Headers for GS400, LS400, SC400 condensed thread
09-29-05, 04:52 PM
#16
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
08-05-05, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by BA_GS400
Yes, the numbers were "corrected" however, corrected data makes certain assumptions the key being that the engine being tested cannot change its own parameters based on temp and pressure variables. It is true that THEORETICALLY corrected numbers should allow direct comparision. However, if your engine changes A/F or timing or any other variables as a function of its factory design then a simple atmospheric correction factor will not include these sometimes large variables.
If you look at the performance change based on pressure and temperature alone it is not enough to offset my measured gains at the racetrack in my car. What seems simple is not usually so.
08-08-05, 08:46 AM
Yes, this is a header thread but many who are purchasing these already have the TC.
BUT... to say that the TC will give better results than headers really needs to be defined.
Theoretically a TC will give better 0-60 times due to the ability to launch the car harder than with the stock TC. The TC does not make more power. The improvement in performance is also much more dependent on driver skill. An unskilled driver in a TC equiped car could very easily loose to a skilled driver in a stock car. Once under way driver skill is less of an issue and all other things being equal the header equiped car will make more horsepower and will pull harder compared to a TC.
Using the dollar spent vs performance gained is subjective as MANY have spent $600 and more for center back exhaust systems that generate no shown power increase.
Bottom line is the stock manifolds are not designed to make power. Low noise, reliability and emissions are the design goals. Anyone that intends to maximize or improve their engines output will appreciate the availability of better flowing manifolding.
08-08-05, 12:38 PM
Cin,
I almost hate using your post as an example but dang if you don't continue to make it appropriate.
Again, this is a header thread. Not a TC thread. Yes, I understand the comparison and that is why I commented above and elsewhere.
Again, TC does NOT increase horsepower. TC does NOT make the car faster. It does give the car the potential to run 0-60mph quicker due to the potential launch improvement. Fast is top speed potential. Quick is the rate at which any given speed is obtained. I understand these terms are often interchanged so it is worth noting the difference.
Without LSD it is not that easy to maximize the TC gains of around 1/2 second. Just bolting on a TC without the traction and/or ability to put the added torque down is NOT going to allow you to "win" a race. Spinning your tires becomes MUCH easier with a TC and that is a sure fire way to LOOSE a race. Also, changing the stall speed of a TC is something that Lexus could easily do at the factory for no change in manufacturing costs. They set it at 1800-2000 for a reason and changing that WILL affect gas mileage and drivability. Most performance enthusiasts are comfortable with this trade off but the opinion is not universal.
It WOULD cost the factory substantially to change manifolding. Manifolding does effect emissions, particularly cold start emissions. Higher flow cast iron manifolding would be VERY similar in performance to the headers herein but would be heavier. Higher flowing tubular manifolding would be more costly to build than iron manifolding and speed of production would slow.
So far the only data we have on the manifolds is a gain in power, no sacrifice in noise levels and an increase in fuel economy.
You state that these headers are not some "big" HP improvement.... compared to what? Obviously nitrous, super or turbocharging would be considered a big HP improvement but in naturally aspirated form what other choices do we have? Any "big" improvements?
Bottom line is until more data is obtained it is speculative to what the potential is with exhaust upgrades. When someone pops in here and gives yet another negative opinion what does that help? If you are just trying to go on record with a guess to the outcome (without data of any kind or apparently any exhaust tuning experience) does that help the community?
Frankly, I have waited longer than virtually anyone on this board for these headers and I can wait a little longer for a fuller body of data in which to build from. I would suggest that virtually ALL the negatives have been expressed, recognized, addressed, and cataloged. Unless someone has NEW information of VALUE it helps no one to jump in and post baseless grumbling.
08-09-05, 03:03 PM
You got it. Not necessarily quicker 0-60 for headers by themselves compared to a TC by itself but quicker than a stock car.
Also, believe it or not a TC actually makes more HP and TQ at the wheels at a given VEHICLE speed in 1st gear below stall RPM. In my first quote I should have stated that it does not increase engine power.
Correct plus there will not be any part throttle reving below stall speed as compared to the higher stall TC.
Well, Cin probably was not intentionally being negative it is just my experience that often neutral statements will be considered negative and actual negative statements will be remembered and given more weight by those without the resources or experience to judge for themselves. Here are a couple of statements by Cin that I consider negative. Please understand that I am not angry... I am just concerned and at the end of the day this makes more work for me. All that I ask is for NO unsubstantiated negative statements. I also do not want unsubstantiated performance increase claims as that can have a similar effect. Here are the 2 recent negative examples from Cin:
08-09-05, 03:18 PM
Hollywood, thanks for the support but I don't see any true haters out there.
