got the same ecu setup as me. Primary and secondary triggers now read!
I got a little pop and stumble a few times but we are waiting til i get an accurate timing read.
09-25-19, 09:08 AM
#572
If all the setting are good you can try rotating the dizzy base slightly to try and get it in the range it will start since you can't set the timing yet.
That can happen if its a tooth off which is really easy to do. Or if you can set a fixed timing for cranking, and get it close with the light while it's being cranked over.
That can happen if its a tooth off which is really easy to do. Or if you can set a fixed timing for cranking, and get it close with the light while it's being cranked over.
09-25-19, 04:45 PM
#573
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Stock 2001 is300 auto
Hey man I was wondering if you can help me out here I’ve been looking and a see a lot of back and forwards on what you need to change/upgrade in order to turbo this car. Do you have any advice recommendations for me?
09-26-19, 06:20 AM
#574
Advanced
If all the setting are good you can try rotating the dizzy base slightly to try and get it in the range it will start since you can't set the timing yet.
That can happen if its a tooth off which is really easy to do. Or if you can set a fixed timing for cranking, and get it close with the light while it's being cranked over.
That can happen if its a tooth off which is really easy to do. Or if you can set a fixed timing for cranking, and get it close with the light while it's being cranked over.
Ecu is showing that we're not building any vacuum so i'll have to dig into it later and see if i have any leaks.
We got spark, fuel, checked all the tbelt marks again, recentered the distributor notch (doesnt really matter because it can be adjusted in the ecu)
This is a fun one, of course i have the stubborn car. The first time we tried to start it last night was the best, it got up to a 400 rpm stumble and died.
Also it seems im cranking at 200rpm which seems pretty low, i wonder if my start is showing its age.
09-26-19, 10:07 AM
#575
An IS300 is vvti with the weaker rods/pistons, so you will need to work on the block or replace it for higher power levels, or if not have to run very low boost.
Do alot of research, these cars are not easy to turbocharge, but they are easier than some other cars, but it is still difficult and expensive.
When you have a specific na-t question, come back in here and I'll help you out.
Got a light finally. We've been playing with all the trigger settings left and right and can't seem to get this thing to barely stumble anymore.
Ecu is showing that we're not building any vacuum so i'll have to dig into it later and see if i have any leaks.
We got spark, fuel, checked all the tbelt marks again, recentered the distributor notch (doesnt really matter because it can be adjusted in the ecu)
This is a fun one, of course i have the stubborn car. The first time we tried to start it last night was the best, it got up to a 400 rpm stumble and died.
Also it seems im cranking at 200rpm which seems pretty low, i wonder if my start is showing its age.
Ecu is showing that we're not building any vacuum so i'll have to dig into it later and see if i have any leaks.
We got spark, fuel, checked all the tbelt marks again, recentered the distributor notch (doesnt really matter because it can be adjusted in the ecu)
This is a fun one, of course i have the stubborn car. The first time we tried to start it last night was the best, it got up to a 400 rpm stumble and died.
Also it seems im cranking at 200rpm which seems pretty low, i wonder if my start is showing its age.
Remember the distributor is already driven by the timing belt, which has a certain amount of play in it compared to a solid mounted crank and cam trigger.
There is also a timing "drift" at higher rpm's due to the timing belt, but it isn't a whole lot but it's there. Once you get far enough spot check your timing at a higher rpm as well.
I usually turn the dizzy gear back a tooth from being aligned before stabbing it into the head, as often it will spin forward a tooth while you do that.
I bet you are forward a tooth and too advanced to start the engine. You can start the 2j with very low timing, and it will start and run but with less power, and sound like a boat or an engine with a mean cam.
If you are getting popping and it not wanting to turn over, try backing off the dizzy. that little adjustment window is a huge range of timing, but if you are a tooth or more off it still wont be enough.
Another important parameter is the cold start fuel. some of these ecu's inject the cold start fuel as soon as it gets a syn status from the cam/crank sensors after you turn the key (usually batch injection), so if the first time you crank it it is not successful, you probably just soaked the plugs and need to wait to clear out the fuel by holding the throttle down and trying again (setup on some ecu's not to inject fuel, not all of them so check).
If you get some kind of turn over the first start in the morning, but not on the second start... you have too much cold start fuel, so pull some out. a good starting point is double the idle fuel at a reasonable cold temperature (winter needs more).
