Forced Air Tech seems to be ready
09-03-03, 08:11 AM
#46
understand where you're comin from but I'll shed a bit of light. smaller shops cannot afford the same rates and coverage as a big shop chain. A claim Lexus files would shoot a small shops rates through the roof.....it wouldnt be worth it to them.
In a way, some are asking the 'mom-n-pop' store to compete with the Walmart down the street and that simply cannot happen. They simply cannot compete with the pure buying power and leverage that Walmart has.
im sure a lot of shops would like to 'compete' ...but they cant.
Liability: If a company has been in business long enough they'll realize that the day WILL come when someone wants to sue you for some reason or another. If they havent, then they havent been in business that long. They ask what type of cars you work on and what range of work you'll be doing...Statistics show that it tends to be from customers outside of your normal operating base.
Yes there are ways to protect yourself (personal property) from lawsuits but most are just little shops and the same rules wouldnt apply.
I just want people to understand that its not as 'cut n dry' as it seems
it's business
In a way, some are asking the 'mom-n-pop' store to compete with the Walmart down the street and that simply cannot happen. They simply cannot compete with the pure buying power and leverage that Walmart has.
im sure a lot of shops would like to 'compete' ...but they cant.
Liability: If a company has been in business long enough they'll realize that the day WILL come when someone wants to sue you for some reason or another. If they havent, then they havent been in business that long. They ask what type of cars you work on and what range of work you'll be doing...Statistics show that it tends to be from customers outside of your normal operating base.
Yes there are ways to protect yourself (personal property) from lawsuits but most are just little shops and the same rules wouldnt apply.
I just want people to understand that its not as 'cut n dry' as it seems
it's business
09-03-03, 09:15 AM
#47
Lexus Test Driver
Emerald, I hate to disagree with your analogy, but it's not because of liability that sometimes people get overcharged. It's simple knowledge or lack thereof.
All shops have to carry a minimum amount of liability insurance per their governing state. The rate is based on the number of claims made by that particular shop, not the amount. The amount of liability is set by the aforementioned minimum level, which is what most shops ONLY carry. i.e. If it's a million dollars, then they carry a million and not 2.
As for damaging a vehicle, the shop SHOULD be liable for fixing THEIR error. That has absolutely nothing to do with price. In the car repair business, prices not only have to be clearly posted when it refers to labor rates but also have to be quoted using some kind of standardized media. You either quote hourly rate x labor hours = price or you quote flat prices on services you regularly offer (tune-ups, oil changes, alignments, etc.) Either way the prices should only change due to the complexity of the project/repair, NOT the brand of the car (as far as labor is concerned). Parts prices are completely different, as we all know. Inflated prices may very well come from, and correctly so, from expensive parts which are directly tied into the car brand. Make sure you don't confuse the two.
If a shop is wanting to charge you higher prices than those posted without a clear logical reason for doing so, then it is simply price gouging. For example, if you are getting new tires put on your LEXUS....it should not cost a single cent more than what mounting tires costs to put on a HONDA. The tire prices may be totally different, but the LABOR to mount the tires should be equal. The mechanic is doing the same exact thing to both cars. It takes no more work to mount a tire on a LEXUS rim than it does a HONDA rim. I should know since I worked for SEARS for 6 years when I was in high school and college. Now, if you have aftermarket wheels or require special weights to balance the tire properly, then YES you should pay a little more because of the price of the additional PARTS is more. Same applies to oil changes, tune-ups, alignments, etc. The labor involved is pretty much the same as far as time is concerned as is any other car. Parts are more, but that should the only price difference.
Another thing to consider, which unfortunately I know from experience, is that shops don't carry insurance to cover your vehicle while in their care. Read down at the disclamer in small print at the bottom of most work orders as well as the signs strategically posted all around. The shop/dealer is NOT responsible for most damage that occurs while your car is in their custody. I know this because a very good friend of mine had his motorcycle in to a repair shop for repairs. The shop caught on fire with his motorcycle in it. It was badly damaged of course, and the shop was NOT required by law to carry insurance to fix it. It's called double imdemnity. You are responsible to carry your own insurance to cover for loses incurred while the vehicle is at an authorized facility. Check with your Insurance agent and see if I'm not correct. I did and was very surprised by the answers I got. Good stuff to know though.