Regarding the picture you posted. That was taken and posted by gawd during his install. That is the drivers side which is actually the GOOD side as it has 2 decent runners and 2 horrible ones. The passenger side has 1 decent runner and THREE horrible ones. Here are pics of each side on an engine for comparison.
Drivers side decent runners are the front 2:
Drivers side back 2 runners are junk:
Passenger side front runner is decent and back three are trash:
08-25-2004, 11:29 PM
Here is a link from an Aussie who built 1.5" tri-Y headers for his early model 1UZFE. These usually dyno at 175-180rwhp. With tuning, less compression, less intake manifold efficiency this car dyno'd 241rwhp That is a nice increase from basically headers and tuning.
Now, I am not saying that is the level of gains for our engines. Just showing that the 1UZFE enjoys breathing.
Sorry, the post is old and the picture links are no longer valid.
http://lextreme.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=headers
08-10-05, 06:05 PM
The GS400 Y pipe is identical except that the GS430 has a monolith catalytic converter at the joining of the 2 pipes that form the Y. The GS400 has a resonator in this location except for California and Canada cars (any others?) that have the 3rd cat.
TXGS currently has a 1999 GS400 Y pipe bolted into his GS430.
08-11-05, 02:17 PM
I for one will be interested in the gains with stock tuning. gawd's car is running way to rich. I think the stock ECU can handle the situation just fine. Sure, additional tuning should make even better results but should not/is not required.
08-13-05, 10:42 PM
Actually yes, this is a bit premature, that said Loren is going on what I told him. We definitely expect the headers to bolt on to the heads and fit in the engine compartment. That is the basis of the covered range. This is like needing to install the first set in the GS400. They were designed primarly for this model but until they were actually installed we could not be certain.
ORDERING INFORMATION
S&S HEADERS INC.
6042 N. 53rd DRIVE
GLENDALE, AZ 85301-7775
ph 623-847-9000, fax 623-847-9009
email: techtalk@ssheaders.com
http://www.ssheaders.com/
Contact: Loren or Betty
Originally Posted by BA_GS400
For any one person's testing, I would hope that they are using the "corrected" numbers. We can only hope that the dyno operator's have properly set their system. Using corrected numbers should mostly alleviate before/after runs and any air temp or humidity changes.
If you look at the performance change based on pressure and temperature alone it is not enough to offset my measured gains at the racetrack in my car. What seems simple is not usually so.
08-08-05, 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Well that's a BUNCH of money (prob. $4-5K). Let's just focus on the headers alone. Assuming $600 for headers and $500 for installation, that's $1100. For that money someone should probably do the TC upgrade instead which will give much better real world gains.
But I'm not saying these headers aren't worth it. We just have very little to go on right now.
Well that's a BUNCH of money (prob. $4-5K). Let's just focus on the headers alone. Assuming $600 for headers and $500 for installation, that's $1100. For that money someone should probably do the TC upgrade instead which will give much better real world gains.
But I'm not saying these headers aren't worth it. We just have very little to go on right now.
BUT... to say that the TC will give better results than headers really needs to be defined.
Theoretically a TC will give better 0-60 times due to the ability to launch the car harder than with the stock TC. The TC does not make more power. The improvement in performance is also much more dependent on driver skill. An unskilled driver in a TC equiped car could very easily loose to a skilled driver in a stock car. Once under way driver skill is less of an issue and all other things being equal the header equiped car will make more horsepower and will pull harder compared to a TC.
Using the dollar spent vs performance gained is subjective as MANY have spent $600 and more for center back exhaust systems that generate no shown power increase.
Bottom line is the stock manifolds are not designed to make power. Low noise, reliability and emissions are the design goals. Anyone that intends to maximize or improve their engines output will appreciate the availability of better flowing manifolding.
08-08-05, 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by CinFulxGS4
Regardless of HP increase everyone wants to be faster and the TC is proven to do so along with making the car more responsive even on a roll. The general consensus is that it shaves a half sec off 0-60 and 1/4 mile which is what is important.
The headers is not some big HP upgrade as some would hope I don't think, just another Mod that improves flow... although this has yet to be proven in our particular application... I am sure it flows better, but we don't know if our engine sees it as a good thing.
I am sure the more people that put these on and then report on the butt-o-meter the more interest they will generate.
