Bimmerbill

Rodger, I am 100% behind you on this since at my age I will never turbo my car. What in the world will a soon to be 83 year old do with 600 HP. But this would have been great in my younger days. I honestly would love to have 300 - 325 HP and that would be find so I would love to add on to my headers, Supra mid pipe and Manzo cat back exhaust since I now have my suspension and this coming week will install my LS400 front brakes making it more safer to drive.

Congrats on the Mississippi State win at Omaha tonight, we watched the game and enjoyed it.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

It's just that for *maximum power* from a naturally aspirated 2JZ-GE build... to actually do it right and not just bolt a few things on you really have to spend a lot of money far in excess of an NA-T build, 1JZ-GTE swap, 2JZ-GTE swap, LS1/2/3 V8 swap or any other already powerful engine swap.... while still only having the *possibility* of getting perhaps as much power as Brendan's NA Supra (in the SF link several posts back) has made on E85.

If you read his thread all the way through you'll see that his NA Supra is very much a dedicated track car now and is not very street-able any longer in its max power tune configuration.

And if you look at what it cost Brendan ($25k USD invested in his car) it should give anyone some pause to ask themselves if that kind of financial dedication working with the right engine builder and tuner is the route they want to go over a turbocharged configuration.

However you don't have to go quite as far as he did to do something unique while making less ultimate power and while still using regular 91-93 octane pump gas. But it'll still be very costly.

Bill, I can appreciate this as well. Maybe heavy modification with a turbo isn't what you want to get into at this point and that's totally understandable. I recently chatted with a gentleman of 75 years just before he sold his '93 SC300 5-speed. He also was not interested in doing any turbo conversion to his car.

In my SC I previously very much enjoyed the 100% stock 225hp non-turbo engine mated to its 5-speed manual transmission with upgraded brakes, an upgraded suspension and the aforementioned Manzo M2 cat-back exhaust system (which I still have on my car today). The feel of the SC as a classic GT is what I like the most about these cars... and I had that already when my SC was naturally aspirated. I'm not removing my 2JZ-GTE and to go back to an NA engine at this point but it's an enhancement to the car rather than a prerequisite.

To realistically and somewhat affordably get yourself 325hp (which is a very respectable, modest and livable power figure) it makes the most sense to get it with an NA-T conversion using a modern 58mm or 62mm turbo with a standard 2JZ-GTE ECU for control. Keeping the power goal modest while focusing on reliability and remaining with factory turbo ECU can net a very livable and under-stressed turbo daily driver configuration for an SC.

It's just that when expecting to make NA power from a 2JZ (or 1JZ) one has to be realistic with expectations because getting significant gains in the 300hp range on race fuel in a pretty much track-only tune costs a lot of money compared to any style turbocharged configuration.

...

That's why I wanted to share the new video of the custom carbureted 2JZ-GE in that MK2 Jaguar sedan. It's not be the most powerful JZ engine out there but it's very unique and assuredly a lot of fun to drive with! It shows another of the possibilities that can be achieved for uniqueness above all other considerations.

The Toyota engineers designed the JZ engine family from the start with turbocharging and extreme durability with boost in mind. However if someone wants to go *really* custom and if the *feel* of the NA engine configuration is much more important than outright power numbers then an NA build can be quite interesting indeed.

The custom carbureted and custom ITB setups (respectively) posted earlier in this thread definitely capture that spirit well. They come at a high cost (especially Brendan's build) but they both sound amazing and provide a very unique experience after much dedication and custom work.

The most practical and realistically affordable route to 300hp+ is still an NA-T build or GTE engine swap but if on the other hand something very unique is desired at some expense involving custom work but without worry about a maximum NA power figure then there are a couple of interesting NA 2JZ engine builds to draw inspiration from.
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Bimmerbill

Good morning Craig,
Just a note to thank you for you comments. Just not sure what I am going top do now.
You mentioned the video of the Jag with with the 2JZ. The engine has been put in everything except motorcycles and airplanes. Just for giggles see if you can go back on "Barn Finds" to find the article about the 1960 Nash Rambler that the elderly man had built with a 2jZ. He had removed all of the electronics and made an intake manifold for two carbs and also adapted a distributor from a slant six Chrysler product. It is so dependable that he and his wife have traveled all over the country in the car. The article was within the past couple of weeks.

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

Sure, that would provide more power, but it would negate the "cost effective solution" half of my statement.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Bill, you're welcome. Truly with these cars there is no wrong way to enjoy them. They had versatile configurations from the factory in Japan and the U.S./Canada and over the years since they were first produced the many ways they can be customized to suit personal tastes has grown considerably. I have always felt that we were cheated in the U.S. and Canada by having no 1JZ-GTE engine option (and no factory manual transmission option for any V8 model SC's or Soarers) but that reality is very old news.