So just to get it to start, low timing, and a good shot of cold start fuel but not too much to wash it out. less will be better until you can get it dialed in, cause when you go for the second start it may be rich enough then and you may have to play with the throttle, but you don't want to soak the plugs, lock the engine with fuel, or wash the cylinder walls down. If you think later this was happening, change the oil out after getting it all setup as a precaution.
It seems like you are able to wrap your head around this sort of stuff so I think you will get it figured out, this is pretty normal for any standalone setup to run into issues like that.
If you did the tt ecu mod, it would have started and run by now for sure, but you wont have anywhere near all the features of the standalone.
I have definitely spent more time trying to get a 2jz to start on a standalone, then actually time spent tuning it. depending on the standalone it can be a nightmare.
I'll never forget the first time I saw some really built supras at a tuner shop (won't say where), I was excited and wanted to check them out, but they couldn't get either of them to start.
And be careful working the starter, if you keep cranking that thing over for a couple minutes, the starter will crap out on you. if that happens let it cool down for hours, and if you are lucky, it may work again when you come back.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-26-19 at 10:14 AM.
09-26-19, 01:14 PM
#576
Advanced
Do alot of reading, it has been done like 1000 times before and I am not very good at spoon feeding people.
An IS300 is vvti with the weaker rods/pistons, so you will need to work on the block or replace it for higher power levels, or if not have to run very low boost.
Do alot of research, these cars are not easy to turbocharge, but they are easier than some other cars, but it is still difficult and expensive.
When you have a specific na-t question, come back in here and I'll help you out.
Technically speaking, even though you can adjust it in the ecu you want the trigger event happening close to TDC, or your adjustments get large enough to cause issues.
Remember the distributor is already driven by the timing belt, which has a certain amount of play in it compared to a solid mounted crank and cam trigger.
There is also a timing "drift" at higher rpm's due to the timing belt, but it isn't a whole lot but it's there. Once you get far enough spot check your timing at a higher rpm as well.
I usually turn the dizzy gear back a tooth from being aligned before stabbing it into the head, as often it will spin forward a tooth while you do that.
I bet you are forward a tooth and too advanced to start the engine. You can start the 2j with very low timing, and it will start and run but with less power, and sound like a boat or an engine with a mean cam.
If you are getting popping and it not wanting to turn over, try backing off the dizzy. that little adjustment window is a huge range of timing, but if you are a tooth or more off it still wont be enough.
Another important parameter is the cold start fuel. some of these ecu's inject the cold start fuel as soon as it gets a syn status from the cam/crank sensors after you turn the key (usually batch injection), so if the first time you crank it it is not successful, you probably just soaked the plugs and need to wait to clear out the fuel by holding the throttle down and trying again (setup on some ecu's not to inject fuel, not all of them so check).
If you get some kind of turn over the first start in the morning, but not on the second start... you have too much cold start fuel, so pull some out. a good starting point is double the idle fuel at a reasonable cold temperature (winter needs more).
So just to get it to start, low timing, and a good shot of cold start fuel but not too much to wash it out. less will be better until you can get it dialed in, cause when you go for the second start it may be rich enough then and you may have to play with the throttle, but you don't want to soak the plugs, lock the engine with fuel, or wash the cylinder walls down. If you think later this was happening, change the oil out after getting it all setup as a precaution.
It seems like you are able to wrap your head around this sort of stuff so I think you will get it figured out, this is pretty normal for any standalone setup to run into issues like that.
If you did the tt ecu mod, it would have started and run by now for sure, but you wont have anywhere near all the features of the standalone.
I have definitely spent more time trying to get a 2jz to start on a standalone, then actually time spent tuning it. depending on the standalone it can be a nightmare.
I'll never forget the first time I saw some really built supras at a tuner shop (won't say where), I was excited and wanted to check them out, but they couldn't get either of them to start.
And be careful working the starter, if you keep cranking that thing over for a couple minutes, the starter will crap out on you. if that happens let it cool down for hours, and if you are lucky, it may work again when you come back.
An IS300 is vvti with the weaker rods/pistons, so you will need to work on the block or replace it for higher power levels, or if not have to run very low boost.
Do alot of research, these cars are not easy to turbocharge, but they are easier than some other cars, but it is still difficult and expensive.