I'm just sharing my experiences so you guys don't get caught off guard. Bottomline about the subject at hand is simple: (someone already said it) Know your own car that way it's harder to be taken advantage of.
All shops have to carry a minimum amount of liability insurance per their governing state. The rate is based on the number of claims made by that particular shop, not the amount. The amount of liability is set by the aforementioned minimum level, which is what most shops ONLY carry. i.e. If it's a million dollars, then they carry a million and not 2.
As for damaging a vehicle, the shop SHOULD be liable for fixing THEIR error. That has absolutely nothing to do with price. In the car repair business, prices not only have to be clearly posted when it refers to labor rates but also have to be quoted using some kind of standardized media. You either quote hourly rate x labor hours = price or you quote flat prices on services you regularly offer (tune-ups, oil changes, alignments, etc.) Either way the prices should only change due to the complexity of the project/repair, NOT the brand of the car (as far as labor is concerned). Parts prices are completely different, as we all know. Inflated prices may very well come from, and correctly so, from expensive parts which are directly tied into the car brand. Make sure you don't confuse the two.
If a shop is wanting to charge you higher prices than those posted without a clear logical reason for doing so, then it is simply price gouging. For example, if you are getting new tires put on your LEXUS....it should not cost a single cent more than what mounting tires costs to put on a HONDA. The tire prices may be totally different, but the LABOR to mount the tires should be equal. The mechanic is doing the same exact thing to both cars. It takes no more work to mount a tire on a LEXUS rim than it does a HONDA rim. I should know since I worked for SEARS for 6 years when I was in high school and college. Now, if you have aftermarket wheels or require special weights to balance the tire properly, then YES you should pay a little more because of the price of the additional PARTS is more. Same applies to oil changes, tune-ups, alignments, etc. The labor involved is pretty much the same as far as time is concerned as is any other car. Parts are more, but that should the only price difference.
Another thing to consider, which unfortunately I know from experience, is that shops don't carry insurance to cover your vehicle while in their care. Read down at the disclamer in small print at the bottom of most work orders as well as the signs strategically posted all around. The shop/dealer is NOT responsible for most damage that occurs while your car is in their custody. I know this because a very good friend of mine had his motorcycle in to a repair shop for repairs. The shop caught on fire with his motorcycle in it. It was badly damaged of course, and the shop was NOT required by law to carry insurance to fix it. It's called double imdemnity. You are responsible to carry your own insurance to cover for loses incurred while the vehicle is at an authorized facility. Check with your Insurance agent and see if I'm not correct. I did and was very surprised by the answers I got. Good stuff to know though.
I'm just sharing my experiences so you guys don't get caught off guard. Bottomline about the subject at hand is simple: (someone already said it) Know your own car that way it's harder to be taken advantage of.
09-03-03, 10:55 AM
#48
<------Multiple business owner for the last 10+ yrs.
Been there and done that for over a decade......Im not giving second hand advice.
I've had to deal with sueing and being sued...it's a sad part of business. When you operate outside of your market theres a greater chance of a lawsuit.
There are MANY ins. options for business owners. For the most part you only need limited liability,Fire etc.
Meaning that if the amount (lawsuit) exceeds the coverage then their personal holdings may be next (if they are not set up to protect themselves) some things are not worth the headache and smart buisness owners are not the ones who jump at a buck.
Business owners know that bargain shopping Lux car owners are the pickiest and quickest to say: "I'll call my Lawyer".
Also, if its out of their 'normal' business practice they are well within their rights to charge as much or little as they want.
If a timing belt change is a flat rate at a shop that specializes in Hondas, one would be pretty silly to expect that same rate for their Bentley.
Everything still has to be done within 'reason' but it helps to understand both sides.
Been there and done that for over a decade......Im not giving second hand advice.
I've had to deal with sueing and being sued...it's a sad part of business. When you operate outside of your market theres a greater chance of a lawsuit.
There are MANY ins. options for business owners. For the most part you only need limited liability,Fire etc.
Meaning that if the amount (lawsuit) exceeds the coverage then their personal holdings may be next (if they are not set up to protect themselves) some things are not worth the headache and smart buisness owners are not the ones who jump at a buck.
