NA-T Questions?? Ask the Guru
08-16-20, 04:52 PM
#797
This is a thread for all my fellow Na-T people who have those random na-t questions they need answered like yesterday.
GTE peeps have too many threads already, this is Na-T related only.
I get tons of PM's for random Na-T questions and I find myself repeating lots of answers.
First, I am flattered yes thanks but after a while its a bunch of the same answers over and over again.
I will likely refer you to post here when you PM me if I think it will help others also.
If you want it to be anonymous I can post it without your screen name, but seriously no question is too easy when it comes to Na-T so just rip the band-aid off already.
Those of you who have asked me something via PM know I try and answer everyone back, so lets just get the common questions in one place on the forum and that will help out everyone (including my free time, thanks)
So ask it here and everyone can see the answers that I magically @%#@ out... seriously its magical.
Topics include Basic or advanced NA-T questions, FFIM, Fuel, ECU's, Tuning, theoretical physics (just checking if you are actually reading), catch can, charcoal canister, ACIS, whatever you can think of that remotely relates to Na-T.
And if you can stump the Na-T Guru... you will earn the title of Na-T Apprentice (or whatever you want really)
So things don't get crazy out of hand, I ask that you post your question with as much detail as possible, pics or videos are always good too if needed for clarity.
The quality of the answer will be equal to the quality of the question
GTE peeps have too many threads already, this is Na-T related only.
I get tons of PM's for random Na-T questions and I find myself repeating lots of answers.
First, I am flattered yes thanks but after a while its a bunch of the same answers over and over again.
I will likely refer you to post here when you PM me if I think it will help others also.
If you want it to be anonymous I can post it without your screen name, but seriously no question is too easy when it comes to Na-T so just rip the band-aid off already.
Those of you who have asked me something via PM know I try and answer everyone back, so lets just get the common questions in one place on the forum and that will help out everyone (including my free time, thanks)
So ask it here and everyone can see the answers that I magically @%#@ out... seriously its magical.
Topics include Basic or advanced NA-T questions, FFIM, Fuel, ECU's, Tuning, theoretical physics (just checking if you are actually reading), catch can, charcoal canister, ACIS, whatever you can think of that remotely relates to Na-T.
And if you can stump the Na-T Guru... you will earn the title of Na-T Apprentice (or whatever you want really)
So things don't get crazy out of hand, I ask that you post your question with as much detail as possible, pics or videos are always good too if needed for clarity.
The quality of the answer will be equal to the quality of the question
08-17-20, 09:00 AM
#798
make sure the coils are sitting on there good, vvti right? make sure the leads aren't pinched to the head anywhere.
You should probably be at like a 7 heat level plug, try the bkr7eix gapped down to .032 if still misfiing try .028, you shouldn't have to go lower than .024-.026 or something is up.
I have a question. So I recently just start my Na T build and I was curious about the wastegate dump tube.. should I run one? My plans are only run about 5psi and stock ECU for the mean time until I get my money up. But I want to get my foot in the door with the boost.
So basically as soon as you get on boost with a 5psi spring your wastegate will be shooting out exhaust gasses, and the higher rpm's the more it will bypass till it might not be able to and the boost could rise higher.
the stock ecu doesn't like to see any boost, so running less isn't going to do you any favors, especially since you will be on the wastegate the entire time.
Na-t is difficult enough as it is, you don't want to spend all that time and have a car that runs terribly, which is what it will do.
Save up and have a full ecu plan, and a good turbo kit, and then only would I even consider bolting any of it to the car... you will be in for a huge headache on your line of thinking.
The wastegate you can just run a shorty pipe to the ground like in the kit, but best is to hook it up to the exhaust on low boost cause you will be on it the entire time you are boosting and it can get loud and smelly as it can get back through the a/c if you have fresh air on.
08-17-20, 09:08 AM
#799
Advanced
That is an odd one, make sure you don't have any cylinder specific settings on like fuel trims or ignition or even dwell.. they shouldn't be on in a basemap though normally speaking as there are exceptions.
make sure the coils are sitting on there good, vvti right? make sure the leads aren't pinched to the head anywhere.