When you have a specific na-t question, come back in here and I'll help you out.
Technically speaking, even though you can adjust it in the ecu you want the trigger event happening close to TDC, or your adjustments get large enough to cause issues.
Remember the distributor is already driven by the timing belt, which has a certain amount of play in it compared to a solid mounted crank and cam trigger.
There is also a timing "drift" at higher rpm's due to the timing belt, but it isn't a whole lot but it's there. Once you get far enough spot check your timing at a higher rpm as well.
I usually turn the dizzy gear back a tooth from being aligned before stabbing it into the head, as often it will spin forward a tooth while you do that.
I bet you are forward a tooth and too advanced to start the engine. You can start the 2j with very low timing, and it will start and run but with less power, and sound like a boat or an engine with a mean cam.
If you are getting popping and it not wanting to turn over, try backing off the dizzy. that little adjustment window is a huge range of timing, but if you are a tooth or more off it still wont be enough.
Another important parameter is the cold start fuel. some of these ecu's inject the cold start fuel as soon as it gets a syn status from the cam/crank sensors after you turn the key (usually batch injection), so if the first time you crank it it is not successful, you probably just soaked the plugs and need to wait to clear out the fuel by holding the throttle down and trying again (setup on some ecu's not to inject fuel, not all of them so check).
If you get some kind of turn over the first start in the morning, but not on the second start... you have too much cold start fuel, so pull some out. a good starting point is double the idle fuel at a reasonable cold temperature (winter needs more).
So just to get it to start, low timing, and a good shot of cold start fuel but not too much to wash it out. less will be better until you can get it dialed in, cause when you go for the second start it may be rich enough then and you may have to play with the throttle, but you don't want to soak the plugs, lock the engine with fuel, or wash the cylinder walls down. If you think later this was happening, change the oil out after getting it all setup as a precaution.
It seems like you are able to wrap your head around this sort of stuff so I think you will get it figured out, this is pretty normal for any standalone setup to run into issues like that.
If you did the tt ecu mod, it would have started and run by now for sure, but you wont have anywhere near all the features of the standalone.
I have definitely spent more time trying to get a 2jz to start on a standalone, then actually time spent tuning it. depending on the standalone it can be a nightmare.
I'll never forget the first time I saw some really built supras at a tuner shop (won't say where), I was excited and wanted to check them out, but they couldn't get either of them to start.
And be careful working the starter, if you keep cranking that thing over for a couple minutes, the starter will crap out on you. if that happens let it cool down for hours, and if you are lucky, it may work again when you come back.
I have suspicion that my idle valve doesnt function so ill probably try it later. It didnt work as well as the oem one when i tried it last time but that was before i repaired some wiring.
have you experienced low cranking RPM on 2j's?
also we got my trigger event happening dead smack in the middle of the primary trigger teeth events. Pretty sure we had cranking fuel pretty high and timing around 10 degrees locked trying to start it. Maybe i'll try to pop a tooth back on the distributor, resync timing, turn down the cranking fuel and try again. The no vacuum thing is weird as well ill have to dig around.
Last edited by silentkill; 09-27-19 at 08:54 AM.
09-27-19, 09:58 AM
#577
I want to say that on the aem mine would crank around 400 rpm's. Sometimes it can be hard to get a good signal from the crank sensor at the lower rpm's.
If you have a charger make sure the battery is charged up each round that you try (your best shot will be the first one or 2 attempts until it has time to sit again).
Other than that and not building vacuum, I would think cam timing could do something like that but it is pretty hard to not line it up straight after you do it a few times like you have by now.
What kind of trigger setup are you using? only other thing I can think of is that you maybe have the wrong cam trigger.
On the dizzy there is one for TDC #1 and one for TDC #6. On wasted spark the ecu can usually use either, but if you are setup in sequential then using the wrong one would make a big difference.
I am thinking it's something like that or just too much cold start fuel, you won't build much vacuum if there is no spark happening, and extra fuel in the cylinder will slow the engine down till it eventually stops/locks.
Then you gotta pull the plugs and turn it over to spit out the fuel (large rag in the plug valley to catch the spray) assuming rotating assembly is good which is probably will be cause cranking rpm's aren't that aggressive.
I mentioned earlier about double the idle fuel as a starting point for normal weather, but I forgot you don't know what that is yet lol.