Business owners know that bargain shopping Lux car owners are the pickiest and quickest to say: "I'll call my Lawyer".
Also, if its out of their 'normal' business practice they are well within their rights to charge as much or little as they want.
If a timing belt change is a flat rate at a shop that specializes in Hondas, one would be pretty silly to expect that same rate for their Bentley.
Everything still has to be done within 'reason' but it helps to understand both sides.
09-03-03, 11:33 AM
#49
Lexus Test Driver
I'm not going to get into a big contest here about this since it's not even my thread. But I will say this:
I too have owned my own business for many years. I also ran many automotive shops in my day, so I do know both sides (consumer vs owner). I know the accounting side of things and profit margins. We should not be debating about that since neither one of us currently owns an automotive shop now. The point I was trying to make was simple: If you think that an informed consumer should pay more due to brand of car they drive because the shop decided that's only fair due to increased "liability", that is very much your right to that opinion. I simply am disagreeing with you because none of the reasons in the analogy you gave are correct or justifiable.
A mechanic, and I used to be one for many years and still do most my own installs, is not a brain surgeon. A mechanic gets paid first for what he does, then for what he knows (most of the time). Fair or not, that's the truth. A mechanic is a manual laborer. He uses his/her knowledge to work on a car, but mostly he/she uses their hands as a means to an end. I'm not saying mechanics are not smart. I'm not saying mechanics don't use their brains. I'm saying that 90% of the time, a mechanic uses his hands. They come up with a solution to a problem, but when it's all said and done they have to get in there and fix it. Just because a Bentley costs more than a Honda....Does that make the Bentleys timing belt (which goes around the same crank and the same cams)(not literally, but you know what I mean) more troublesome than a Honda's? Does it justify charging more labor to do it on a more expensive car? In my opinion, NO. If the labor book says it takes 4.0 hours, then that's what I should be charged. Not 4.0 plus a little something because I can afford it. That's ridiculous. Labor hours are based on the time it takes to do a job correctly, not how much a car owner can afford.
As for liability, again that has nothing to do with the price. Liability insurance, coverage, and occurance is part of doing business. If you as an owner do not factor that into your profit margin, then you're not a smart business owner. In other words, don't tell me that part of a price includes bumping up to cover a "possible, maybe, kinda may happen" occurance due to your own fault because that is not a fair profit margin. That is simple greed. If you tell me that due to circumstances beyond your control, you have to raise labor prices across the board, that's totally different. Insurance is for covering you in the case of something happening that is unavoidable, NOT designed to pay for your negligence.
We could go on and on with our difference in opinion, but again this is not my thread so.....
BTW, I am not speaking from 2nd hand experience. All of the information in both my long replies come from first hand experience with either insurance claims, businesses worked, businesses currently owned, or common sense. Emerald, for some reason this is a common thing with you and I, you seem to think you know me for some reason. I'm neither trying to be confrontational with you or trying to make you out to be a bad person. I'm simply disagreeing with your point of view due to the fact that the examples you used in your analogy are no reason for a shop to overcharge anyone. If you would like to challenge any statements I have made with FACTS, you are more than welcomed to do so privately. I'll debate with you for hours if you'd like there.
But for now, I'm not going to continue to hijack this thread any longer.
I too have owned my own business for many years. I also ran many automotive shops in my day, so I do know both sides (consumer vs owner). I know the accounting side of things and profit margins. We should not be debating about that since neither one of us currently owns an automotive shop now. The point I was trying to make was simple: If you think that an informed consumer should pay more due to brand of car they drive because the shop decided that's only fair due to increased "liability", that is very much your right to that opinion. I simply am disagreeing with you because none of the reasons in the analogy you gave are correct or justifiable.
A mechanic, and I used to be one for many years and still do most my own installs, is not a brain surgeon. A mechanic gets paid first for what he does, then for what he knows (most of the time). Fair or not, that's the truth. A mechanic is a manual laborer. He uses his/her knowledge to work on a car, but mostly he/she uses their hands as a means to an end. I'm not saying mechanics are not smart. I'm not saying mechanics don't use their brains. I'm saying that 90% of the time, a mechanic uses his hands. They come up with a solution to a problem, but when it's all said and done they have to get in there and fix it. Just because a Bentley costs more than a Honda....Does that make the Bentleys timing belt (which goes around the same crank and the same cams)(not literally, but you know what I mean) more troublesome than a Honda's? Does it justify charging more labor to do it on a more expensive car? In my opinion, NO. If the labor book says it takes 4.0 hours, then that's what I should be charged. Not 4.0 plus a little something because I can afford it. That's ridiculous. Labor hours are based on the time it takes to do a job correctly, not how much a car owner can afford.