You should probably be at like a 7 heat level plug, try the bkr7eix gapped down to .032 if still misfiing try .028, you shouldn't have to go lower than .024-.026 or something is up.
The less boost you run the more you are working the wastegate cause it lets the exhaust pressure bypass to maintain that boost level.
So basically as soon as you get on boost with a 5psi spring your wastegate will be shooting out exhaust gasses, and the higher rpm's the more it will bypass till it might not be able to and the boost could rise higher.
the stock ecu doesn't like to see any boost, so running less isn't going to do you any favors, especially since you will be on the wastegate the entire time.
Na-t is difficult enough as it is, you don't want to spend all that time and have a car that runs terribly, which is what it will do.
Save up and have a full ecu plan, and a good turbo kit, and then only would I even consider bolting any of it to the car... you will be in for a huge headache on your line of thinking.
The wastegate you can just run a shorty pipe to the ground like in the kit, but best is to hook it up to the exhaust on low boost cause you will be on it the entire time you are boosting and it can get loud and smelly as it can get back through the a/c if you have fresh air on.
make sure the coils are sitting on there good, vvti right? make sure the leads aren't pinched to the head anywhere.
You should probably be at like a 7 heat level plug, try the bkr7eix gapped down to .032 if still misfiing try .028, you shouldn't have to go lower than .024-.026 or something is up.
The less boost you run the more you are working the wastegate cause it lets the exhaust pressure bypass to maintain that boost level.
So basically as soon as you get on boost with a 5psi spring your wastegate will be shooting out exhaust gasses, and the higher rpm's the more it will bypass till it might not be able to and the boost could rise higher.
the stock ecu doesn't like to see any boost, so running less isn't going to do you any favors, especially since you will be on the wastegate the entire time.
Na-t is difficult enough as it is, you don't want to spend all that time and have a car that runs terribly, which is what it will do.
Save up and have a full ecu plan, and a good turbo kit, and then only would I even consider bolting any of it to the car... you will be in for a huge headache on your line of thinking.
The wastegate you can just run a shorty pipe to the ground like in the kit, but best is to hook it up to the exhaust on low boost cause you will be on it the entire time you are boosting and it can get loud and smelly as it can get back through the a/c if you have fresh air on.
I plan on swapping the 3 & 6 injectors to different holes and see if it follows, if it doesn't that points me towards the ignition system. I also have a spare IS300 engine so i could try and swap some coils around and see if it clears up.
Update:
Swapped #3&6 injector's forward a hole, and swapped coils from the is300 engine i have, issue still persists to the 3&6 spark plugs. Might try and turn the dwell up a little bit before going to a different coil setup, currently my dwell is 2.4 @ 14.
Last edited by silentkill; 08-17-20 at 05:52 PM.
08-18-20, 09:57 AM
#800
what are your in boost AFR's looking like and how much boost are you at now? check the injector clips also.
The odd thing is that 1 and 6 share a coil and 3 and 4 share a coil, so a coil issue with 3 or 6 you would think you would see it on 1 and 4 also but those look fine.
maybe its a bit of oil from worn valve stem seals? did you put new ones on that head when it was out? usually you would see a lot more oil on the threads etc..
It could be something in the settings also, not familiar with that ecu but also nothing jumping out at me being those cylinders as they are right in the middle of the firing order so should be ok.
I would almost do a quick compression test on those 2 cylinders and make sure there are no compression issues on them, maybe something went wrong on the last head install.
The odd thing is that 1 and 6 share a coil and 3 and 4 share a coil, so a coil issue with 3 or 6 you would think you would see it on 1 and 4 also but those look fine.
maybe its a bit of oil from worn valve stem seals? did you put new ones on that head when it was out? usually you would see a lot more oil on the threads etc..
It could be something in the settings also, not familiar with that ecu but also nothing jumping out at me being those cylinders as they are right in the middle of the firing order so should be ok.
I would almost do a quick compression test on those 2 cylinders and make sure there are no compression issues on them, maybe something went wrong on the last head install.
08-18-20, 10:11 AM
#801
Advanced
what are your in boost AFR's looking like and how much boost are you at now? check the injector clips also.