Also there is usually a rpm point where it goes off the starting stuff and into the main fuel map, so make sure the main fuel map has realistic values for fuel and spark in the low load/idle areas.
IF not then when it exits the starting map after a few turn overs, it'll just fall on its face and seem like it doesn't want to start when its the main map.
If you have a charger make sure the battery is charged up each round that you try (your best shot will be the first one or 2 attempts until it has time to sit again).
Other than that and not building vacuum, I would think cam timing could do something like that but it is pretty hard to not line it up straight after you do it a few times like you have by now.
What kind of trigger setup are you using? only other thing I can think of is that you maybe have the wrong cam trigger.
On the dizzy there is one for TDC #1 and one for TDC #6. On wasted spark the ecu can usually use either, but if you are setup in sequential then using the wrong one would make a big difference.
I am thinking it's something like that or just too much cold start fuel, you won't build much vacuum if there is no spark happening, and extra fuel in the cylinder will slow the engine down till it eventually stops/locks.
Then you gotta pull the plugs and turn it over to spit out the fuel (large rag in the plug valley to catch the spray) assuming rotating assembly is good which is probably will be cause cranking rpm's aren't that aggressive.
I mentioned earlier about double the idle fuel as a starting point for normal weather, but I forgot you don't know what that is yet lol.
Also there is usually a rpm point where it goes off the starting stuff and into the main fuel map, so make sure the main fuel map has realistic values for fuel and spark in the low load/idle areas.
IF not then when it exits the starting map after a few turn overs, it'll just fall on its face and seem like it doesn't want to start when its the main map.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-27-19 at 10:03 AM.
09-27-19, 10:34 AM
#578
Advanced
I want to say that on the aem mine would crank around 400 rpm's. Sometimes it can be hard to get a good signal from the crank sensor at the lower rpm's.
If you have a charger make sure the battery is charged up each round that you try (your best shot will be the first one or 2 attempts until it has time to sit again).
Other than that and not building vacuum, I would think cam timing could do something like that but it is pretty hard to not line it up straight after you do it a few times like you have by now.
What kind of trigger setup are you using? only other thing I can think of is that you maybe have the wrong cam trigger.
On the dizzy there is one for TDC #1 and one for TDC #6. On wasted spark the ecu can usually use either, but if you are setup in sequential then using the wrong one would make a big difference.
I am thinking it's something like that or just too much cold start fuel, you won't build much vacuum if there is no spark happening, and extra fuel in the cylinder will slow the engine down till it eventually stops/locks.
Then you gotta pull the plugs and turn it over to spit out the fuel (large rag in the plug valley to catch the spray) assuming rotating assembly is good which is probably will be cause cranking rpm's aren't that aggressive.
I mentioned earlier about double the idle fuel as a starting point for normal weather, but I forgot you don't know what that is yet lol.
Also there is usually a rpm point where it goes off the starting stuff and into the main fuel map, so make sure the main fuel map has realistic values for fuel and spark in the low load/idle areas.
IF not then when it exits the starting map after a few turn overs, it'll just fall on its face and seem like it doesn't want to start when its the main map.
If you have a charger make sure the battery is charged up each round that you try (your best shot will be the first one or 2 attempts until it has time to sit again).
Other than that and not building vacuum, I would think cam timing could do something like that but it is pretty hard to not line it up straight after you do it a few times like you have by now.
What kind of trigger setup are you using? only other thing I can think of is that you maybe have the wrong cam trigger.
On the dizzy there is one for TDC #1 and one for TDC #6. On wasted spark the ecu can usually use either, but if you are setup in sequential then using the wrong one would make a big difference.
I am thinking it's something like that or just too much cold start fuel, you won't build much vacuum if there is no spark happening, and extra fuel in the cylinder will slow the engine down till it eventually stops/locks.
Then you gotta pull the plugs and turn it over to spit out the fuel (large rag in the plug valley to catch the spray) assuming rotating assembly is good which is probably will be cause cranking rpm's aren't that aggressive.
I mentioned earlier about double the idle fuel as a starting point for normal weather, but I forgot you don't know what that is yet lol.
Also there is usually a rpm point where it goes off the starting stuff and into the main fuel map, so make sure the main fuel map has realistic values for fuel and spark in the low load/idle areas.