Regardless of HP increase everyone wants to be faster and the TC is proven to do so along with making the car more responsive even on a roll. The general consensus is that it shaves a half sec off 0-60 and 1/4 mile which is what is important.
The headers is not some big HP upgrade as some would hope I don't think, just another Mod that improves flow... although this has yet to be proven in our particular application... I am sure it flows better, but we don't know if our engine sees it as a good thing.
I am sure the more people that put these on and then report on the butt-o-meter the more interest they will generate.
I almost hate using your post as an example but dang if you don't continue to make it appropriate.
Again, this is a header thread. Not a TC thread. Yes, I understand the comparison and that is why I commented above and elsewhere.
Again, TC does NOT increase horsepower. TC does NOT make the car faster. It does give the car the potential to run 0-60mph quicker due to the potential launch improvement. Fast is top speed potential. Quick is the rate at which any given speed is obtained. I understand these terms are often interchanged so it is worth noting the difference.
Without LSD it is not that easy to maximize the TC gains of around 1/2 second. Just bolting on a TC without the traction and/or ability to put the added torque down is NOT going to allow you to "win" a race. Spinning your tires becomes MUCH easier with a TC and that is a sure fire way to LOOSE a race. Also, changing the stall speed of a TC is something that Lexus could easily do at the factory for no change in manufacturing costs. They set it at 1800-2000 for a reason and changing that WILL affect gas mileage and drivability. Most performance enthusiasts are comfortable with this trade off but the opinion is not universal.
It WOULD cost the factory substantially to change manifolding. Manifolding does effect emissions, particularly cold start emissions. Higher flow cast iron manifolding would be VERY similar in performance to the headers herein but would be heavier. Higher flowing tubular manifolding would be more costly to build than iron manifolding and speed of production would slow.
So far the only data we have on the manifolds is a gain in power, no sacrifice in noise levels and an increase in fuel economy.
You state that these headers are not some "big" HP improvement.... compared to what? Obviously nitrous, super or turbocharging would be considered a big HP improvement but in naturally aspirated form what other choices do we have? Any "big" improvements?
Bottom line is until more data is obtained it is speculative to what the potential is with exhaust upgrades. When someone pops in here and gives yet another negative opinion what does that help? If you are just trying to go on record with a guess to the outcome (without data of any kind or apparently any exhaust tuning experience) does that help the community?
Frankly, I have waited longer than virtually anyone on this board for these headers and I can wait a little longer for a fuller body of data in which to build from. I would suggest that virtually ALL the negatives have been expressed, recognized, addressed, and cataloged. Unless someone has NEW information of VALUE it helps no one to jump in and post baseless grumbling.
08-09-05, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by jbrady
Again, TC does NOT increase horsepower. TC does NOT make the car faster. It does give the car the potential to run 0-60mph quicker due to the potential launch improvement. Fast is top speed potential. Quick is the rate at which any given speed is obtained. I understand these terms are often interchanged so it is worth noting the difference.
Again, TC does NOT increase horsepower. TC does NOT make the car faster. It does give the car the potential to run 0-60mph quicker due to the potential launch improvement. Fast is top speed potential. Quick is the rate at which any given speed is obtained. I understand these terms are often interchanged so it is worth noting the difference.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
I know this isn't about TC's but I don't think either Cin or I said a TC increases horsepower. As far as quick vs. fast, mmmkay. So the TC makes the car quicker, ok. I guess the headers in theory have the potential to make the car quicker (e.g, 0-60), and faster (top speed) by your definitions.
I know this isn't about TC's but I don't think either Cin or I said a TC increases horsepower. As far as quick vs. fast, mmmkay. So the TC makes the car quicker, ok. I guess the headers in theory have the potential to make the car quicker (e.g, 0-60), and faster (top speed) by your definitions.
Also, believe it or not a TC actually makes more HP and TQ at the wheels at a given VEHICLE speed in 1st gear below stall RPM. In my first quote I should have stated that it does not increase engine power.
Originally Posted by jbrady
Also, changing the stall speed of a TC is something that Lexus could easily do at the factory for no change in manufacturing costs. They set it at 1800-2000 for a reason and changing that WILL affect gas mileage and drivability. Most performance enthusiasts are comfortable with this trade off but the opinion is not universal.
Also, changing the stall speed of a TC is something that Lexus could easily do at the factory for no change in manufacturing costs. They set it at 1800-2000 for a reason and changing that WILL affect gas mileage and drivability. Most performance enthusiasts are comfortable with this trade off but the opinion is not universal.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Right, and Lexus reasons aren't performance, they're keeping the engine quieter and improving gas mileage by keeping rpms lower by shifting gears sooner.