The odd thing is that 1 and 6 share a coil and 3 and 4 share a coil, so a coil issue with 3 or 6 you would think you would see it on 1 and 4 also but those look fine.
maybe its a bit of oil from worn valve stem seals? did you put new ones on that head when it was out? usually you would see a lot more oil on the threads etc..
It could be something in the settings also, not familiar with that ecu but also nothing jumping out at me being those cylinders as they are right in the middle of the firing order so should be ok.
I would almost do a quick compression test on those 2 cylinders and make sure there are no compression issues on them, maybe something went wrong on the last head install.
The odd thing is that 1 and 6 share a coil and 3 and 4 share a coil, so a coil issue with 3 or 6 you would think you would see it on 1 and 4 also but those look fine.
maybe its a bit of oil from worn valve stem seals? did you put new ones on that head when it was out? usually you would see a lot more oil on the threads etc..
It could be something in the settings also, not familiar with that ecu but also nothing jumping out at me being those cylinders as they are right in the middle of the firing order so should be ok.
I would almost do a quick compression test on those 2 cylinders and make sure there are no compression issues on them, maybe something went wrong on the last head install.
I do think i have a couple leaky stem seals but i think its 2 & 6, i noticed a bit of wetness that doesn't evaporate on 2 & 6 piston every time the plugs are out.
I did not change the stem seals no, (probably should have lol)
My tuner seems to think its either mechanical or electrical (ignition system)
me swapping around injectors confirms fuel system should be alright.
Compression test on 3 & 6 yield 180+ PSI when the engine is warm.
Maybe the wasted spark doesn't play well with the standalone with no igniter. My buddy did tell me my dwell settings are a fair bit low (2.4 @ 14, he recommended 2.8) but you'd think i would see the symptom on all cylinders if that was the case?
Update:
it's fouling all the time, not just under boost. I tried upping the dwell settings this morning to 2.8 @ 14 and it is still fouling.
Drove it to work yesterday and didn't boost at all and it still fouled just as bad.
Last edited by silentkill; 08-19-20 at 08:59 AM.
08-19-20, 09:35 AM
#802
I think you just blew what was left of your valve seals, you always want to do those when the head is out order the viton seals.
the small amount of oil can make a mess on the pistons and build carbon, then you get pre ignition and other stuff happening.
I wouldn't tear the head off just yet though maybe confirm to see if it is oil, like start it at night then leave it sitting and pull plugs in the morning or something and shine a light down there.
If you get the "Toyo tool" you can do it from on top just need to be careful. everyone should have one, its way easier than the whole c clamp style one the requires the head to come off. quick way is to set to tdc, pull the tensioner from below, slide the belt off and clamp it out of the way so it doesn't fall, get the cam gears and cams out and then you can start the real job.. if that is the issue of course.
It could be something else, just have had carbon issues a time or 2 before from even just a combo of a rich mixture and old seals that looked like that but worse it was up the threads also on the plugs.
On the running without an ignitor issue, I am not sure I would put that in the hands of the standalone to do, once again the toyota ignitor works for big hp and is cheap so I would try and eliminate that in the future. I really don't know of anyone who has run them ignitorless even when supported by the ecu and tried to set all the parameters for them in programming like that, normally the standalones you can change the dwell settings but the ignitor is still in the loop doing its part and likely overriding a fair bit of that.. so it could have to do with that but it could also be completely fine I don't have experience with that to tell you unfortunately.
the small amount of oil can make a mess on the pistons and build carbon, then you get pre ignition and other stuff happening.
I wouldn't tear the head off just yet though maybe confirm to see if it is oil, like start it at night then leave it sitting and pull plugs in the morning or something and shine a light down there.
If you get the "Toyo tool" you can do it from on top just need to be careful. everyone should have one, its way easier than the whole c clamp style one the requires the head to come off. quick way is to set to tdc, pull the tensioner from below, slide the belt off and clamp it out of the way so it doesn't fall, get the cam gears and cams out and then you can start the real job.. if that is the issue of course.
It could be something else, just have had carbon issues a time or 2 before from even just a combo of a rich mixture and old seals that looked like that but worse it was up the threads also on the plugs.