IF not then when it exits the starting map after a few turn overs, it'll just fall on its face and seem like it doesn't want to start when its the main map.
This makes the secondary trigger land smack dab in the middle of the primary teeth on scope view.
I'm almost kind of suspecting my most apparent issue is my battery is weak, and not getting the thing spinning fast enough to fire the first couple tries then im just washing the cyl.
The last time we had a session, it almost started the first turn of the key then we just struggled after that.
My battery voltage during one of the logs:
09-27-19, 01:06 PM
#579
I am not sure those settings are correct. For sure all the triggers are falling edge, so your secondary trigger should be updated to falling edge.
You can only use rising edge reliably with hall effect sensors that produce a square wave, even then falling is more reliable.
You should have 24 teeth on a full engine cycle.
Gte is 12 tooth wheel on crank times 2 turns of the crank = 24 tooth wheel on the NA distributor for 1 cam turn (which is 2 turns of the crank).
So both setups put out 24 teeth for one full cycle, with a trigger at TDC#1 (when the first tooth starts) and a trigger at TDC#6 (half way through the cycle tooth 12 ish).
I am not sure what number that ecu is looking for in the teeth box, if it is talking about total number of teeth of a cycle or just the number on the crank wheel as it would be on the crank.
If it is the total number of teeth in a cycle for 6 cylinders, then it should be 24. IF it is just for one rotation, then it would be 12 but for 3 cylinders?? not really sure how this ecu is setup.
Generally with the aem's ive worked on fuel teeth should be in regards to 24 teeth, and if you are setup for wasted spark, ignition teeth can be 12 that repeats its cycle (so you setup 3 coils and it repeats), or you set it up for 24 teeth also and you have values in coils 1-6. That last part depends on how many coil outputs you have and how you have it wired up.
Since I don't see a separate fuel and ignition teeth box, that number of teeth box that has 12 in it above, *could be* asking for total number of teeth and could need to be 24 ( I am not sure not familiar with this ecu).
I would guess that the wasted spark vs sequential ignition settings are somewhere else and that is just asking how many teeth on a full cycle, which on a non vvti 2jz would be 24.
I would do some reading or ask on that forum if anyone else has the basic settings, cause I know that the rising edge is wrong based on science and experience, but lots of people set it like that anyways and experience slight timing drift.
You probably won't mess much up cranking and trying to start it with the wrong settings, but I would caution you as settings like these, along with coil phasing teeth etc.. if not correct can cause lots of damage if/when the engine gets running fast enough.
Also as a note, when you flipped the middle 2 on the distributor, I think you were flipping TDC 1 and TDC 6 outputs. I am not sure what way you have it wired anymore, but it is generally easier to stick with using tdc1.
You can only use rising edge reliably with hall effect sensors that produce a square wave, even then falling is more reliable.
You should have 24 teeth on a full engine cycle.
Gte is 12 tooth wheel on crank times 2 turns of the crank = 24 tooth wheel on the NA distributor for 1 cam turn (which is 2 turns of the crank).
So both setups put out 24 teeth for one full cycle, with a trigger at TDC#1 (when the first tooth starts) and a trigger at TDC#6 (half way through the cycle tooth 12 ish).
I am not sure what number that ecu is looking for in the teeth box, if it is talking about total number of teeth of a cycle or just the number on the crank wheel as it would be on the crank.
If it is the total number of teeth in a cycle for 6 cylinders, then it should be 24. IF it is just for one rotation, then it would be 12 but for 3 cylinders?? not really sure how this ecu is setup.
Generally with the aem's ive worked on fuel teeth should be in regards to 24 teeth, and if you are setup for wasted spark, ignition teeth can be 12 that repeats its cycle (so you setup 3 coils and it repeats), or you set it up for 24 teeth also and you have values in coils 1-6. That last part depends on how many coil outputs you have and how you have it wired up.
Since I don't see a separate fuel and ignition teeth box, that number of teeth box that has 12 in it above, *could be* asking for total number of teeth and could need to be 24 ( I am not sure not familiar with this ecu).
I would guess that the wasted spark vs sequential ignition settings are somewhere else and that is just asking how many teeth on a full cycle, which on a non vvti 2jz would be 24.