As for liability, again that has nothing to do with the price. Liability insurance, coverage, and occurance is part of doing business. If you as an owner do not factor that into your profit margin, then you're not a smart business owner. In other words, don't tell me that part of a price includes bumping up to cover a "possible, maybe, kinda may happen" occurance due to your own fault because that is not a fair profit margin. That is simple greed. If you tell me that due to circumstances beyond your control, you have to raise labor prices across the board, that's totally different. Insurance is for covering you in the case of something happening that is unavoidable, NOT designed to pay for your negligence.
We could go on and on with our difference in opinion, but again this is not my thread so.....
BTW, I am not speaking from 2nd hand experience. All of the information in both my long replies come from first hand experience with either insurance claims, businesses worked, businesses currently owned, or common sense. Emerald, for some reason this is a common thing with you and I, you seem to think you know me for some reason. I'm neither trying to be confrontational with you or trying to make you out to be a bad person. I'm simply disagreeing with your point of view due to the fact that the examples you used in your analogy are no reason for a shop to overcharge anyone. If you would like to challenge any statements I have made with FACTS, you are more than welcomed to do so privately. I'll debate with you for hours if you'd like there.
But for now, I'm not going to continue to hijack this thread any longer.
09-03-03, 11:34 AM
#50
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I hate to say it but I'm with Em on this one. Most insurance carries a deductible. Just one $1000 claim can kill a profit margin for the month. I do book keeping for a couple shops here in Vegas that are very reputable and do quality work. They are NOT making money hand over fist like alot of us think. Most are lucky to break even. I'd just be sure to find out how many hours they're claiming it takes, labor rates and part cost. That's the best way not to get screwed.
I say we all buy some shop manuals, load up on tools and not have to worry about this again.
I say we all buy some shop manuals, load up on tools and not have to worry about this again.
Last edited by Vegassc400; 09-03-03 at 11:37 AM.
09-03-03, 11:48 AM
#51
Lexus Test Driver
Originally posted by Vegassc400
I hate to say it but I'm with Em on this one. Most insurance carries a deductible. Just one $1000 claim can kill a profit margin for the month. I do book keeping for a couple shops here in Vegas that are very reputable and do quality work. They are NOT making money hand over fist like alot of us think. Most are lucky to break even. I'd just be sure to find out how many hours they're claiming it takes, labor rates and part cost. That's the best way not to get screwed.
I say we all buy some shop manuals, load up on tools and not have to worry about this again.
I hate to say it but I'm with Em on this one. Most insurance carries a deductible. Just one $1000 claim can kill a profit margin for the month. I do book keeping for a couple shops here in Vegas that are very reputable and do quality work. They are NOT making money hand over fist like alot of us think. Most are lucky to break even. I'd just be sure to find out how many hours they're claiming it takes, labor rates and part cost. That's the best way not to get screwed.
I say we all buy some shop manuals, load up on tools and not have to worry about this again.
Remember that $60-80/hr labor rates factor a very good profit margin already. Mechanics, I know from experience, don't get $60-80/hr. We haven't even begun to talk about the profit margin on parts, which can be as high as 100% mark up on some parts. Trust me when I tell you that price gouging is pure greed, period.
09-03-03, 02:46 PM
#52
jmecbr900: 
I have never seen you post before. I dont know you at all....if I do, I apologize for not remembering.
Ive made my point and have nothing left to say...I see this getting personal and I dont have time for that.
I just want everyone to know there are always shops that will 'get you' for owning a Lexus and there are ones that try to stay within reason while in the market. Nothing is ever cut-n-dry in the business world.
The thread did get side-tracked and I apologize for my part in that folks
I am the Current owner of Preferred Image Motoring Products as well as its Parent company.
I have never seen you post before. I dont know you at all....if I do, I apologize for not remembering. Ive made my point and have nothing left to say...I see this getting personal and I dont have time for that.
