Methanol with MAP ECU
09-12-16, 09:43 AM
#1
Methanol with MAP ECU
I am seriously thinking about going with a meth injection kit on my 1JZ with MAPECU3. I currently have 440cc injectors, but have USDM 550's on deck. Would love to add the water meth mix for increasing boostability and lowering intake air and exhaust gas temps. The kits seem fairly straight forward to install, so no worries there. I am aware of all of the safeguards that you should incorporate to prevent a blown motor and will be using all of the ones available in the kit that I end up purchasing.
My main thing is that I have never touched the timing map in my MAP ECU. Have never gone above 15psi and run 93, so never had to. I understand that one of the advantages of going with meth injection is increased resistance to detonation and ability to advance timing. So, my question is how do you "dial in" the timing chart? Do you just advance the timing until just before knock is detected throughout the whole chart? If anyone has a meth kit on a JZ with MAPECU, what is the typical timing advance that one could expect?
My main thing is that I have never touched the timing map in my MAP ECU. Have never gone above 15psi and run 93, so never had to. I understand that one of the advantages of going with meth injection is increased resistance to detonation and ability to advance timing. So, my question is how do you "dial in" the timing chart? Do you just advance the timing until just before knock is detected throughout the whole chart? If anyone has a meth kit on a JZ with MAPECU, what is the typical timing advance that one could expect?
09-12-16, 11:03 AM
#2
I thought you could only pull timing with those piggybacks as they just delay the crank sensor value to the ecu, was not aware you could advance the timing but the online thing says its possible so that is interesting, I wouldn't push it too far though. the good news though is that the ecu's tend to start out high on timing and pull timing with knock, so if you run methanol all the time just reset the ecu and it wont be pulling any timing with methanol in the mix, so you will naturally have a little more power. you ca bump up the base timing a hair if you are na-t via the distributor.
09-12-16, 11:52 AM
#3
yeah Ali, the MAP ECU actually intercepts the ignition signals as inputs, then sends them back out to the coils as outputs, so you can do whatever you want with them (on top of the base being sent out by the stock ecu I believe). I am curious how much timing I can add safely because I don't have an additional knock sensor connected right into the MAP ECU. But, I would imagine that in the event that knock was present, that the stock ecu would pull that base timing back, hence pulling back the adjusted timing table in the MAP ECU. I will have to confirm this on the MAP ECU forum though. Thanks!
09-12-16, 12:02 PM
#4
You would only be enabling meth injection in boost so adding a couple degrees should be ok as long as you are spraying and don't run out.
I would say just reset the ecu and try it at first, the ecu will naturally not pull anything which you should feel the difference. Without it I can guarantee its pulling some timing in boost, its just setup that way. I want to say the gte ecu starts out with most of the advance and every pull it detects knock it backs the timing more and more.. which is why sometimes it will feel slow until you reset the ecu and all of a sudden it feels like you just picked up power, without changing anything else, at least that is what mine feels like.
I would say just reset the ecu and try it at first, the ecu will naturally not pull anything which you should feel the difference. Without it I can guarantee its pulling some timing in boost, its just setup that way. I want to say the gte ecu starts out with most of the advance and every pull it detects knock it backs the timing more and more.. which is why sometimes it will feel slow until you reset the ecu and all of a sudden it feels like you just picked up power, without changing anything else, at least that is what mine feels like.
09-12-16, 01:22 PM
#6
Yeah that's a good way of putting it. that's how the same ecu runs every gte engine all in different condition with different gas etc.. and how we can even use that ecu on a na-t without much fuss. its designed to learn what that particular motor is happy with, but if you need more advance than that then go to the map ecu map and add it in slowly or else you will just have the ecu pulling it back out.
09-12-16, 01:59 PM
#7
OK thanks Ali! Sounds like the oem ecu is very good at detonation prevention. I guess that's a good thing, because it sounds like I can't really mess anything up timing wise because the oem ecu will correct all of my mishaps. But, then again, it also sounds like you can't really tap the max potential of meth or e85 for that matter, as long as the oem ecu is in the picture. Otherwise it will pull timing pretty hard with the slightest knock. Does that sound about right?
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09-12-16, 03:03 PM
#8
Yes, its hard to mess up unless you blow the motor on the first pull 
Right, most people move to standalone when using alternate fuels.
Not too many people adding in extra timing with piggybacks, but about a decade ago when I was putting mine together there were lots of people running na-t's with methanol on stock compression, the methanol would be used so you wouldn't have to use a tt headgasket, and alot of them were on n/a ecu's with more timing anyways so it was a bandaid solution that could deliver quite a bit of power without taking the motor apart. I opted to open mine up and do a tt headgasket.
Even if you don't add in a bunch of extra timing, you will notice the cooling effect of the methanol and the ecu will do its thing.
If you want more than that you need to go standalone. there will be people who will tell you that you can pull the knock sensors from the oem ecu and monitor it and dial it in with the map ecu etc... do not listen to those people you will be buying a new shortblock sooner or later going that route. grab an aem ems or similar standalone for a little more coin and the difference will be night and day in power and consistency in wide open throttle. the rest all takes more tuning but you sort of cross a line where it will save you money from rebuilding your motor 10x down the road.
Right, most people move to standalone when using alternate fuels.
Not too many people adding in extra timing with piggybacks, but about a decade ago when I was putting mine together there were lots of people running na-t's with methanol on stock compression, the methanol would be used so you wouldn't have to use a tt headgasket, and alot of them were on n/a ecu's with more timing anyways so it was a bandaid solution that could deliver quite a bit of power without taking the motor apart. I opted to open mine up and do a tt headgasket.
Even if you don't add in a bunch of extra timing, you will notice the cooling effect of the methanol and the ecu will do its thing.
If you want more than that you need to go standalone. there will be people who will tell you that you can pull the knock sensors from the oem ecu and monitor it and dial it in with the map ecu etc... do not listen to those people you will be buying a new shortblock sooner or later going that route. grab an aem ems or similar standalone for a little more coin and the difference will be night and day in power and consistency in wide open throttle. the rest all takes more tuning but you sort of cross a line where it will save you money from rebuilding your motor 10x down the road.
09-12-16, 05:07 PM
#9
Great, thank you for your insight Ali! I think when the time comes, I will just do as you suggested and reset the ECU when I install the kit. Standalone is most likely in my future when I eventually give the S366 a try. If I like it, I will settle with that turbo forever and then pay the coin for standalone and tune
Keith
Keith
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