I would do some reading or ask on that forum if anyone else has the basic settings, cause I know that the rising edge is wrong based on science and experience, but lots of people set it like that anyways and experience slight timing drift.
You probably won't mess much up cranking and trying to start it with the wrong settings, but I would caution you as settings like these, along with coil phasing teeth etc.. if not correct can cause lots of damage if/when the engine gets running fast enough.
Also as a note, when you flipped the middle 2 on the distributor, I think you were flipping TDC 1 and TDC 6 outputs. I am not sure what way you have it wired anymore, but it is generally easier to stick with using tdc1.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-27-19 at 01:28 PM.
09-27-19, 01:27 PM
#580
Advanced
I am not sure those settings are correct. For sure all the triggers are falling edge, so your secondary trigger should be updated to falling edge.
You can only use rising edge reliably with hall effect sensors that produce a square wave, even then falling is more reliable.
You should have 24 teeth on a full engine cycle.
Gte is 12 tooth wheel on crank times 2 turns of the crank = 24 tooth wheel on the NA distributor for 1 cam turn (which is 2 turns of the crank).
So both setups put out 24 teeth for one full cycle, with a trigger at TDC#1 (when the first tooth starts) and a trigger at TDC#6 (half way through the cycle tooth 12 ish).
So a trigger wheel on the crank has half the teeth of the trigger wheel on the distributor, which is not the right number of teeth for a full engine cycle (2 engine revolutions).
So fuel teeth should be in regards to 24 teeth, and if you are setup for wasted spark, ignition teeth can be 12 that repeats its cycle (so you setup 3 coils and it repeats), or you set it up for 24 teeth also and you have values in coils 1-6.
That last part depends on how many coil outputs you have and how you have it wired up.
Since I don't see a separate fuel and ignition teeth box, that number of teeth box that has 12 in it above, is probably asking for total number of teeth and should probably be 24.
I would guess that the wasted spark vs sequential ignition settings are somewhere else and that is just asking how many teeth on a full cycle, which on a non vvti 2jz would be 24.
You can only use rising edge reliably with hall effect sensors that produce a square wave, even then falling is more reliable.
You should have 24 teeth on a full engine cycle.
Gte is 12 tooth wheel on crank times 2 turns of the crank = 24 tooth wheel on the NA distributor for 1 cam turn (which is 2 turns of the crank).
So both setups put out 24 teeth for one full cycle, with a trigger at TDC#1 (when the first tooth starts) and a trigger at TDC#6 (half way through the cycle tooth 12 ish).
So a trigger wheel on the crank has half the teeth of the trigger wheel on the distributor, which is not the right number of teeth for a full engine cycle (2 engine revolutions).
So fuel teeth should be in regards to 24 teeth, and if you are setup for wasted spark, ignition teeth can be 12 that repeats its cycle (so you setup 3 coils and it repeats), or you set it up for 24 teeth also and you have values in coils 1-6.
That last part depends on how many coil outputs you have and how you have it wired up.
Since I don't see a separate fuel and ignition teeth box, that number of teeth box that has 12 in it above, is probably asking for total number of teeth and should probably be 24.
I would guess that the wasted spark vs sequential ignition settings are somewhere else and that is just asking how many teeth on a full cycle, which on a non vvti 2jz would be 24.
seems like everyones tunes ive looked at have similar trigger settings. We tested all of the falling trigger combinations the last time and found this to be best for scope output.
I believe this is how my ignition events are setup:
that does make sense since im wasted spark, i only have 3 ignition outputs and 3 injector phases configured.
I can upload my tune to drive later if you want to look at it, the ecumaster software is free to download.
09-27-19, 01:34 PM
#581
the plot thickens. injectors should still be sequential, which could likely be a big part of the issue. you should have all 6 injectors on separate outputs.
the only thing that should be repeating or sharing is the coils since they are wasted spark.
So assuming everything else is correct (Which we are not sure teeth wise), when it comes time to inject for cylinders 4-6, you would be spraying into 1-3 again then (I dont see the settings above for injection just going off what you said).
You sure your buddy knows how to set it up? unless they have started an actual 2jz on this ecu before, to set up everything right takes a fair amount of understanding everything.
I don't know what outputs you have which cylinders tied to, but it generally looks like its setup for wasted spark, so maybe on the other page if you leave it 12 teeth, then it could be 3 cyl, and you only need values in ignition events 1-3.