On the running without an ignitor issue, I am not sure I would put that in the hands of the standalone to do, once again the toyota ignitor works for big hp and is cheap so I would try and eliminate that in the future. I really don't know of anyone who has run them ignitorless even when supported by the ecu and tried to set all the parameters for them in programming like that, normally the standalones you can change the dwell settings but the ignitor is still in the loop doing its part and likely overriding a fair bit of that.. so it could have to do with that but it could also be completely fine I don't have experience with that to tell you unfortunately.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 08-19-20 at 09:44 AM.
08-19-20, 09:46 AM
#803
Advanced
I think you just blew what was left of your valve seals, you always want to do those when the head is out order the viton seals.
the small amount of oil can make a mess on the pistons and build carbon, then you get pre ignition and other stuff happening.
I wouldn't tear the head off just yet though maybe confirm to see if it is oil, like start it at night then leave it sitting and pull plugs in the morning or something and shine a light down there.
If you get the toyota tool you can do it from on top just need to be careful. everyone should have one, its way easier than the whole c clamp style one the requires the head to come off. quick way is to set to tdc, pull the tensioner from below, slide the belt off and clamp it out of the way so it doesn't fell, get the cam gears and cams out and then you can start the real job.. if that is the issue of course.
It could be something else, just have had carbon issues a time or 2 before from even just a combo of a rich mixture and old seals that looked like that but worse it was up the threads also on the plugs.
On the running without an ignitor issue, I am not sure I would put that in the hands of the standalone to do, once again the toyota ignitor works for big hp and is cheap so I would try and eliminate that in the future. I really don't know of anyone who has run them ignitorless even when supported by the ecu and tried to set all the parameters for them in programming like that, normally the standalones you can change the dwell settings but the ignitor is still in the loop doing its part and likely overriding a fair bit of that.. so it could have to do with that but it could also be completely fine I don't have experience with that to tell you unfortunately.
the small amount of oil can make a mess on the pistons and build carbon, then you get pre ignition and other stuff happening.
I wouldn't tear the head off just yet though maybe confirm to see if it is oil, like start it at night then leave it sitting and pull plugs in the morning or something and shine a light down there.
If you get the toyota tool you can do it from on top just need to be careful. everyone should have one, its way easier than the whole c clamp style one the requires the head to come off. quick way is to set to tdc, pull the tensioner from below, slide the belt off and clamp it out of the way so it doesn't fell, get the cam gears and cams out and then you can start the real job.. if that is the issue of course.
It could be something else, just have had carbon issues a time or 2 before from even just a combo of a rich mixture and old seals that looked like that but worse it was up the threads also on the plugs.
On the running without an ignitor issue, I am not sure I would put that in the hands of the standalone to do, once again the toyota ignitor works for big hp and is cheap so I would try and eliminate that in the future. I really don't know of anyone who has run them ignitorless even when supported by the ecu and tried to set all the parameters for them in programming like that, normally the standalones you can change the dwell settings but the ignitor is still in the loop doing its part and likely overriding a fair bit of that.. so it could have to do with that but it could also be completely fine I don't have experience with that to tell you unfortunately.
out of curiosity is this the tool you speak of:
I've worked on valve train's on small blocks before but never Japanese inline's lol saw that used here when i looked it up the other day:
I did notice a few times when pulling the plugs out, that cylinders 2 & 6 had some liquid on top of the piston that looked like oil, i assume it was oil because i left the plugs out for hours and it didnt evaporate.
Just ran it this morning on higher dwell with no luck so i'll pull the plugs out and inspect if theres any oil leak down later when i get home.
wouldn't be making horsepower without wrenching eh? haha
update: checked after work, wetness on piston 1, 2, and 6.
Last edited by silentkill; 08-19-20 at 05:30 PM.
08-20-20, 11:50 AM
#804
Caught me before my edit, the product is actually called Toyotool and it has removal and install on each end of the same tool you just swap it around.
The toyotool can also be used to install the valve stem seals, but I usually just use a socket that fits snug.
The tool you posted looks like it does the same thing just is 2 seperate tools
the toyotool looks like this:
Lots of ways to do it but that one has been around for a long time. Funny I am used to these and had to learn to do it on my small block with the fork looking tool.
my 350 had near perfect compression and under 3% leakdown on all cylinders but smoked like crazy (especially bad on sidepiped car), all the seals were cooked when I got in there.