I just want everyone to know there are always shops that will 'get you' for owning a Lexus and there are ones that try to stay within reason while in the market. Nothing is ever cut-n-dry in the business world.
The thread did get side-tracked and I apologize for my part in that folks
I am the Current owner of Preferred Image Motoring Products as well as its Parent company.
09-04-03, 09:37 AM
#53
Lead Lap
Preferred Image Motoring Products = P.I.M.P. !!! I've broken emerald's code!
Back to the original thread,... the labor values do change from vehicle to vehicle, but I think that shouldn't be hyped up as in the case with my alignment. Now for timing belt change, and water pump,.. some cars are insanely put together ( my 300Z ), so the labor is legitimately higher than a civic,... but should not be ridiculously priced simply cuz nissan's require more labor, but rather that specific model was labor intensive,.. if the guy at the shop made specific mention of SC400's requiring more work, and gave me specific verifiable tasks required that did not occur elsewhere, I might not have had grief with him. When the guy at the Z clinic showed me where everything was and what had to be removed to get to it, and I saw his price was lower and reasonable ( still quite expensive ), I felt very comfortable forkin' out the cash.
Now back to the original original thread,... existing parts for the supercharging of this system should be consistent with other applications abroad, and the custom parts should be marked up so there is profit recovery due to the dillegence of R&D ( I am a custom engineer - so this is the one thing i know ). I have done many custom options for Boeing and Applied Materials and we never upcharged for an existing part no matter where or how it was used. We charged for new parts that were created to make an option custom, whatever we liked and for the package as a whole for being configurable, testing, documentation, and installation.
( i guess this is bub rub )
Back to the original thread,... the labor values do change from vehicle to vehicle, but I think that shouldn't be hyped up as in the case with my alignment. Now for timing belt change, and water pump,.. some cars are insanely put together ( my 300Z ), so the labor is legitimately higher than a civic,... but should not be ridiculously priced simply cuz nissan's require more labor, but rather that specific model was labor intensive,.. if the guy at the shop made specific mention of SC400's requiring more work, and gave me specific verifiable tasks required that did not occur elsewhere, I might not have had grief with him. When the guy at the Z clinic showed me where everything was and what had to be removed to get to it, and I saw his price was lower and reasonable ( still quite expensive ), I felt very comfortable forkin' out the cash.
Now back to the original original thread,... existing parts for the supercharging of this system should be consistent with other applications abroad, and the custom parts should be marked up so there is profit recovery due to the dillegence of R&D ( I am a custom engineer - so this is the one thing i know ). I have done many custom options for Boeing and Applied Materials and we never upcharged for an existing part no matter where or how it was used. We charged for new parts that were created to make an option custom, whatever we liked and for the package as a whole for being configurable, testing, documentation, and installation.
( i guess this is bub rub )
09-04-03, 01:51 PM
#56
Lexus Test Driver
I'm gonna chime in one more time to bug you guyz....
I think NAZTY hit it right on the head. Charge more for the custom parts, but don't overprice the whole package "just because". That makes sense. Charge for the vehicle specific parts that took a lot of R&D, or charge more for the "new and improved" charger. Don't charge a ton just because you want to though.
Personally, I'm willing to fork out the money for a SC if the benefits are there. 100HP on tap for $5k. I think that's a fair trade. 100HP for $25k, that's silly.
I think NAZTY hit it right on the head. Charge more for the custom parts, but don't overprice the whole package "just because". That makes sense. Charge for the vehicle specific parts that took a lot of R&D, or charge more for the "new and improved" charger. Don't charge a ton just because you want to though.
Personally, I'm willing to fork out the money for a SC if the benefits are there. 100HP on tap for $5k. I think that's a fair trade. 100HP for $25k, that's silly.
09-04-03, 03:16 PM
#57
Back to the topic! UPDATE
Back to the topic. We are in the final stages of casting the custom intake for the Supercharger kit. I expect we will be ready to display the completed, direct bolt-on kit on my car by the end of this month- end of October at the absolute latest. After that...VROOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even though there is no NOS going on my car, it's gonna feel like it!! So I had to use the NOS smilie.
Altstadt
Even though there is no NOS going on my car, it's gonna feel like it!! So I had to use the NOS smilie.
Altstadt
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