If you put it to 24 teeth and 6 cylinders, then it should look up the map you just posted and use ignition events 1-6 (where you have it set to repeat for 4-6).
At least from what you showed me that is what I would think is going on. But reading the manual on the tooth setup might help.
I don't want to give you advice that would mess up your engine, but I can tell you that it looks off to me at a glance and shold be looked into more.
post up the injection settings when you get a chance. Im pretty slammed till next week with stuff, but if you are still having issue then I'll download it and take a deeper look.
the only thing that should be repeating or sharing is the coils since they are wasted spark.
So assuming everything else is correct (Which we are not sure teeth wise), when it comes time to inject for cylinders 4-6, you would be spraying into 1-3 again then (I dont see the settings above for injection just going off what you said).
You sure your buddy knows how to set it up? unless they have started an actual 2jz on this ecu before, to set up everything right takes a fair amount of understanding everything.
I don't know what outputs you have which cylinders tied to, but it generally looks like its setup for wasted spark, so maybe on the other page if you leave it 12 teeth, then it could be 3 cyl, and you only need values in ignition events 1-3.
If you put it to 24 teeth and 6 cylinders, then it should look up the map you just posted and use ignition events 1-6 (where you have it set to repeat for 4-6).
At least from what you showed me that is what I would think is going on. But reading the manual on the tooth setup might help.
I don't want to give you advice that would mess up your engine, but I can tell you that it looks off to me at a glance and shold be looked into more.
post up the injection settings when you get a chance. Im pretty slammed till next week with stuff, but if you are still having issue then I'll download it and take a deeper look.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-27-19 at 01:42 PM.
09-27-19, 01:41 PM
#582
Advanced
the plot thickens. injectors should still be sequential, which could likely be a big part of the issue. you should have all 6 injectors on separate outputs.
the only thing that should be repeating or sharing is the coils since they are wasted spark.
So assuming everything else is correct (Which we are not sure teeth wise), when it comes time to inject for cylinders 4-6, you are spraying into 1-3 again.
You sure your buddy knows how to set it up? unless they have started an actual 2jz on this ecu before, to set up everything right takes a fair amount of understanding everything.
the only thing that should be repeating or sharing is the coils since they are wasted spark.
So assuming everything else is correct (Which we are not sure teeth wise), when it comes time to inject for cylinders 4-6, you are spraying into 1-3 again.
You sure your buddy knows how to set it up? unless they have started an actual 2jz on this ecu before, to set up everything right takes a fair amount of understanding everything.
I'm literally just trying to get it started and work those bugs out so i can hit up either sound performance or bend (remote tune) and get a real tune. My buddy eluded that i would need to replace my knock sensors with bosche units as well due to this standalone.
09-27-19, 01:50 PM
#583
I haven't heard of anyone having to replace knock sensors for a standalone. sounds kind of silly to me but could be possible.
I have heard of the crank sensor needing a resistor sometimes if the ecu can't pick it up, more so when you are running dual ecu's but some aftermarket ones are pretty bad at picking them up also.
Sounds more like the fuel settings then, I am going to take a wild guess here and say that your friend can't probably look at his map because the tuner locked it out, otherwise you would have copied settings over and made some tweaks?
or is that what you guys did and it went horribly wrong?
Fuel teeth has to be 24 with 6 cylinders or the car wont run. if there is no separate fuel teeth and no separate spark teeth, then it need to be the 24 and 6 and you do the repeating in the ignition section.
I only know all this stuff cause I went through what you are going through, and no one would tell me it so I spent time learning it, including why a VR sensor should always be falling edge.
There is a scientific reason why the falling edge is more accurate with regards to timing drift as rpm's increase, as well as being less likely to fire off a coil due to a noise spike (looks like a rising edge).
In a perfect world on a perfect dyno, you can run it either way, but if you want to run it the right way, then it is always falling edge.
There are some times when the teeth are cut a certain way which can affect it, but generally on the newer stuff its cut in a way you could even pick up off the other edge.
Some day after its all working great, try rising edge and check your timing drift at 4-5k rpms (what the ecu says vs what the crank says with the light). Then do the same thing on falling edge.
I have heard of the crank sensor needing a resistor sometimes if the ecu can't pick it up, more so when you are running dual ecu's but some aftermarket ones are pretty bad at picking them up also.