At your suggestion I found the article featuring the 1960 Nash Rambler with a custom carbureted 2JZ-GE swap. That's a very cool update to a classic and somewhat compact Nash! It's weird that the host of the video acts as if 2JZ-GE's never came with distributors in stock configuration (!) but looking at the video I see how he adapted the Chrysler Slant-six distributor with some machining and re-use of the original 2JZ-GE distributor's gear.

It's crazy that he gets 27-30 MPG out of that thing when only the middle of the three carburetors is active however that Rambler is probably much lighter than the average SC, GS or 1st generation IS chassis which helps. Plus with the older style carburetor setup and none of the stock emissions equipment there isn't much else to get in the way of it sipping fuel.

The only JZ engine variants that got that kind of fuel economy from the factory are the Japan-market only 2JZ-FSE (220hp) and 1JZ-FSE (200hp) D4S direct injection variants (both non-turbo and automatic only) produced through the early 2000's until around 2005 or so.

From what he says it needs a stronger automatic transmission than the 700R4 that he adapted. The 3.42:1 Ford 8" rear axle (with a Detroit Locker LSD!) is pretty good for a long distance cruiser like this. Getting the 2JZ's power steering pump and a PS rack adapted for that Rambler is a good call.

I'm glad he's preparing to upgrade the front factory drum brakes to sliding caliper discs. I once owned a car with drum brakes front and rear and I'll never use anything less than four wheel disc brake setups now even if it means retrofitting a car that never came with them originally.

It's very cool to see creative swaps of the 2JZ engine like this, especially when people throw carbs onto them. The owner doesn't say how much power the engine makes with all three carbs activated but it's probably much more than the Rambler had from the factory. It is a husband and wife cruiser car after all so it's not really about high power numbers for them.

Thanks for the alert!

Here is another site hosting their own version of the article and a video introduction and short drive with the 2JZ-GE swapped triple carbureted 1960 Nash Rambler:

https://bangshift.com/general-news/c...tor-yep-watch/

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Yep. As you said, a 5-speed manual or other manual transmission swap will improve power output to the wheels and generally provide a more involving driver experience. After that an NA-T build, or GTE swap is the next general level up from that at a big price jump over stock NA. I don't think many people swap the 1UZ-FE into SC300's though. It's much more common to see manual transmission swaps into SC400's though.

I'm not sure where on the price scale an LS1 swap or other LS V8 swap falls with SC's but it's certainly much more custom than an NA-T build or a GTE swap. Probably at that point the cost of the LS and all the components needed for it are compared to whatever the current costs for an NA-T build or particular flavor of GTE are at current time.

...

To all, for the record I'm not of the opinion that a naturally aspirated 2JZ-GE can't be a lot of fun or that it's impossible to get more power out of it than stock. In this thread I've only tried to offer some brass tax on just how steep the hill is stacked against making more power than stock with a naturally aspirated 2JZ versus even the mildest horsepower increases via turbocharging these engines.

Going further, that's why I feel that these few but interesting examples of very custom modified 2JZ's with any type of individual throttle bodies or Weber carburetors are worthy of inclusion in this thread. Usually they are not going to be a way to make much far more power than stock (unless someone spends the kind of money that LRG Soup @ SF aka Brendan has) and these routes aren't cheap or cost effective... but they are really cool and unique setups that emphasize a very classic style naturally aspirated engine experience to the maximum in my opinion.

Perhaps it's sacrilege to include these clips here but I just want to illustrate that this use of carbs or ITB's on engines originally designed from the factory as fuel injection naturally aspirated or turbocharged also extends to Nissan RB engines. Actually it's more common with Nissan RB engines, usually in conjunction with swapping them into classic cars of the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's.

Here's one such setup with an RB26 (2.6L) and another with an Australian RB30 NA (3.0L) bottom end both using carb/ITB's on each cylinder. The RB26 did technically have individual throttle bodies housed inside its original factory intake manifold but that was only ever intended for forced induction. Nothing like what you see below, yet it works so well just as you can see.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

And since this is a 2JZ-GE thread on an SC300 sub-forum, here are some videos of several naturally aspirated 2JZ-GE's using ITB setups

First, here is Brendan's (LRG Soup @ SF) MKIV NA Supra with his custom ITB setup:





And here's an S31 Z with a 2JZ-GE swap using a custom ITB setup (and a 2JZ-GTE VVT-i cam cover). I think this one may actually be a using a 2JZ-GE VVT-i cylinder head:



Here's another MKIV Supra NA (non-VVT-i) that has been converted to using ITB's. This may be from Germany or Austria.


And finally here's yet another Supra MKIV NA (in the UK?) that has had a custom ITB conversion. In the two videos the owner and his tuning shop are working out the kinks through first starts to smooth idle in preparation for fine tuning. He states he's not going for the most power but rather for a very unique and fun naturally aspirated setup .