Right, and Lexus reasons aren't performance, they're keeping the engine quieter and improving gas mileage by keeping rpms lower by shifting gears sooner.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Neither Cin nor I are being negative. The availability of custom headers for the Lexus V8 is a great thing. How great and how good a value we don't yet know.
Neither Cin nor I are being negative. The availability of custom headers for the Lexus V8 is a great thing. How great and how good a value we don't yet know.
Originally Posted by CinFulxGS4
...just another Mod that improves flow... although this has yet to be proven in our particular application... I am sure it flows better, but we don't know if our engine sees it as a good thing.
...just another Mod that improves flow... although this has yet to be proven in our particular application... I am sure it flows better, but we don't know if our engine sees it as a good thing.
Originally Posted by CinFulxGS4
I guess the big question at this point is do the headers work well with our engine and it's fuel management / ECU or do they have no effect or negative effects.
Obviously we need more data but the data so far is positive and that would suggest the engine DOES like the headers.
I guess the big question at this point is do the headers work well with our engine and it's fuel management / ECU or do they have no effect or negative effects.
Obviously we need more data but the data so far is positive and that would suggest the engine DOES like the headers.
Originally Posted by Hollywood
If I was jbrady and I was doing this project to help the community, at this point I would have told the haters to go **** themselves and make thier own headers and thier own threads!
Some of you guys have gone too far and I dont think I need to point fingers.
People will be happy with the end results im sure, power and sound wise.
And GS430 stock is worse hahahaah!
If I was jbrady and I was doing this project to help the community, at this point I would have told the haters to go **** themselves and make thier own headers and thier own threads!
Some of you guys have gone too far and I dont think I need to point fingers.
People will be happy with the end results im sure, power and sound wise.
And GS430 stock is worse hahahaah!
Regarding the picture you posted. That was taken and posted by gawd during his install. That is the drivers side which is actually the GOOD side as it has 2 decent runners and 2 horrible ones. The passenger side has 1 decent runner and THREE horrible ones. Here are pics of each side on an engine for comparison.
Drivers side decent runners are the front 2:
Drivers side back 2 runners are junk:
Passenger side front runner is decent and back three are trash:
08-25-2004, 11:29 PM
Here is a link from an Aussie who built 1.5" tri-Y headers for his early model 1UZFE. These usually dyno at 175-180rwhp. With tuning, less compression, less intake manifold efficiency this car dyno'd 241rwhp That is a nice increase from basically headers and tuning.
Now, I am not saying that is the level of gains for our engines. Just showing that the 1UZFE enjoys breathing.
Sorry, the post is old and the picture links are no longer valid.
http://lextreme.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=headers
08-10-05, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by GILLEXUS
Do you have a pic of the GS400 Y pipe so I can see how much different they are to he GS 430 Or are they basically the same ? Icould only find pic that you had of the GS430 & LS430.
Do you have a pic of the GS400 Y pipe so I can see how much different they are to he GS 430 Or are they basically the same ? Icould only find pic that you had of the GS430 & LS430.
TXGS currently has a 1999 GS400 Y pipe bolted into his GS430.
08-11-05, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by RRocket
I think for us the bottleneck will be the "tuning" part.......
I think for us the bottleneck will be the "tuning" part.......
08-13-05, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by GILLEXUS
Hey has anyone seen the add that S & S headers has on their web site for Jbrady headers?.
The y show the for sell for "1990-2005 Lexus Sedan LS/GS/SC400/430 "
This header being able to fit the 90-05 LS,SC models? Does S&S know this
Is'nt this alittle premature unless S&S did some R&D that we don't know about
https://ssl10.mysecureserver.com/bos...namicIndex.asp
Hey has anyone seen the add that S & S headers has on their web site for Jbrady headers?.
The y show the for sell for "1990-2005 Lexus Sedan LS/GS/SC400/430 "
This header being able to fit the 90-05 LS,SC models? Does S&S know this
Is'nt this alittle premature unless S&S did some R&D that we don't know about
https://ssl10.mysecureserver.com/bos...namicIndex.asp
ORDERING INFORMATION
S&S HEADERS INC.
6042 N. 53rd DRIVE
GLENDALE, AZ 85301-7775
ph 623-847-9000, fax 623-847-9009
email: techtalk@ssheaders.com
http://www.ssheaders.com/
Contact: Loren or Betty
The following users liked this post:
OGGPoodle (07-30-20)
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