Sounds more like the fuel settings then, I am going to take a wild guess here and say that your friend can't probably look at his map because the tuner locked it out, otherwise you would have copied settings over and made some tweaks?
or is that what you guys did and it went horribly wrong?
Fuel teeth has to be 24 with 6 cylinders or the car wont run. if there is no separate fuel teeth and no separate spark teeth, then it need to be the 24 and 6 and you do the repeating in the ignition section.
I only know all this stuff cause I went through what you are going through, and no one would tell me it so I spent time learning it, including why a VR sensor should always be falling edge.
There is a scientific reason why the falling edge is more accurate with regards to timing drift as rpm's increase, as well as being less likely to fire off a coil due to a noise spike (looks like a rising edge).
In a perfect world on a perfect dyno, you can run it either way, but if you want to run it the right way, then it is always falling edge.
There are some times when the teeth are cut a certain way which can affect it, but generally on the newer stuff its cut in a way you could even pick up off the other edge.
Some day after its all working great, try rising edge and check your timing drift at 4-5k rpms (what the ecu says vs what the crank says with the light). Then do the same thing on falling edge.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-27-19 at 01:55 PM.
09-27-19, 01:54 PM
#584
Advanced
he's setup a few of these cars before for others, his is on E85 or we probably could have done that, i imagine all of the fueling and timing is vastly different for that setup.
Okay so i should have injectors in sequential, repeated ignition events, 24/6 tooth counts and falling edge on both. I can give that a try with everything disconnected and get a scope of the triggers and see how it looks.
I was as well confused by the knock sensor thing as they were display data.
Okay so i should have injectors in sequential, repeated ignition events, 24/6 tooth counts and falling edge on both. I can give that a try with everything disconnected and get a scope of the triggers and see how it looks.
I was as well confused by the knock sensor thing as they were display data.
09-27-19, 02:03 PM
#585
settings would be vastly different but the cam and crank triggers would be the same unless he has a vvti setup which is a 36-2 trigger wheel (lets not even get into that right now).
the main things that would be different are timing and fuel maps, and the ignition if it is setup to be sequential.
I think that sounds right, but maybe run that by someone more familiar with that ecu or if there is a help menu see if it clarifies what teeth it is talking about (1 cycle, or 1 revolution). I am guessing it is a cycle.
The knock sensor might come down to that ecu or tuner having a baseline map for that specific sensor.
When I got mine tuned on the aem the first time ever, the tuner set all the timing values really conservative and did a few pulls to establish a baseline knock voltage, and then set that into the settings.
From that, once you start tuning you look at the difference between the knock volts and the baseline.
I am guessing in this situation it is easier to grab a sensor that you know the basline values for? Or there is a more sensitive type of sensor out there they want to use.
Hard to say without reading more about the ecu, talking to the tuner, etc..
Alot of this stuff is the reason I dislike using standalones on daily drivers. If you think it's tricky now, just wait till you get to the driveability part etc.. but for a weekend warrior it is possible to enjoy it.
If you tow it to sound performance, they would probably knock it out for you, but sounds like you are pretty close. with the right settings it shouldn't be that hard to start until its freezing outside.
the main things that would be different are timing and fuel maps, and the ignition if it is setup to be sequential.
I think that sounds right, but maybe run that by someone more familiar with that ecu or if there is a help menu see if it clarifies what teeth it is talking about (1 cycle, or 1 revolution). I am guessing it is a cycle.
The knock sensor might come down to that ecu or tuner having a baseline map for that specific sensor.
When I got mine tuned on the aem the first time ever, the tuner set all the timing values really conservative and did a few pulls to establish a baseline knock voltage, and then set that into the settings.
From that, once you start tuning you look at the difference between the knock volts and the baseline.
I am guessing in this situation it is easier to grab a sensor that you know the basline values for? Or there is a more sensitive type of sensor out there they want to use.
Hard to say without reading more about the ecu, talking to the tuner, etc..
Alot of this stuff is the reason I dislike using standalones on daily drivers. If you think it's tricky now, just wait till you get to the driveability part etc.. but for a weekend warrior it is possible to enjoy it.
If you tow it to sound performance, they would probably knock it out for you, but sounds like you are pretty close. with the right settings it shouldn't be that hard to start until its freezing outside.