Bimmerbill

Craig,
Just a note to say Thanks for the entertainment of the N/A 2jz cars. I will watch again tonight. I never get tired of seeing what different minds come up with no matter what kind of engine
Bill

1997Soarer

iTrader: (1)

I am curious as to who has the most powerful NA SC300 in the USA. I'm not going to ask who has the most powerful 2JZ-GE because a lot of the IS300 guys have stuff done and those newer cars just seem to respond to mods better than the non-VVTI motors do. And I don't know if there's any fancy ITB setups built that are shoehorned into ratrods or other makes out there that I just haven't seen yet.
The only ITB 2JZ car I know of in North America is Brendan's.
I have a SC300 and IS300 and they are both almost maxed out in the "stock NA" category. I don't have cams, lightened driveshafts, or ITBs, but I've done most of the other tricks to get to the point where I've almost run out of things I can do with the stock ecu still in place.

I keep forgetting who's screenname here is XXX on FB, but I'm almost certain RXRoger and KahnBB6 have chatted with me on FB in at least 2 of the groups

1997Soarer

iTrader: (1)

I've heard rumors of a ITB GE SC300 in Socal but I have never seen pics of the car or the engine. I first heard of it a couple years ago but I figured by now if it was real, it would've been spotted/posted by now

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Bill, you're welcome! I'm happy to give you some fun enjoyable videos to look over. I also absolutely love creativity. Don't get me wrong... I also very much love high horsepower numbers and turbocharging but I love creativity with any kind of interesting engine swap and special driveline configuration. It all comes down to what the owner wants most from their car... and the SC/Soarer chassis in particular is an extremely versatile one from 100% stock to all flavors of modified.


This I do not know but certainly the most powerful NA 2JZ-GE vehicle in North America that I am aware of is the same-- Brendan's MKIV. The SC chassis has about 300lbs more over the MKIV NA chassis so there is certainly an advantage in doing a full bore ITB build like his in that chassis just to save on weight.

However I'd love to see the same done with an IS300 chassis since they weigh around 3200lbs stock (I think?). And since the Altezza RS200 versions are famous for their 2.0L naturally aspirated 3S-GE BEAMS engines I think an ITB 2JZ-GE VVT-i in a 1st generation IS chassis would be a perfect fit.

I think you will have to go with an aftermarket ECU and get into dyno tuning in order to get to another level while staying NA. That along with custom cams, a fully upgraded valve-train enabling a higher rev limit, probably a custom intake manifold, a custom made header plus other lightened components.

My screen name on Facebook isn't any variation of "XXX". It's just my name. I'm not very active there but I do chat occasionally on one or two of the SC300/400 for sale groups and other SC/Soarer groups. It's possible we've connected there. I'm just far more active with SC's here on Clublexus and sometimes on SupraForums.

Someone has to have tried ITBs in an SC300 by now. If there's one in SoCal I hope I'll learn of it as well.

1997Soarer

iTrader: (1)

This is my SC300. I may be the farthest along NA wise, at least currently. I have yet to see anyone else who's at the same level NA as I am. Usually by this point people give up and just go turbo. I have a few more little things I need to put on like a P.E. kevlar belt, UR cam gears, efans etc. I've also considered redoing the intake tubing and maybe incorporating a Honda ARC chamber.
I've never seen any off the shelf 2JZ-GE NA cams so I don't have those. I don't want to go the route Brendan did and get custom cams made... that's the sort of thing I'd do if I built the whole head for ITBs. Every so often I consider the idea of a FFIM, but since I want the car to idle and perform better than stock at all RPMs, that idea always gets shelved. I still want a carbon fiber driveshaft.


This is my IS300. It's basically at the same level as my SC300 is except I'm still looking for a high flow intake (I have an APEXi panel filter in the stock box for now). When it comes to cams, the VVTI 2JZ-GE is in the same boat as the non-VVTI. There are GE cams out there but they all come in turbo specs so they're useless for NA applications.

RudysSC

^ Absolutely love it!! As much as I dig my GTE motor, part of me regrets taking such a simple and effective N/A platform and replacing it with something so much more complicated and harder to source parts for. Both of those bays are out of this world!

Bimmerbill

Rudy, love your comments re these two engines. This is the route I am taking since I am too old to pursue the turbo route which I had told Craig before that I would not be going turbo. I am glad that Brian has shown a realistic path to follow in the above pictures. Have a great day up there where the air is thin.

RudysSC

Bill - hindsight is always 20/20 I suppose! Not that I'm not thrilled with my swap, however, what was a 100% bulletproof and awesome set up is now much more finicky and harder to care for. It's probably the last project of it's kind that I'll take on in the near future. I've done a lot of swaps and wild projects the last 15 years of my life... and I love it as much as ever... However, as I get older and want to allocate time and money to other things (such as my house, vacations, etc) the time and money for such projects becomes a little less of a priority (it's hard to hear myself say that out loud sometimes lol). However - the love of all things fuel air spark certainly does not die!!