Now it runs nice and clean, but that was my least favorite valve stem replacement so far I would say.
You might have the oil issue then, and its just worse on some cylinders now but if that is the cause it will get worse faster at this point, especially seeing boost now.
It could be leaky injectors after power down but with the swapping them around and them being new it is less likely but wouldn't rule it out completely.
I would get the seals changed sooner than later, or you might have to pull the head off for cleaning the pistons or trying to get it out another way (misting water can help steam clean the cylinder of light deposits but alot of water is bad for your engine obviously).
If your valves are good you can do it on the car with pressurizing the cylinder, or the synthetic rope trick.
I have only done pressurizing the cylinder myself, it works but you have to be careful not to bump the stem down in the process, lined up right etc..
The toyotool can also be used to install the valve stem seals, but I usually just use a socket that fits snug.
The tool you posted looks like it does the same thing just is 2 seperate tools
the toyotool looks like this:
Lots of ways to do it but that one has been around for a long time. Funny I am used to these and had to learn to do it on my small block with the fork looking tool.
my 350 had near perfect compression and under 3% leakdown on all cylinders but smoked like crazy (especially bad on sidepiped car), all the seals were cooked when I got in there.
Now it runs nice and clean, but that was my least favorite valve stem replacement so far I would say.
You might have the oil issue then, and its just worse on some cylinders now but if that is the cause it will get worse faster at this point, especially seeing boost now.
It could be leaky injectors after power down but with the swapping them around and them being new it is less likely but wouldn't rule it out completely.
I would get the seals changed sooner than later, or you might have to pull the head off for cleaning the pistons or trying to get it out another way (misting water can help steam clean the cylinder of light deposits but alot of water is bad for your engine obviously).
If your valves are good you can do it on the car with pressurizing the cylinder, or the synthetic rope trick.
I have only done pressurizing the cylinder myself, it works but you have to be careful not to bump the stem down in the process, lined up right etc..
Last edited by Ali SC3; 08-20-20 at 12:00 PM.
08-20-20, 12:10 PM
#805
Advanced
Well i guess my next step is getting a leak down tester on it and see what comes of that.
Weird that its not smoking visually, kinda hard to tell with only the down pipe.
It definitely smelling like oil now idling, driving, and when the plugs are out i get a hint of it.
Maybe running this head on the 'cursed' no oil pressure engine burned up the seals.
Weird that its not smoking visually, kinda hard to tell with only the down pipe.
It definitely smelling like oil now idling, driving, and when the plugs are out i get a hint of it.
Maybe running this head on the 'cursed' no oil pressure engine burned up the seals.
08-21-20, 05:51 AM
#806
Pole Position
Well i guess my next step is getting a leak down tester on it and see what comes of that.
Weird that its not smoking visually, kinda hard to tell with only the down pipe.
It definitely smelling like oil now idling, driving, and when the plugs are out i get a hint of it.
Maybe running this head on the 'cursed' no oil pressure engine burned up the seals.
Weird that its not smoking visually, kinda hard to tell with only the down pipe.
It definitely smelling like oil now idling, driving, and when the plugs are out i get a hint of it.
Maybe running this head on the 'cursed' no oil pressure engine burned up the seals.
08-21-20, 08:04 AM
#807
Advanced
Leak down tester should be here in a couple days, ill fill you guys in on results.
08-21-20, 08:23 AM
#808
You won't see it on the leakdown if the valves are good, the seals are above them so they only pour oil into the cylinders with the valves cracked open and then the other cylinders when you turn it over and those valves open.
They were probably on their way out, somewhere around 150k they tend to send smoke signals, I just change them out for insurance when I have the head off.
They were probably on their way out, somewhere around 150k they tend to send smoke signals, I just change them out for insurance when I have the head off.
08-21-20, 08:25 AM
#809
Advanced
True but i guess worth the effort of checking engine health at this point. I think i will likely end up taking the head to a shop for a refresh. Maybe ill upgrade to 1ZZ coils while its out.